I tell ya, this peace-on-earth-goodwill-toward-men God thing is killin' me.

As author James A. Haught observes in his book, "Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness," (Amherst, New York: Prometheus Books, 1990, updated, pp. xxi-xxiii):

" . . . [T]he tendency of religion [is] to spawn bloodshed and suffering, in all lands and all centures. Time after time, in widely varied ways, faith spurs some believers to commit barbarism. The problem is a monster with a thousand faces. Millions of people think religion makes believers kind and brotherly, but there's an opposite side, a deeply disturbing one. Why does religion impel some people to kill? No satisfactory answer has been found to this enigma. . . .

"Faith-based killing is a baffling field rarely studied by sociologists and rarely discussed in devout countries like the United States. The deadly pattern can be traced from the era of human sacrifice, through the Crusades, the Holy Inquisition, witch-hunts, Islamic jihads, wars of Reformation, pogroms against Jews, massacres of Anabaptists, ethnic conflcts rooted in 'religious tribalism,' and other tragedies. The spectrum of religious atrocities has amazing variety and persistence.

"This [is the] evil side of religion, the side few people talk about . . . ."
_____


Behold, its latest manifestation:

"Bomb Hits Egypt Church at New Year's Mass, 7 Dead"
by Maggie Michael
Associated Press
1 January 2011

"CAIRO – A car exploded in front of a Coptic Christian church as worshippers emerged from a New Year's Mass in the Egyptian city of Alexandria early Saturday, killing at least seven people, officials said.

"After the blast, enraged Christians emerging from the church clashed with police and stormed a nearby mosque, prompting fights and volleys of stone throwing with Muslims, police and witnesses said — a sign of the sectarian anger that has been arising with greater frequency in Egypt.

"Nearly 1,000 Christians were attending the Mass at the Saints Church in the Mediterranean port city of Alexandria, said a priest at the church, Father Mena Adel. The service had just ended, and worshippers were leaving the building when the blast went off, about a half-hour after midnight.

"'I was inside the church and heard a huge explosion,' Adel told The Associated Press. 'People's bodies were in flames.'

"The blast came from a car parked outside the church, but police said they were still investigating whether the car had been rigged with explosives or if a bomb had been placed under it. Witnesses reported seeing the charred chassis of the destroyed car, with the remains of several bodies nearby and dozens wounded.

"The Interior Ministry said in a statement that seven people were killed and 24 wounded. Alexandria's governor, Adel Labib, put the death toll as high as 10.

"There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the blast. Labib immediately blamed al-Qaida, pointing to recent threats by the terror group's branch in Iraq to attack Christians. It was not clear, however, if Labib had firm evidence, and he may have intended more to deny any homegrown Muslim-Christian tensions in Egypt.

"'The al-Qaida organization threatened to attack churches inside Egypt. This has nothing to do with sectarianism,' he told state TV.

"After the explosion, some Christians from the church clashed with police in anger over the blast. The Christians hurled stones at police and a nearby mosque, chanting, 'With our blood and soul, we redeem the cross,' the witnesses said.

"An AP photographer at the scene said the protesters stormed into the mosque, throwing books inside out onto the street. The protest sparked clashes with Muslims, as both sides began throwing stones and bottles at each other in the streets.

"The attack comes at a time of rising sectarian tension in Egypt and the broader region. In November, hundreds of Christians rioted in the capital, Cairo, smashing cars and windows after police violently stopped the construction of a church. The rare outbreak of Christian unrest in the capital left one person dead.

"Christians are believed to make up about 10 percent of Egypt's mainly Muslim population of nearly 80 million people, and they have grown increasingly vocal in complaints about discrimination. There have been occasional attacks targeting Christians — most notably, in January 2009, seven Christians were killed in a drive-by shooting on a church in southern Egypt during celebrations for the Orthodox Coptic Christmas. The Saints Church in Alexandria targeting early Saturday also came under attack in April 2006, when a man with a knife stabbed worshippers.

"At the same time, al-Qaida-linked militants have carried out a campaign of attacks against Christians in Iraq, killing 68 in a church siege in October and two more Christians in attacks in Baghdad on Thursday.

"The attacks in Iraq have an unusual connection to Egypt. Al-Qaida in Iraq says it is carrying out the campaign of anti-Christian attacks in the name of two Egyptian Christian women who reportedly converted to Islam in order to get divorces from their husbands. The Coptic Church forbids almost all divorce, meaning leaving the religion is sometimes the only option to escape an abusive or unhappy marriage.

"The two women have since been secluded with Coptic Church authorities. Islamic hard-liners in Egypt have held frequent protests in past months, accusing the Church of imprisoning the women and forcing them to renounce Islam and return to Christianity.

"Al-Qaida in Iraq says it is carrying out attacks on Christians in that country until Egyptian Church officials release the two women. The Church denies holding the women against their will."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_church_attack
_____


Geezus.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 02:39AM by steve benson.

Each side kills a few here, and there, and praises their respective gawd. All done for crazed ideology, territory, and fear, because they cannot make any meaningful difference in the world, except to be destructive.

