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Posted by: Searching ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 05:25PM

I left the church about 4 years ago. About the same time my wife caught me looking at porn. We are still together but it has been quite a struggle. She still believes, teaches relief society once a month but she can understand my reasons for leaving.

So after lots of counseling and practice of me being openly honest with her for the last few years. Telling her if I looked at porn and having her mad at me for months after I "confess". I've looked at porn 1-2 times a year. It has been a lot easier for me to break the habit since I left the church. Maybe changing hormones or the lack of a guilt cycle. Although I do feel bad because it makes my wife feel bad.

Here is the kicker. She hates having vaginal sex. We haven't had vaginal sex for 4 years because it is painful for her, but she still hasn't gone to a specialist. We do make love and it is wonderful but it ranges from sometimes 3 times in one week and then months without because I did/said something that makes her feel insecure or she just isn't interested.

For example last night we were at a checkstand at walgreens and I saw the latest james bond guy on the cover of vanity fair and commented ooh I want to see this movie and picked up the magazine. Well as I picked it up I noticed the naked form behind his potrait and put it back. My wife immediately moved in front of me and tried to block me from seeing the magazine cover. Well problem was she wasn't blocking it all so I moved my head slightly to one direction and then she could believe how I was trying look around her at the picture.

She was very angry, hurt and scared. I told her I thought she was blowing things out of proportion. That it wasn't porn. A classic nude pose with bond in front evoking sexuality and power in the character. Well a few discussions later I now know that all nude art is porn to her. She is very upset that I don't think I did anything wrong.

My sex life sucks, my wife withdraws affection and love from me because I lied to her in the past about looking at porn and now she can't trust me. I've put myself in quite a pickle by not being 100% honest. Years later things are not better.

Looking back at myself as a believing member I hid my imperfections from myself and lied to myself and others. And now here I am being honest and open about myself. That I thought that nude art is beautiful, celebrating the human form. My wife feels betrayed, and insecure. That i am not committed to her.

This is ruff. We are going to counseling. I am 100% committed to her. I've stuck it out through years of She is wonderful, beautiful and I want our marriage to work. I feel like I have made great progress in being honest to myself and to my wife. I just needed to vent. Any helpful advice on helping to make things work together for the long term?

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 05:43PM

Mormons take the whole porn thing way too far.

I have a friend who's an artist.
She won't take any classes from instructors that have any pictures of nudes that they show. The class doesn't even have to be about the human form. If some of their painting examples are nudes, she's done. Won't take another class from them.

This is getting to the point where there's nobody left to go to. Even female artists may paint an occasional nude. Male or female. Her level of offense about that is ridiculous.

The odd thing is, she'll go to Paris and ooh and aah over all the old masters paintings and sculptures of nudes, and not think a thing of it. Crazy making.

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Posted by: skeptifem ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 06:43PM

Mia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons take the whole porn thing way too far.
>
> I have a friend who's an artist.
> She won't take any classes from instructors that
> have any pictures of nudes that they show. The
> class doesn't even have to be about the human
> form. If some of their painting examples are
> nudes, she's done. Won't take another class from
> them.
>
> This is getting to the point where there's nobody
> left to go to. Even female artists may paint an
> occasional nude. Male or female. Her level of
> offense about that is ridiculous.
>
> The odd thing is, she'll go to Paris and ooh and
> aah over all the old masters paintings and
> sculptures of nudes, and not think a thing of it.
> Crazy making.


You don't get to tell someone else what to feel comfortable with sexually. This is a woman who feels betrayed because of her husband's pornography use and you are berating HER for being too sensitive? Things that probably wouldn't have bothered her before probably set off old feelings for her now, and even if she were bothered by them before, guess what? It is fine to be uncomfortable with nudity. I don't care if someone dislikes nudity as long as they aren't judging people who are comfortable with it.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:24PM

omg, skeptifem. the are you kidding me?

" I don't care if someone dislikes nudity as long as they aren't judging people who are comfortable with it."

What the hell do you think that the WIFE is doing in the first place!!!

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:56PM

Some of the callous replies slamming the wife in these replies mystify me.

The way this is being presented, she's not "refusing" vaginal sex. She's unable to have vaginal sex due to the physical *PAIN* it causes. This has been going on for 4 years according to OP. How would that make you feel about yourself (assuming you're a woman)? If you're a man, imagine yourself being unable to have sex due to something like phimosis.

