I see some parallels between Mormonism and Islam.

People probably think I'm crazy for thinking this. The comparisons are mostly on strict traditions and harsh punishments, disowning, and shunning. Not based on doctrine, except for also accepting a man-prophet like ol JOE.

They also have their version of the Word of W. which is mostly no alcohol and some pork.

Anyway, I saw a trailer for a documentary that was about how Mohammad used the bible and other local writings for the Koran. I've read some of it.

Since I no longer believe in any religion and have come out of my own. I'm interested in other man invented religions and how they duped so many people.

Anyway, just curious if anyone had any book suggestions, documentary suggestions etc.

No offense intended to anyone.

There are more connections between Mormonism and Islam than even the ones you've noticed. Both are Abrahamic religions, so there are some doctrinal similarities based on that. Also, Joseph Smith was somewhat influenced by Islam, as shown by his statement that he would be a "second Mohammed". The First Vision story parallels the revelation of the Koran, except with the angel Moroni instead of Gabriel. Even the history has parallels, with the FLDS and the Shiites both being smaller breakaway groups believing in following the bloodline of the charismatic leader.

Good points, I'll continue my research.

Have you read "The End of Faith"? It spends quite a bit of time on Islam. A great book.

I second this.

Since I don't encounter too many Muslims, I haven't felt the need to do much research. I've read the Quran itself, but that's about as far as I've gone. The only thing I can offer is this: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm . There's also a bible and bom version

Personally, I think there's a strong comparison between Judaism and Islam, especially at the fundamentalist/fanatic level on both sides. They're much more alike than different. It amazes me that they're at each others' throats in the Middle East when they seem to be cut from the same cloth.

Islam inherits most of the crap that the Old Testament tradition brings with it up until Abraham

Literal and recent adam and eve, noah, global flood, even a variant of the tower of babel with moses. Not to mention the problems of moses in Egypt for which archaeology doesn't support it.

As a lover of science, I think Hamid Al-Ghazali is particularly notable for killing what science flourished in the golden age of Islam and changed it's course into much of what it has become today.

I also recommend Harris' The End of Faith, but the most comprehensive non-PC texts you will find about Islam and the Qu'ran would be almost anything by Robert Spencer. He's written several books about Islam and relies solely on Islamic sources. You can also find links to "Islam 101" and "Blogging the Qu'ran" on the blog jihadwatch.org, of which Spencer is the main editor and founder.

I'm reading a book called "Religion Explained" by Pascal Boyer. It's absolutely fascinating, but a slow read for me.

The book is from an anthropological / how the human brain works standpoint. He's not out to prove or disprove anything - just to explain how the human brain works and how it processes religion.

I don't even know how to summarize it without writing quite a bit and I'm only 1/2 way through.

I've mentioned this book in previous threads, its a great read and you'll learn plenty about christianity, judaism, and zoroastrianism as well. Its not about debunking, its about illuminating, so something to read alongside Harris with quite a different agenda.

http://www.amazon.com/In-Shadow-Sword-Global-Empire/dp/0385531354/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350939963&sr=8-1&keywords=sword+islam

Hey bc, if you really want a fascinating but significant challenge, read this one. It will definitely be influential for a long time to come, but it requires very intense focus, a major brain workout:) There are some good interview clips of him as well if you use the google.

http://www.amazon.com/Incomplete-Nature-Mind-Emerged-Matter/dp/0393049914/ref=pd_sim_b_1

When I lived in an Islamic country I made sure to read the Koran while I was there. Even though I am not religious, I am still very interested in religions. Anyways, the Koran is possibly one of the most ridiculous religious texts I have ever read.

I would sum of the Koran by comparing it to the Bible, except that it is a bad copy. It is significantly more dull and by far more contradictory. Not only that, it attempts to redefine the mythology of another religion into its own. It takes popular Biblical figures such as Abraham and claims that this prophet wasn't Hebrew at all, rather, he was Islamic.

I was severely underwhelmed by the book, though I am glad I read it.

snb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
It takes popular Biblical figures such
> as Abraham and claims that this prophet wasn't
> Hebrew at all, rather, he was Islamic.
>
Mormonism does the same thing. Another parallel.

Good point!

A few years ago I was given a biography of Mohammed written by a Muslim, and very pro-Islam. As I read it, I was struck by a similarity between Mohammed and Joseph Smith that I had never seen mentioned.