It says a lot that this killing is baffling, because it is not well studied. It is rarely discussed, because religion is generally off limits to questioning, especially about its negative aspects. It gets special treatment.

I have read about many similarities not just in cult leaders, but in religious leaders who are considered mainstream. I have not looked very hard for answers, but also have not seen this discussed in regular media. No one wants to question why the personalities of religious founders can be similar, and why one movement may die, one may be small, and one may go mainstream or global, but they all have leaders who are crazy. People don't want to ruin their fairy tale "histories", because their religions have to remain as exalted, and pure as their gawds.

Also the right-wing authoritarian personality is prone to persecutions of groups considered outside their idea of normal, and they gravitate towards religion.

It's ironic this mentions another attack related to two women, who are generally not treated well in Islamic societies. Do they want to move them from being locked up in a Coptic Church so they can be locked up in their former families' homes?

" Do they want to move them from being locked up in a Coptic Church so they can be locked up in their former families' homes?"

I would say no to the above...They will most likely beat the women and stone them to death in the main square in front of everyone so other women will behave.

Imagine what a world this would be if people killed because of political ideology, or for profit, or race, or for territory or natural resources or food or the color red or the color blue.

Fortunately it is only the religious zealots who are violent.

Most profit-mongers do not claim to be bringing peace on earth and alignment with God's wishes (exception: Ted Haggard, et.al.). Religious leaders do.

When religions bring strife instead of peace, we are right to call them on the hypocrisy. When religions bring intolerance and label it "tolerance and love," we are right to call them on it.

The fact that people do bad things for reasons other than religion, does not make it okay to do bad things in the name of religion.

We do not excuse violence propagated in the name of political ideologies, and we don't excuse it in the name of religion. But when we point out the instances when religion is the cause, or when religion is a major factor, eighthman gets all upset.

Religious zealots make everything worse. Whatever other strife-causing factors are present, religion amps them up. For example, religion makes compromise more difficult between Christians and Muslims in Egypt.

So .... it would be really nice if we could magically pull religion out of the mix and get on with working out a way to share territory or natural resources.

eighthman: "Don't talk about that."

Brilliant, eighthman, brilliant.

What a tool.

I guess Mr. Haught never picked up a history book or watched the national news in the US or saw Mel Brooks's "History of the World Part 1". Look up the "inquisiton mel brooks" on youtube.

It seems the evil side of religion is about the only aspect covered by most secular media.

contributes more to world peace and universal good over and above that of any other institution.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, but keeps trying to project the image that it is Mother Goose to the rest of the world, is it then Mother Goose or is it, in fact, still just a duck?

You obviously see Mother Goose there. That's a nice fantasy until one gets hungry enough and then realizes that she's mighty small for a goose...

Then, of course, there's always Allah's atrocities, too.

(see Robert Spencer, "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)," [Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc., 2005, 270 pp.]; and Sami Alrabaa, "Veiled Atroctities: True Stories of Oppression in Saudi Arabia" [Amherst, New York: Prometheus Books, 2010, 275 pp.]

All done with the blessing and according to the command of God.

Aren't God and his devoted followers supposed to be above mimicking the violence of fallen humankind?

Eighthman (with his hands firmly planted over ears): "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 02:46PM by steve benson.

Just because there are many diseases that cause illness, does that mean we shouldn't fight one disease just because there are other diseases too?

Religion is ONE of the diseases that causes violence. Sure, there are many more. I don't think we can get rid of all disease, but IMO we should work on getting rid of the diseases we can limit.

as you say, OnceMore, "point[ing] out the instances when religion is the cause [of violence]".

Look at the subject line: "Happy New Year! Look What God Hath Wrought:"

Also, who are the "We [who] do not excuse violence propagated in the name of political ideologies"?

eighthman, What God hath not wrought is peace.

Okay, I'll remove "we" if you prefer, and say that I, personally, do not excuse violence propagated in the name of political ideologies.

But, by saying "we," I was attempting to include you, eighthman, as a religious person. Or was that a step too far, since you do excuse violence by saying something on the order of "everyone does it, so don't pick on religious people when they do it in the name of God"? -- I can't figure out what your argument is.

In Egypt, belief in a particular brand of God is playing the major role on the violence stage. So, what's your point?

Whether these free-will creatures (we) choose to do good or ill is all on us as individuals.

I am with you on the no violence thing to a point. One must protect oneself from those who choose to do ill.

There are non-religious people who choose to do good. There are non-religious people who choose to do ill. There are religious people who choose to do good. There aren't religious people who choose to do ill... at least not consistently. That, in my view, does not compute.

That is where truth comes in. If a person chooses to engage in violence because he or she thinks that is what God wants done, is that evil? I think it usually is. It probably boils down to ignorance. Also, religion is often used as an excuse for violence when there is also some underlying conflict of a different nature.

There always has been, and there will -- for the foreseeable future -- be conflict, both secular and religious. To single out religious conflict and then use it as an argument against the existence of a creator is a big mistake. If you don't think that's what the original poster intends, you might want to reconsider.