The lack of any attempt at empathy on this one is really getting my goat. We're all exmos and don't like pointless prudery, but that does not appear to be the whole story here.

Let's add into the mix that this wife's mate left the church they both centered their life together around - again, assumptions from what we know about how people enter marriage when they are TBMs. The definition of their couple-ness on some very fundamental levels has dramatically changed. Of course she is understandably going to be insecure and have trust issues.

Add all of this together and it seems reasonable to me that there is a suffering man here, and an equally suffering woman. They are trying to keep a marriage together, 4 years later. Yet everyone's obsessing over the fact that she's sensitive to signals that her man is attracted to women other than her.

F*ck me. (No pun intended)

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:11PM

Frogdogs, I wasn't slamming the wife on the original post, i was slamming skeptifem, who was slamming Mia.

Most Mormon women are LUNATICS when it comes to porn. IMHO it arises from a stubborn and selfish misunderstanding of men.

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:22PM

sonoma, I understand. My primary concern is that people seem to be skipping over the vaginal intercourse causing physical pain and landing squarely at "she's a prude, a mormon, and so her sensitivity to porn means she's a hopeless cause"

What about the possibility that she was sexually assaulted, a common reason for vaginismus?

What might her inability to have vaginal sex due to the physical pain contribute toward an insecurity toward her husband, and a heightened sensitivity toward his noticing other women, in print or otherwise?

Look, all I'm saying is that if I were a TBM who'd been raped, stuffed it down due to TSCC's immoral view of losing one's "chastity", married another believing TBM, had physical pain during vaginal sex, and then my TBM husband left TSCC, I think I'd be having a pretty rough time. Understandably.

I think the wife would be well served by two things: leaving the Morg, and getting appropriate medical attention & therapy for the vaginismus.

Yet the two are very intimately intertwined, and dismissing the problem as hysterical TBM prudishness in response to 'porn' or titillating magazine covers borders on oversimplification and callousness. That's all I'm trying to say.

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:27PM

Wanted to add that I understood where skeptifem was coming from, as well, and I didn't take it as slamming Mia.

I don't think the wife should be assumed to be "judging" her husband for looking at racy magazine covers. She's uncomfortable with nudity, clearly insecure, and there might be other reasons for that beyond what our ex-mo prejudices ("she's a prude") would first suggest.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:37PM

ok frogdogs, now you're getting into crazy-land. You created your own narrative about the wife, but somehow missed the fact that she IS JUDGING THE HUSBAND FOR LOOKING AT PORN. Reread the post!!

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:48PM

Perhaps I'm biased. I've been married to my nevermo husband for over 20 years, and I've seen more porn that he has. It's been a non-issue in my marriage because I've always been the center of his attention.

Frankly, my heart goes out to her: even if her pain is mostly psychological, what a living hell to be trapped in.

Furthermore, the OP's post was full of frustration but also seemed to be full of a desire to reach out to her. I was suggesting ways to do it without getting derailed into remaining all offended that one's spouse (who's having major, major sexual dysfunction) is super-sensitive - to the point of being judgmental - about what naughty bits one's looking at.

I can't explain it better than that. I do appreciate and respect what you say - but whether we totally disagree or are somehow misunderstanding each other is beyond me tonight...and I'm only operating on one beer ;-)

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:59PM

frogdogs, i think that we're not that far off actually. I have sympathy for both of them. What a sad state of affairs.

Of the two problems, the more serious one, Vaginal Pain seems like it might have the "easier" fix, ironically. Sure, it may take some work, but that work can bring the couple closer.

The porn "problem" on the other hand, is just silly. It is made up in the wife's mind, and could be "fixed" instantly if the wife would simply open her mind to the nature of men. Sadly, this is also probably the "Problem" that is most likely to NEVER be fixed... go figure.

Only ONE beer Frogdogs? Gurl, it's Saturday night! Crack ourself another cold one!!!

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 10:20PM

Vell, we may have to agree to disagree for now on the porn thing and whether or not it's 'just inevitable' for men to want and need it. I can only speak from personal experience being married to a guy who's never shown much interest in it.

I completely agree with you on the religious aspect of the problem here. That might never be solved, which will be sad for all sorts of reasons. Most couples don't survive it, and those that do (like my mom and dad) sometimes lose so much of themselves they're living in a caricature of a marriage.