The author described how, when Mohammed was faced with some practical problem, a new passage for the Quran would be revealed to him, helping him deal with the problem. And it dawned on me: just like the Doctrine and Covenants! Whenever JS had a little problem, God gave him a revelation! You know, how to finance the Nauvoo House, where Elder So-and-so was to go on a mission, how not to spend money on wine for the sacrament, etc.

Same as Mohammed!

And it all became Holy Writ!

RPackham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A few years ago I was given a biography of
> Mohammed written by a Muslim, and very pro-Islam.
> As I read it, I was struck by a similarity between
> Mohammed and Joseph Smith that I had never seen
> mentioned.
>
> The author described how, when Mohammed was faced
> with some practical problem, a new passage for the
> Quran would be revealed to him, helping him deal
> with the problem. And it dawned on me: just like
> the Doctrine and Covenants! Whenever JS had a
> little problem, God gave him a revelation! You
> know, how to finance the Nauvoo House, where Elder
> So-and-so was to go on a mission, how not to spend
> money on wine for the sacrament, etc.
>
> Same as Mohammed!
>
> And it all became Holy Writ!

Didn't Joseph Smith get the "revelation" about polygamy after Emma refused to agree to it? Or was that he had that revelation first, then received a follow-up revelation that she would be destroyed unless she agreed?

Mohammed had a "revelation" which resulted in the abolishment of adoption after he wanted to marry the very beautiful wife of Zaid, his adopted son. According to the Qu'ran, Allah caused Mohammed to desire her. Since Allah had caused the lust in the first place, his adopted son had to get divorced so that his uncle could marry her. Supposedly Allah had commanded this to happen so that Mohammed's example would make it permissible for adoptive fathers to marry their adopted sons’s ex-wives.

After this occurred, Mohammed received another "revelation" abolishing the practice of adoption, however: "God has not assigned to any man two hearts within his breast; nor has He made your wives, when you divorce, saying, ‘Be as my mother’s back,’ truly your mothers, neither has He made your adopted sons your sons in fact. That is your own saying, the words of your mouths; but God speaks the truth, and guides on the way. Call them after their true fathers; that is more equitable in the sight of God. If you know not who their fathers were, then they are your brothers in religion, and your clients."(Qu'ran 33:4-5)

I seem to recall reading that Jim Jones (who murdered hundreds of his People's Temples followers in Guyana) and David Koresh (the Branch Davidian cult leader) also had "revelations" that they could have sex with other men's wives (in Koresh's case with pre-teen girls as wel). Interesting how many religious revelations seem to fulfill a megalomaniacal male's sexual urges.

I've always thought that. Let us know the final results of your research.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page is a great site, because it cites everything with primary sources (Quran, hadith, etc.) As an exmuslim I've found it a very useful and accurate site.

Tbh the best argument against Islam is the concept of hell. In Islam, Allah has already decided whether or not you will believe in Islam (Quran 2:06-2:07), ergo, has already decided whether you go to hell or not. One of the 99 names of Allah is Ar-Raheem: the most merciful. Most of the people I know are more merciful than a deity who knowingly creates people, just to send them to an eternity of torture because he has decided he doesn't want them to see the "truth" of Islam.

Other arguments speak to the inherent misogyny in Islam (this isn't "culture", these are from the hadith and Quran):

women get half the inheritance of men

men can divorce a woman by saying talaq (lit: I divorce you) 3 times, women have to ask for their husband's permission to divorce, if he says no she has to go to a court to *petition* to have a divorce.

men can have up to 4 wives, a woman can only have 1 husband

Women have to cover everything but their hands and face (everything else is awrah- private parts), whereas men are only required to cover the area between the bellybutton and knees

There's much more stuff, most human-rights related, but I don't want this to turn into a lecture on the problems with Islam :P

Forgot to add: Mohammad was a dirtbag.

