I am researching membership claims in Italy for a broadcast media story there. Can anyone help color in the activity rates per unit in Italy?

FYI the cult claims almost 25k Italian members in 37 wards, 61 branches. My research is suggesting that average ward attendance is lucky to be 100 and branch attendance is lucky to exceed 25 people.

This math then is (37*100)+(61*25) = 5225.

Please return and report!

I attended 2 wards while I was in Italy in 2005
Both of those wards met in small business buildings. The one probably had about 130 people in SM, the other was more like 60 (in Milan & Florence respectively)

in 2006 wikipedia says Italy had 22,000 mormons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy

But I do know it has been in decline since 2004 at least.

In 2010 I was at the Firenze 2nd ward conference and there were tops 50 people there.

http://cumorah.com/index.php?target=main&wid=107



Official LDS Statistics
LDS Members: 22633
Missions: 3
Temples: 0
Stakes: 4
Districts: 12
Wards: 31
Branches: 71
Total Congregations: 102

Derived LDS Statistics
Approx. Active Members: 5658
Percentage of Members Attending Church Weekly: 25%
Average members per congregation: 221
Average active members per congregation: 55
LDS, as percent of population: 0.0389%
Active LDS, as percent of population: 0.0097%
LDS, as percentage of churchgoers: 0.021%
National population per LDS congregation: 569186

As of this last summer, there are only two missions in Italy. The Catania mission was closed, and the reason given was that the area had "matured" such that Italy no longer needed three missions.

Missionaries are apparently so successful there that they may soon be forced to drop down to one mission, what it was from 1966 to 1971. Someone on the RfM thread about this quipped something like, "And in similar news, Ford sales are so strong that the company will be closing many dealerships."

Edited: But wow, check out your stat on total congregations, 102 congregations for a country the size of California. Now that's impact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 11:40AM by cludgie.

In the early 90s, when there were four missions in Italy, there was an effort to open new areas. This resulted in a good two dozen units that had from 1 to six members. These units were called Groups and normally met in the missionaries apartments. During the early 00s when the Padova mission was closed and the number of missionaries in Italy was reduced many of these groups were closed because they couldn't maintain a missionary presence in the cities. At the same time they created additional stakes in Italy, previously there was only one in Milano. The result is that they closed even more branches to create the new wards that were required for stakes.

The reason I bring this up is because in Italy and other areas outside of Utah and a few other places, missionary presence is vital to maintaining an active membership. In Italy I can say with confidence that there are at least 15,000 people on the roles that have zero contact with missionaries. There are another 5000 that have maybe an annual contact from the missionaries. Granted I am making a number of assumptions but I think that the estimates are accurate. Given my assumptions, I think that your estimate of 5000 active members is above the mark. If I had a gun to my head I would say that there are only about 2500 truly active members of the Mormon church in Italy.

A few more numbers: In Roma and it's environs I would say there are only about 400 active members. In Napoli there are only about 200 active members. I am not real sure what that number would be for Milano, but since Mormons have been there for longer than Roma and Napoli I think a guess of 500 is pretty close. Those three areas are the most populated of Italy, all at over 4 million, and they only have about 1100 active members combined. If we then say that the rest of Italy, about 47 million has 1400 active members I don't think that is much of a stretch. There are a few fairly large cities like Torino in there but there are also some small and isolated cities like L'Aquila.

Just my two cents.

All that constant shifting of wards and branches and stakes and missions around that TSCC is so fond of... does it remind anyone else of a picky child who just moves food around their plate to make it look like they're eating?

> I am not real sure what that number would be for Milano, but since Mormons have been there for
> longer than Roma and Napoli I think a guess of 500 is pretty close.

I was at the 'Milan-West' stake center last month to watch GC. There were about 100 members in the morning and 50 in the afternoon.

mormonism in Italy is a joke. What an insult to that country.

Any religion can attract some followers if they have a heated building, some books, and a dude standing up at the front talking about something.

So, yes, there will be some Mormons in Italy. Those who would choose to sit in a ward discussing 19th century fiction need to have their heads examined. Most people in Italy would rather be out enjoying the food, the wine, the art, the architecture, the music, the history, the culture, and the people.

> Most people in Italy would rather be out enjoying the food, the wine, the art, the
> architecture, the music, the history, the culture, and the people.

and the coffee...

Wasn't there a recent RfM thread that they consolidated two missions to one mission. I recall they attributed this to growth somehow,it at least had a positive spin.

