This is an uncomfortable question for many "God" believers to grapple with, not to mention answer, as author James A. Haught observes in his book, "Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness," (Amherst, New York: Prometheus Books, 1990):

"Faith-based killing is a baffling field rarely studied by sociologists and rarely discussed in devout countries like the United States. The deadly pattern can be traced from the era of human sacrifice, through the Crusades, the Holy Inquisition, witch-hunts, Islamic jihads, wars of Reformation, pogroms against Jews, massacres of Anabaptists, ethnic conflcts rooted in 'religious tribalism,' and other tragedies. The spectrum of religious atrocities has amazing variety and persistence.

"This [is the] evil side of religion, the side few people talk about . . . ."


C'mon, talk about it, "GOD" BELIEVERS.

If "God" told you to kill someone, would you do it?



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 07:15PM by steve benson.

If I believed in God I would Kill anyone if God told me to. Maybe that's why I don't believe in God.

Nawhh, I wouldn't do it. I'm just too lazy...

. . . believe in an anthropomorphic being who is even capable of making demands on people. Some people do, of course. But increasingly, people are coming to understand the transcendent as impersonal -- not a person like us, but a "ground of being," a field of potential that only comes to full consciousness when it is embodied in people. That means that this entity is not really even capable of having a will separate from the will of any individual in whom It is embodied. Obviously, such a being cannot tell you to do anything.

You need to be careful, Steve, about making assumptions about the specific beliefs that people have. I have religious beliefs, but if I say I "believe in God," I mean something so different from what, say, a conservative Christian would mean that said Christian would probably consider me an atheist. And even the general run of conservative Christians would never think for a moment that God was telling them to kill someone. That sort of thinking belongs to mental illness, not modern religion -- and yes, despite your distorted and inadequate understanding of religious belief as a phenomenon, it IS NOT the same thing as mental illness.

What I really don't get is why you spend so much time obsessing on the subject of other people's beliefs. You spend far more time thinking about a "God" you supposedly don't believe in than most of the truly devout people I have known in my life. I've seen atheists describe themselves as "God-free." You just don't seem free to me, but rather imprisoned by your obsession with this.

Observer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> . . . believe in an anthropomorphic being who is
> even capable of making demands on people. Some
> people do, of course. But increasingly, people
> are coming to understand the transcendent as
> impersonal -- not a person like us, but a "ground
> of being," a field of potential that only comes to
> full consciousness when it is embodied in people.
> That means that this entity is not really even
> capable of having a will separate from the will of
> any individual in whom It is embodied. Obviously,
> such a being cannot tell you to do anything.
>

A from where, dear Observer did you receive this "understanding"? Let me guess... like J Smith, and all those believers before and after, you simply pulled it from your ass.

C'mon. This is religion. Anything is possible to him that believeth. (Your post clearly demonstrates that).

And I really don't get why, "Observer," you spend so much time obsessively responding to my posts about religious belief systems--yea, verily, obsessively observing and commenting on them as you do in your obsessively anonymous way (on a chat board devoted to the discussion of religious belief systems, no less).

Must have hit your holy hot button, eh?

If you don't like my posts, then quit obsessively complaining about them, move on and observe something else.

Geezus! :)



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:06PM by steve benson.

But, I'd be OK with just a little hypocrisy if it saved a few lives.

I doubt you are even near stupid. You are in good (bad) company- You are unfortunately normal compared to the much of the world. However that does not exclude delusional.

You are normal and a good person and all that but, the cultural delusion you learned is suspect. Nothing personal, If you'd been born in a different part of the world you would have learned a different one.

Many feel the mystical tendency in people is simply excess evolutionary baggage- Useful once for tribal cohesion, now morphed into ways of viewing the universe that can kill not just individuals but can lead millions to war…if god … you know…told someone it was like…a good war…and those people really needed killing ( and god was too busy to do it herself).

I like Observer's god.

[" ... this entity is not really even capable of having a will separate..."].

I'd be a lot happier if everyone’s god was so diluted.

But until then ,Atheists cannot be as “god free” as one would think while believers in imaginary gods have so much influence in our lives.

Disclaimer-

All the above was said in a spirit of sweetness and light, not worth killing anyone over..... unless god commands otherwise.

Athiests prayer "God protect me from your believers..."

I am normal (well, not in intelligence, but that's neither here nor there). I am not a good person. None of us actually are, at least not consistently. As far as cultural delusions, I can only say that I was raised from a very young age to believe there is no God. Both of my parents are atheists (or at least agnostics - now that she's older, my mom has her days). I have rejected their belief system, not because of the culture I'm in or the way I was raised. Cross-culturally, most people in the world believe in some kind of god. Even if you think I would have believed something different in a different culture (which I don't, necessarily), people who really believe in a deity, it seems to me, would be likely to obey him/her/it.