As for the beer, I would dearly love another delicious IPA (Victory HopDevil!) -- it used to be my favorite and I so rarely have them any more (beer belly!)

Alas, I plan to get an early start on the beach tomorrow with my dog. I was under the weather today and deprived the poor creature of her weekend fix.

Thanks for the replies. Few things can rile us up quite the way religion and sex can, no?

Cheers!

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:34PM

Frogdogs, you have created an entire narrative about the OP's wife including a medical diagnosis AND a sexual assault!!

All "Searching" said was that she hates having Vaginal sex because it is painful to her. Painful physically? emotionally? psychologically? He didn't say.

If you reread my posts, I wasn't commenting on that issue. I was commenting on the completely separate issue of Porn Prudishness.

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:54PM

The OP specifically mentioned the word "specialist" in the same sentence as her pain with vaginal sex. That made me think of a physician, rather than a therapist (ie, the pain is manifesting as physical).

Furthermore, because my SIL had severe problems with physical pain during attempts at vaginal sex due to a history of assault/rape, I will readily admit it's the first thing I thought of.

I won't apologize for jumping to conclusions on that one -- when it comes to such leaps, I find it's better to start with compassion rather than condemnation.

It's easy to view things through a narrow lens on RfM -- it's a great site, and I'm grateful it's here, but our sensitivies to the ridiculousness that is mormonism can sometimes lead us to ditch the human side and instead offer blanket condemnation.

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Posted by: newcomer ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:18PM

She has a problem and "deals with it" by not dealing with it and gets anal (No pun intended) when her husband looks at porn and MAGAZINE COVERS.

She needs therapy. She needs help. That doesn't mean she puts her husband's sex drive and life on hold. That would be selfish.

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:24PM

newcomer, are you assuming the only alternative to vaginal sex is anal sex?

I have a friend with cerebral palsy who can assure you that there are other ways to 'make love'.

Unless the OP corrects me, I'm going to assume that a woman who experiences physical pain with vaginal sex isn't going to be real adventurous with anal sex either.

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Posted by: NeverMo in CA ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 06:03PM

I had to look at the current VF cover after reading your post; here's a link with some images of it for those who are curious:

https://w1.buysub.com/pubs/N3/VYF/self_wymanctrl.jsp?cds_page_id=123094&cds_mag_code=VYF&id=1350770181686&lsid=22941655567045241&vid=2&tgt=OW_Control_headerCallout

I mean, seriously? I suppose it could be considered very soft-core porn by some, but there are FAR more revealing images of women on the front of magazines at every check out counter...has she ever seen Cosmo?

I am sorry for you that you have to deal with this; your wife sounds like she'd only be happy and secure if you both moved to Afghanistan or Saudia Arabia so that you'd never be able to see any images of the female body, let alone any public display of a real one.

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 06:19PM

I am very sorry to hear about all you and your wife are going through.

Vaginismus (pain/spasming with vaginal intercourse) can have psychological roots in past sexual trauma, though that's not the only cause. My SIL suffered from it in her late teens throughout her 20's due to having been repeatedly sexually assaulted at 11-12 by her 25 year old cousin. Her family only learned of it a decade after the fact when she finally started working through the pain with a good therapist. They don't have any contact with the cousin.

It took my SIL years to successfully become sexually active without physical pain. She was a virgin when she was raped, and in many ways stayed a virgin all over again until she was close to 30 years old and met a patient, wonderful, caring man.

I'm not saying a past rape is what is causing your wife's vaginal pain, but I admit that it was the first thing I thought of when you said she has so much pain during vaginal sex that it's been 4 years of abstinence now. How long have you been married?

If past sexual trauma is the reason for her condition, perhaps this is one of the reasons she has resisted going to a medical specialist.

I'm sure you're familiar with how incredibly shaming TSCC is towards female victims of sexual assault: they are damaged goods. If she was hurt in such a way, she might have some idea of what is wrong - as my SIL did - and yet in her case feel unable to talk to anyone about it, even her own husband.

Your having left the church will be helpful: if the opportunity arises (if it hasn't), at least you can unequivocally tell her that you despise what the church teaches about "protecting one's chastity", and that you have a special hatred for the book "The Miracle of Forgiveness" in particular.