Thanks so much everyone for the intel.

A number of us were interviewed yesterday by the producers of the Italian version of 60 Minutes, who are producing a piece on mormonism.

Naturally the cult has bragged about membership numbers and the success of the cult in Italy, including the new Rome temple, and we are trying to provide backup sources to the show before the air date.

Any other useful sources and information to pass on would be awesome.

R.

The irony of it all is that LDS inc has the correct numbers. They are obsessed with numbers. They walk the chapel every Sunday counting people, they take role in every Sunday School class, they record everything. They know that they are spewing misinformation and are happy that the people who they are speaking to won't call them on their own BS.

There was a recent thread comparing claimed LDS members (by church, Inc) vs national census data for Mexico and Brazil. You might want to check it out for comparison purposes.

My nephew just returned from his mission in Milan and only converted lonely foreigners.

Your estimates for ward and branch attendance are probably about right on average. Actually I think they might be a little high. I served my mission in the south and there were many wards that were around 60-80 in attendance. I think the wards are a little bigger in the north so maybe about 100 would be right. Since they have created stakes in most areas I would say the remaining branches are probably pretty small. Maybe 10 members on the low end and 30 on the high end.

I had estimated even higher, but only using the magic rule of thirds, putting active membership at around 7,000 in the entire country. Of course, the LDS church defines "active" as "attending at least once per month." It's pretty easy to figure that the 7,000 or the 5,000 or whatever the number does not include the ones who have temple recommends, who number much fewer than the so-called "actives."

Another thing is that in any Italian ward or branch, the leadership probably includes or is even entirely made up of Argentinians and other South Americans. When I attended the Milan 3rd Ward with my son, almost the entire active membership was from Argentina, as was the bishop and at least one counselor. When I taught institute in Rome, only about 10 or 11 came out, and at least six of them were South Americans. And I'll wager that it's always the same Italian surnames rotating through all the leadership positions in any ward or branch.

Yeah, one of the wards I attended they had an investigator from Chile (where I served my mission) who was going to be baptized in a week.

He didn't speak Italian & he didn't speak English.
I asked how they taught him the discussions, and they responded that the spirit helped him understand what they meant even though they couldn't really converse (yeah right).

So I spent SM translating from Italian to Spanish for this investigator (he'd attended several times, but this was the first time he understood what they were saying), then afterward I re-taught him the Preach my Gospel discussions (the condensed versions) and re-did all the commitments with him, to be sure that he knew what was even being required of him.

...I don't feel bad about it though. He was gonna get baptized anyway, so at least I helped him to know the basics of what he was getting involved with.

On my mission in northern Italy, 2001-2003, the average ward attendance seemed to be roughly 1/3 of the membership on the rolls. However, the retention rate among new members was abysmal, perhaps 10% or so. Maybe less. Thus I could definitely see the average ward attendance being more like 1/4 now. If you add in current members going inactive and all the actives that move to Utah, 1/5 is not out of the question, which aligns pretty well with your number.

Any chance you knew an Anziano Stewart North?
He served up there from 2002-2004
(he was one of my good friends growing up in Idaho)

Doesn't ring a bell. I did so little moving around that I didn't get to meet many other missionaries. I served in 4 total areas during the 2-year stint.

Yes I would say more like 20% activity would be about right for the units I served in during 2005-2007.

Hi, I'm Italian and I live in Rome.
I know quite well all the wards there: Rome 1, 2, 3, 4. I attended church meetings for about a year (2010-2011).
Only 3 out of 4 wards have a proper building for the functions and they are rather small.
Rome 4 meetings are hosted in a hotel because they're still looking for a place to build their own church.

The wards were never crowded, except when they broadcasted the annual conference ( but it was only 100 people anyway)
Sometimes there were only 20 people.
In my ward (Rome 3) there were about 40-50 people though. Notice that 90% of the members are South Americans. There are few Italian members who are active.
Most of the new converts leave shortly after their baptism once they begin to realise what it takes and means to be a Mormon.
I knew a woman, an ex Catholic nun, who got back to her "old" faith two or three months after her baptism. When some missionaries visited her, she yelled at them saying that she was done with Mormonism.

I'd say that there are hardly 800-900 active members in Rome.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 02:59PM by heytherejules.