But, my guess is that most civilized theists today would reject any command for them to murder as, BY DEFINITION, not originating from their particular god. (Ya' know: "Thou shalt not kill!" being a generally accepted moral imperative.)

And what about those that have a literal belief in the Bible, and therefore, that God HAS INDEED commanded individuals in the past to take the lives of others--"Thou shalt not kill" not withstanding? I think many would respond that those days are past and/or that the prophets of old were on a "different level" than people living today.

Responses from REAL theists would definitely be enlightening, though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 08:01PM by Fetal Deity.

For the record, I'm a nevermo Christian who believes God would probably never ask me to kill anybody. Also, I'm not the kind of person who is all, yay killing.

But as I said in another thread, yes, I would. Anyone who seriously believes in an eternal, benevolent (in the sense of knowing the best and asking the best of His people), omnipotent God who rewards obedience and punishes disobedience would.

This bothers others. In another thread, I was called stupid and immoral for expressing this (even though I thought name calling was fairly taboo here). For the record, I'm neither stupid (IQ ~150) nor immoral...just consistent in my belief system. If God is good, and God knows best, both of which I believe, then why would I not obey a direct instruction from Him?

It does not bother me...although perhaps it's because I'm fairly confident that God would never ask me to kill somebody, or if He did, it would be someone who desperately needed killing, like Hitler.

I don't understand what the difficulty is. As I said in the other thread, police and soldiers kill on the orders of fallible men. If the infallible God told me to do so, why wouldn't I? What would you think of me if I believed in God but wouldn't obey Him? Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

I know some of you think my belief in God is a delusion, but it is not one in the traditional psychological sense of the word. The majority of the world believes in a god in one form or another; that can hardly be called abnormal.

Wait. You answered that question. You WOULD kill for your God, even though you are "fairly confident" that your God wouldn't ask you to kill anyone (why you think you're special in that regard, I have no idea, especially given religion's long history of "God" commanding all kinds of killing of people, up to and including the present day).

But at least you're honest about it.

So, please, step right up and join the planet's Killing Club for Christ (or for the Koran, or for whoever or whatever your deity of choice happens to be).



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 09:24PM by steve benson.

Elle Bee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>... yes, I would [kill in the name of/for God].

> Anyone who seriously believes in an eternal, benevolent... omnipotent God who rewards obedience and punishes disobedience would.

> For the record, I'm neither stupid ... nor immoral...just consistent in my belief system. If God is good, and God knows best, both of which I believe, then why would I not obey a direct instruction from Him?

Yow.

First, I'm trying to wrap my head around this "benevolent" and "good" God who "knows best" yet could potentially command you to overthrow the law of the land and basic ethical and moral standards in order to kill a fellow human. What is benevolent or good about that? And I sincerely hope that a Christian doesn't pop up to say it's not up to us to determine his purposes and commandments.

Also, why can't he go direct and do it himself? Why involve you?

Second and most importantly, the question arises as to how you know 100% for sure that the "direct instruction" is from him?

That's what the Lafferty boys said to excuse the vile, bloodthirsty and depraved murders they committed. God told them to do it. If so, why should we condemn them for following God's commands? That is what we preach that everybody should do (atheists included, according to some believers and their supporters).

> ...if He did [ask me to kill someone], it would be someone who desperately needed killing, like Hitler.

Why not just bring Hitler et al to justice? Why ask a believer (you know, those people who are committed to peace and truth and love and joy and righteousness) to perform an illegal and bloodthirsty act? Even secular authorities (which include atheists and others with all manner of types and brands and standards of ethics and morals) in every society condemn the act of murder. How can we say we worship a god who would seem to have a lower moral standard than a run-of-the-mill secular authority? Does that make any sense? Is it the highest form of morality in the universe, as we believers claim is SOP for God?

My impression of you, Elle Bee, is that you are a mainstream Christian, which I associate with being a reasonable person who is capable of thinking rationally, with at least a basic standard of education and knowledge. (This could be my first mistake!?) Yet you are seriously acknowledging that you could at any given moment receive a message from "god" to commit murder and that you would follow such a command?

This is where we should all get scared.

Does that not make your jaw drop - reading what you wrote and the implications of such thinking?

If I was thinking along these lines I would get me to the nearest available psych help in an almighty rush. Seriously.