Try this for starters--

"Cruelty and Violence in the Bible," at: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 02:17PM by steve benson.

. . . about God actually being nothing but bloody, violent humans.

You know, human-concocted and human-modeled.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,68879,69155#msg-69155


And I see that you have no answer for the actual calls to violence (not to mention the actual violent action), as found in the "holy" Bible.

That's right. You don't talk about such things.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 03:02PM by steve benson.

And on that point I don't disagree. Ancient tribal warfare being attributed to the will of one's God was widespread at the time of the Old Testament.

. . I see that you are essentially admitting that the Bible is a human-created fable, in which murdering humans conjure up a God crafted--behold!--in their own image.


Glad I and others finally got you to talk about that, instead of hiding behind your God-ordained "free will" cop-out.

Earth to eighthman: Your God of free will-giving was created by humans, using their own imaginative will in doing so.

Chuckle. Talk about "deep."

I could walk through the deepest recesses of your mind and never get my feet wet. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 03:11PM by steve benson.

What I was trying to agree with was that those passages contained in the web address you linked to are likely not inspired by God.

Most of what people attribute to God's will, or the devil's for that matter ("the devil made me do it") are simply their attempt to justify their actions in their own mind.

You don't know, do you? You're stumbling all around that question.

See? You've created a monster that you can't explain or control (except if you simply admitted that your God is human created--which you won't do since you have too much emotionally invested in the original superstition-grounded notion of your "God-exists" proposition to even go there).

Humans created your God in their image and when your God thusly begins to talk and act like the bloody, violent humans who created him, you don't have an answer, except to claim that you supposedly know that such God talk in the Christian canon didn't come from God.

You slay me, so to speak.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 03:31PM by steve benson.

eighthman, you wrote "There aren't religious people who choose to do ill...at least consistently. That, in my view, does not compute."

Seriously?! What do you call terrorists? They are extremely religious people (or do you only consider Christians religious?) and their existence is to do ill, consistently.

eighthman Wrote:
>
>
> That is where truth comes in. If a person chooses
> to engage in violence because he or she thinks
> that is what God wants done, is that evil? I think
> it usually is.

Usually....USUALLY?! Unless of course YOUR god, or YOUR prophet, or YOUR book wants it done? THEN it's not evil? Thanks for pointing out EXACTLY why atheists like me are disturbed by such poor reasoning abilities.

If you try to live a good life, and someone tries to take that life, but you prevail by killing your attacker, is that God's will? Maybe, maybe not. Would he choose sides? Possibly not. I don't know.

Saying it's God's will doesn't make it so. Saying it's not God's will doesn't make it so.

. . . and even then you can't figure out whether his followers are doing the free-willing thing according to God's will, or not.

How convenient: You create a mythological creature you can't explain.

And so religion goes . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 03:17PM by steve benson.

Trying to do so for others is typically an exercise in futility.

Go ahead and speak for God. You can do it (at least you've been trying to do it throughout this thread).

See? You've created a God whose words and actions condoning cruelty and violence you can't explain, other than to say God didn't know what he was talking about there, since he supposedly wasn't the one doing the talking.

Behold, eighthman has just, in one miraculous swoop, eradicated the parts of the Bible he doesn't like that were written in the voice of God.

It must be nice being your God's prophet in the latter days. :)

We have free will -- to the extent allowed by our physical existence.

We all have the ability to choose.

when you are doing exactly that. You create a straw-man God and then knock him down.

Again, I ask you: Did your God tell you to come here and declare that those violent and cruel parts of the Bible, as eventually canonized and published, weren't inspired by God after all?

You sound like Jospeh Smith.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 03:47PM by steve benson.

Because it sounds like both sides need a good smack upside their heads.

:-)

Or the millions who lost their lives in order to enforce the primacy of Einstein's Relativity?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 02:14PM by steve benson.

Wait. In reality, your "God" is nothing more than a violent, bloody human.

"Don't talk about that! Don't talk about that!"

Haught has got you pegged. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 02:13PM by steve benson.

I went to BYU, so I ain't much well edukated, but I'm pretty sure that there were no GREAT SCIENCE WARS in ANY Century, and I'm fairly certain that the Theory of Relativity did not require bloodshed to be accepted...

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 02:25PM by steve benson.

My Mom is a Benson. As a kid I was proud to be related to your Grandfather. As an adult, I'm proud to be related to you.

Hi Steve
It's true that more people were killed in the name of Religion than for any other reason, but having said this, do you have a problem with Christians (like myself) who believe in loving ones fellow man, doing good to even ones enemies and forgive others? That's how I personally percieve and believe Christ taught and that man makesthe choice to kill one another in the name of their respective faiths'
I respect your atheism as being your post-mormon path and am not critisizing you, just simply asking as a fellow ex-mormon who hose another path.
Thanks, Shalom and a hopefully still good year! :)

Start preaching your "Shalom" to the followers of that bloody and cruel Bible, wherein the ugly nature of their God (and yours) is revealed for all to see.

Actually, what it reveals is human nature, since it was humans who made up your God in the first place.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 03:23PM by steve benson.