So is Roma 1 still in Via Bra and Roma 2 still in P.zza Carnaro? (Or was it Roma 3 in Via Bra?? I'm unsure anymore.) I mean, those were "free-standing," but not church buildings. Both were just ugly houses or villettas of some kind. In Via Bra the baptismal font was right there in the chapel, which was kind of weird. All the rest I went to, like in Ladispoli, Ostia, etc., were just store fronts. Any new buildings?

And I think that the more South Americans, the fewer Italians. The Italians seemed to resent having positions taken over by S. Americans, and would quit coming. God, there were some beautiful South Americans, too, who were so beautiful that they put the Italian women to shame. Did you know those three sisters from Peru? Wowzers.

> So is Roma 1 still in Via Bra and Roma 2 still in P.zza Carnaro?

Yes.

> I mean, those were "free-standing," but not church buildings.

True.

> In Via Bra the baptismal font was right there in the chapel, which was kind of weird.

...true, but the chapel has been renovated.

> All the rest I went to, like in Ladispoli, Ostia, etc., were
> just store fronts. Any new buildings?

No, except for the chapel that is being built on the temple site. I don't think it's going to be a new ward though. Most likely, Rome 2 will move there after the temple is dedicated.

> Hi, I'm Italian and I live in Rome.
> I know quite well all the wards there: Rome 1, 2, 3, 4. I attended church meetings
> for about a year (2010-2011).


You forgot to mention Rome 5, a small branch that was created last June.
Basically, the patriarch and ten families who used to attend Rome 2 now have their own branch. They meet at a hotel north of Rome.
Unlike Rome 2, there are no Americans and/or South Americans.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2012 11:51AM by Thomas $. Monson.

Yay! I'm home from work now and glad to see that this thread is still up.

Roma 5: Is that Perticaroli & Co.? Lotitos? Who is the patriarch? It's bound to be one of the long-timers, right? I know that De Feo is SP. I used to work with him and he was DP when I was there.

God, sure want a Lavazza cafffffe right now. With a cornetto.

I would gladly answer your questions, but this forum is monitored and I prefer not to mention anyone's name here.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to write private messages, if I'm not mistaken...

If you're interested, go through board admin, Susan I/S, etc.

You can write me here: tommymonson at trashmail.net
The address will be deleted in three days (I will give you a new one in private).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2012 01:10PM by Thomas $. Monson.

Thanks again everyone. This is exactly the sort of anecdotal reporting I was hoping for. Anyone reading this thread can get a real sense of the rise and demise of the cult in Italy. For your reading pleasure here is the current official description of church status in Italy from the church website.


"Members have been in Italy since 1850.

First among missionaries to Italy in 1850 was Elder Lorenzo Snow, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He and three other missionaries preached to the French Protestants in Piedmont Valley. Several Church publications were translated into French. By 1855, 50 members had emigrated to America and membership was 64. Progress was interrupted by the anti-Church activity outside of the Valley and the heavy legal requirements. Finally, after years of unsuccessful attempts, in 1964 the Church was allowed to resume missionary efforts. The first congregation of Latter-day Saints in Italy was organized on March 20, 1966, in Brescia.

The first Italian mission was opened in Florence on August 2, 1966. After that time missionaries were sent to many other Italian cities and the number of the members grew rapidly. By 1967, there were 66 members divided into two Italian congregations and seven congregations with both Italians and United States military servicemen. In 1985, membership was 12,000, and in 1990, it was 14,000.

In 1993, Italy gave formal legal status to the Church. That December, 50 Church missionaries were invited to sing on Vatican Radio from St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican. In 2012, the Italian government granted the Church official status as a church and “partner of the state.” This legal status gives the Church greater freedom to do more good, both as a church and as a social institution."

> For your reading pleasure here is the current official description of church status in Italy
> from the church website.


>
> In 2012, the Italian government granted the Church official status as a church
> and “partner of the state.” This legal status gives the Church greater freedom to do more
> good, both as a church and as a social institution."



Hm, I have just reread the whole text of the law and I can't find a sentence that could be translated as "partner of the state"...

rodolfo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FYI the cult claims almost 25k Italian members in
> 37 wards, 61 branches. My research is suggesting
> that average ward attendance is lucky to be 100
> and branch attendance is lucky to exceed 25
> people.
>
> This math then is (37*100)+(61*25) = 5225.

A 20% activity rate in a western European nation? Inconceivable. In most of continental Europe, TSCC consists of American expats, mishies, the women who "feel the spirit" burning like a fire when they meet a cute mishie, and hungry immigrants who are only there for the free food.

We just don't have that many starving immigrants, desperate spinsters, and bored expats anymore.