And people want to know why non-believers hold believers in such little esteem (understatement). Especially here at RfM, where many readers and posters are well familiar with extremist religious views (having had same perpetrated upon them by family, friends, church leaders et al) such statements are powerful evidence that we should all be on their side, running for the hills far away from the rabid followers of a bloodthirsty god.

If a person can hear voices, see visions, receive commands from on high, and even speculate about killing others in the name of god, they should be committed and undergo thorough psych evals immediately and ongoing.

Elle Bee:

>As I said in the other thread, police and soldiers kill on the orders of fallible men. If the infallible God told me to do so, why wouldn't I? What would you think of me if I believed in God but wouldn't obey Him? Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

Oh my dear god.

I'm almost ready to give up.

PLEASE do not speak for me as a supposed fellow believer and say that everyone who believes in god should hold this same opinion (paraphrase from some of your other comments).

The problem with thinking that one would receive an important message from an infallible god (and that his infallibility should cause us to be obedient to any command, including murder) is that it is 100% open to individual interpretation; therefore, one's understanding of such a command is possibly incomplete or mistaken. The fact that you could even consider breaking a personal moral standard or a societal norm against committing murder is beyond scary. Surely one's last refuge should be our own internalized moral code that should kick in to tell us that a "benevolent" god would not command us to commit a capital offence. If we are somehow receiving such a message, hopefully we would recognize that something is badly wrong and would refuse to act on such a command.

Your casual acceptance of the possibility that god would command you to kill is chilling. The fact that you acknowledge you would obey has me screaming inside my head. This is compounded by your statement that all believers could not fail to agree with your take on it.

How is it "hypocritical" to uphold the most basic of secular society's ideals by refusing to obey a voice that commands one to kill?

I was a long-time, committed, practising Christian when I first arrived at RfM, with an abiding belief despite many negative experiences and disillusionments in various churches. I still shake my head to find that I have consistently understood the questions and conclusions of non-believers and even agreed with some of them on many points. This should be backwards - that I can see their viewpoints so clearly and identify better with them than with most of the self-described Christians who post here, as well as many I've interacted with in a variety of Christian denominations.

Even my "Bible-believing" pastor post-mo agreed with my statement that if there is no god, that answers a lot of the difficult questions. Yes, it surely does.

I see no "sin" in having doubts and questions and acknowledging facts and upholding reason. There is no way I can toe the party line (as many expect) when it comes to statements from believers that scare even me. I would never try to justify the unjustifiable. Like Mormon leaders and (many of) their followers do. Like Christian leaders and (many of) their followers do. If that leaves me hanging, so be it.

Posts like yours clearly show how correct atheists are to be concerned about the way in which some believers interpret their faith.

I can see why atheists say "God, save me from your people".

Seriously. Scary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 11:18PM by Nightingale.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not talking about getting some kind of vague impression from God or some burning in the bosom that I should go do something. I'm talking about if, hypothetically, God appeared to me and told me to do that. This has never happened and I don't expect it to. I'm not mentally ill and I don't hear voices. I pretty much believe if God wanted somebody dead, He'd accomplish it Himself without my help. Also, it's not like there's any reason God would pick me to do it. I also believe that it's unlikely that God would want anybody dead. God in Christ is a God of peace, as you said. I am practically a pacificist, and I kind of don't believe in the death penalty.

But if God really told me to do something in an unmistakable way (not just a "spiritual knowing" sense), then I would obey. The chances of this happening, though, approach nil for the above-stated reasons. Also, if something like the above happened, I would seek immediate counseling because even if you believe in the Bible, in terms of God-appearances, the statistical ratio of mentally-ill-episodes to real-God-appearances is really, really high...and when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras, kwim?

Yes, I am a mainstream Christian. You're correct that I'm well educated. I have a bachelor's degree and I'm working on a professional degree right now. Doing pretty well at it, too. I'm intelligent. I obey the law. I'm a good citizen. I really don't know what else to say, except that if you knew me in real life and could hear my tone of voice as I'm saying all this, you wouldn't be nearly as freaked out as your message sounds. To me, this is a purely intellectual or philosophical discussion, because the likelihood of this scenario is so incredibly low.

You said, "If God is good, and God knows best, both of which I believe..."

Obviously you can believe whatever you want, but that seems like a Pollyanna statement to me.

Look around at how brutal nature really is. So much suffering and pain even for innocent animals. We must kill to eat. We have disease and live without answers to anything. Humans starve and kill (he created human nature supposedly).