Married his wife Aisha when she was six, consummated the marriage at 9- Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

That the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

He had people tortured before killing them- Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794

Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. ***The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.***

Burning down the houses of Muslims who hadn't come to prayer- with the Muslims still inside- Sahih Bukhari 1:11:626

The Prophet said, "No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to c awl." ***The Prophet added, "Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses."***



You can see all of these for yourself at http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/

All of these come from the Bukhari. Bukhari is a collection of hadith (sayings and acts attributed to Mo) that is universally accepted because the collector (al-Bukhari) is seen as reputable. Hadith are graded on their perceived validity, sahih is the highest grade hadith can get. Unless it directly contradicts the Quran, most Bukhari hadith are sahih.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2012 09:54AM by Naomi.

Muslims, like Mormons, also abstain from food and drink when fasting. No water, even in the summer heat. It makes me think the original purpose for both had more to do with creating a certain mental state than providing for the poor.

Exmoose, how did you get out? Isn't it pretty rare for believers to leave Islam? I would love to hear your story.

Like most exmuslims (even here in the West), I'm not out to my family. It would devastate them- they would think they failed in their duty as parents, they would worry about my eternal life, they would experience shame in the community.

I became an exmuslim over a period of months. Honestly, it started when I read the quran in English. God seemed hateful and petty...he seemed human. It began a series of questions I began to have over Islam. At first I addressed them with excuses, double standards, but eventually (this is an analogy I've seen here that I really like) too many books got on my shelf and it all came crashing down. For a short period I thought I could force myself to forget all the bad stuff I had learned, so I got back into Islam, only reading feel good surahs or news, and listening to lots of nasheeds (Islamic songs). But the feeling of comfort was no longer there. I knew I was deluding myself, so I gave it up for good.

If you want to learn more about exmuslims, or hear their stories, I highly suggest reading Hassan R's blog/story. He knows Arabic, taught at an Islamic school for years. http://abooali.wordpress.com/chapter-1/

You can also check out read it's (you know the proper spelling :) ) exmuslim community. Recently it has gotten infected by a few never-moose right wingers, but overall I find most of the posts there educating and therapeutic.

Oh, and yes, it's very rare to see out exmuslims, but that's because it's kind of like North Korea- you tell people about yourself, you don't know whether their allegiance lies with you or the higher power (God). If it's the latter they may rat on you, which could get you in hot water in the community (in the west it's not so bad, mainly ostacization/getting bullied, though there are notable exceptions). I think the exmuslim movement will progress in a similar way to the gay rights movement. The more people come out, the more accepted being gay/being exmuslim becomes in the mainstream/muslim community, the less risk there becomes by coming out, and it all snowballs.

I think there are more exmuslims out there than people we think, it's just the vast majority of them are in the closet, because atm coming out is risky.

Everything you wanted to know about islam but were afraid to ask ...

http://www.nowscape.com/islam/index.htm

Thanks everyone!

This has been very interesting thread for me. There are more parallels than I originally thought.

I've had many conversations with Muslims and have found that we've had a lot in common. The conviction to our religion, dietary law from God, fasting, seriousness about religion, a chosen prophet from God, a holy text, etc., etc.

To me, it's the same story; egocentric men realizing a path to power, wealth, women and influence. This is the basic recipe of all religion. They barrow written words from different sources and claim God chose them and gave it to them. They claim authority to control the masses. They don't produce valuable services and products for consumers. They're consumers who take from consumers and claim authority to do so.

I hate religion. . .

A lot of good suggestions, especially Eric Harris.

If you feel like reading the original study in the Modern Era, "Islamic Studies" (Muhammedanische Studien) by Ignác Goldziher, (1880s), a Hungarian Jew.

If you want to understand how Europe is likely Islamic in our lifetime, "America Alone" by Mark Steyn.

If you want modern biting ridicule, Christopher Hitchens has some good material on Youtube.

There is a book called, "Mormons and Muslims" that parallels the similarities between the 2 religions as though they are both inspired by God. My Shiite ex-boyfriend told me that everything listed in that book was superfluous because Mormons believe in 3 separate Gods and it is blasphemy to believe in more than one God. My TBM father maintains that Mohammed knew that Jesus was deity but his people later changed it. My Shiite ex said the Koran as written in Arabic cannot be changed because of it's perfect poetic structure. The more I type, the crazier this all sounds.

I just finished "Evolution of God" by Robert Wright. Fascinating. It was recommended by someone on this site.

It goes into the history of religion from the very beginnings of man and then into how Jewish, Christian, and Islamic religions got their starts. I really enjoyed the book.

Like a guy who flies to Jerusalem needs debunking.