I'd have to argue right off the bat how you came to the conclusion that god is good because if you look at the big picture without the rose colored glasses, god is not all that good. Maybe not malevolent either, but not exactly good.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 09:38PM by steve benson.

Princess, Kitten, and Bud knew Young was a real god.

I think most would say that they wouldn't, but really they would.

They hold as role models people who set out into a wilderness with small children, knowing that they couldn't provide for their comfort and well-being, then watched their children die torturous deaths due to hunger, cold, or untreated sickness.

Why would they let that happen to their child? Because they believed that God told the leader of their church that they should head west. They put their children in harms way because of what God told some other guy.

Perhaps people would have an easier time with a slow death in God's name, than an instant one like shooting them.

If an angel came down to many of the TBM's that I know to kill, they probably would. It's easier to picture them obeying, than it is to picture them telling the angel to F-off and do it himself if he needs it done. I'd do the latter.

Wait, who headed out west with children who died? Is this some story from the Bible I missed, or is it a Mormon thing? (nevermo)

How about this: I believe in the right to self-defense, that if someone is using deadly force against me, I can retaliate with the same. That could be considered a God-given right, so if someone tries to kill me, and I kill them first, maybe God did tell me to kill by justifying it in advance.
I'm stretching it a little by substituting "God" for "the law" in this case.

I know atheists who would kill in self-defense, for gawd's sake, and don't need no god to grant them permission to do so.

In that situation, I would suggest you act quickly in that regard as circumstances dictate, and not wait for your "God" to dictate.

Otherwise, it could be too late and you would wind up, you know, like, dead.

Just sayin.'



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 09:36PM by steve benson.

I don't have that kind of a belief in God, but I'm wondering if God telling someone to kill can be compared to a non-believer's justification for killing, as in self-defense. There's a legal justification for self-defense, and nearly all our laws were originally based on religion. We just have governments telling us when killing is justified now, instead of people claiming to speak for God.
I'm in the military, obviously I don't wait for God to tell me to shoot back.

Let's hope God''s switchboard is active, lit up and giving you the thumbs-up before you have to take action on your own.

Unless, as you said, you don't wait to shoot back.

So, for you the point is apparently moot.

For others, they might just have to wait around for God to give the "all clear" to go ahead and waste someone who otherwise might hurt or kill them.

Hmmm, make it snappy, God. The dude's closin' on me with a butcher knife.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2011 12:08AM by steve benson.

When I was still a member, I'd sometimes ask myself what I'd do if the leaders of the Church suddenly announced that we had to kill ourselves, or other people.

I figured I'd decide that they were not the true Church of God after all, or that that particular leader had gone totally off their rocker, and I'd run for the hills.

If I was a Christian, in the modern American sense of the word, and God/Jesus/trinity/howeveritworks told me directly to kill someone else, I probably, being a typical American Christian, would. I mean, God is the moral authority on everything, so if God wants me to do it, it can't possibly be wrong. God would never command me to do something wrong or evil, unless it was just a test of faith, at which point he'd stop me at the last minute. But he already did that in the first part of the Bible, so I'd have to assume this wasn't a test.

Also, as a typical American Christian, I would have little self-worth, and even if some doubt crept into my mind, I'd shut it out with thoughts like, "Who am I to question God? Who am I to defy God's will?" And I'd be terrified that defying a direct order from God would send me to the firey pits of hell. So I'd have to comply out of fear of punishment. (As opposed to complying out of a sense of virtue.)

If for some reason I actually did defy God, and didn't go through with the commanded murder, I'd probably enter a spiral of depression and self-loathing that would likely include starvation/fasting, potential flogging, a quick bout with internet porn, and general misery, which would either end when I took my own life because I hated myself so badly and felt I deserved to live no more, went on some serious medz, or was "born again." Presumably again.

Yeah. It's better to just do as God says.

"I am calling upon God-the-Father believers, not you hypothetical 'iffer' types."

:)

But, like I figured, it appears we ain't hearing from too many in that category. As noted in the OP in this thread, the question goes where believers don't like to tread.

I guess we'll just have to go with what we can get.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:35PM by steve benson.

My reaction to your comments at first, asraelle, was to start composing a post distancing myself from the typical American Christian (if there is such a beast) as outlined in your post.

Then I realized you were being sarcastic.

Whew.

Because otherwise, I may have started screaming again...

Seriously, I have never heard such sentiments from any Christians of my acquaintance, and I know a whole big bunch of 'em.

I recommend my favourite movie, "Last Supper" for my answer.

"We're liberals. We do the right thing."- Paulie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 10:25PM by itzpapalotl.