As for the porn, I have no useful advice. My nevermo husband wasn't much into it even when he was younger. I met him only a few years after I'd left the church, and I think I've still seen more porn than he has.

In the 21 years we've been together, he's continued to seem uninterested. It outgrew its usefulness for me shortly after he gave me my first orgasm ;-) I admit that after 21 years of marriage and a great sex life, it would be 'weird' for me if he began using it because it's never seemed important. My views on it have evolved as I've gotten older, but it's been a non-issue for us. I don't know what's 'normal' for other non-mormon couples, it's just what's 'normal' for us personally I suppose.

I am glad to hear you're going to therapy. I hope it will help you both begin to sort things out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2012 06:20PM by frogdogs.

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Posted by: turnonthelights ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:34PM

My husband has a tendancy to look at porn too. Wives need to understand that when they withdrawl affection and sex from the relationship the husband is more tempted to look at porn. Maybe you should tell her this.

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Posted by: Anon Comment ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:41PM

Pain during intercourse can be a sign of all sorts of serious problems, and many benign ones as well. She really needs to be checked by a gynecologist.

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Posted by: newcomer ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:43PM

As much as I dislike Dr. Laura, there's some truth in what she says; how could a woman complain about her husband's porn "addiction," when she refuses vaginal sex and has a horrible, insecure attitude?

She's driving you to the porn.

She also needs therapy to get over the issues she clearly has.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:53PM

For Men, Sex and Porn are NOT an either/or proposition!! You ladies will NEVER understand your husbands/boyfriends until you FINALLY understand this.

Guys like to watch football, but it's not because their wives aren't playing enough football with them. THEY JUST ENJOY PLAYING FOOTBALL!!!

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Posted by: Anon for this. ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:49PM

I have Vaginismus.

It was caused by an physical assault. It was made worse by nerve damage from child birth.

It is a horrible condition. Some days I feel asexual.

I got help. For a lot of it it's couples related and we had to work it out ourselves as it needs to be done in the bedroom between a consenting couple in a relaxed atmosphere and lots of time will be needed.

There is relaxation therapy.
Lots of lubrication helps.
There are vaginal dilators.
Tissue massage helps. Vibrators are the ideal for working on any scar tissue.

There is medication to cut down on inflammation and pain. Neuralgia medication works well. Ibuprofen and other anti-inflammatorys.

My sex life is amazing. If something hurts we change position. It wasn't always this way when I was first injured I couldn't walk for days. It seemed like the amount of work to make things fun again was too exhausting and it hurt.

It does take patience and understanding to get back to vaginal sex being good.

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Posted by: frogdogs ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:12PM

Anon, I am sorry for the suffering you've been through and so glad to hear you've been able to heal enough to find enjoyment and intimacy.

This issue (vaginismus) is near and dear to my heart, as my SIL was assaulted as a child and as a result suffered similarly for years.

You gave some excellent advice. Peace and continued healing to you!

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Posted by: Anon for this. ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 09:34PM

frogdogs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anon, I am sorry for the suffering you've been
> through and so glad to hear you've been able to
> heal enough to find enjoyment and intimacy.
>
> This issue (vaginismus) is near and dear to my
> heart, as my SIL was assaulted as a child and as a
> result suffered similarly for years.
>
> You gave some excellent advice. Peace and
> continued healing to you!

Thankyou. I appreciate your response.

Being anon I don't have to worry about individuals printing off the post and taking it to a doctor or therapist. Anyone, if you think it will help, please do.

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Posted by: anono for this ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 08:53PM

I am a female and I was in a non-sexual marriage for many years with a non-mormon guy. I went to a LOT of counselling over it. The best advice I received was: "When there is sex in a marriage it is 10% of what is going on...and when there is NO sex in a marriage it is 90% of what is going on in that marriage." Even my Mom - who was a really good mormon - said "that is NO way to live" when I finally confided in her after leaving my marriage. Sex isn't everything, but it sure says a LOT about the life you're living and being content and happy is just too important. Ya gotta look out for #1, i.e. yourself. Just get outta that crazy situation and start living a life that you wanta live. seriously.

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Posted by: jenn ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 10:19PM

I don't know if this helps you or not. But for the first time in my life I AM the insecure jealous wife. My husband watching porn never bothered me in the past but now it does.
After I had my son I put on 40 pounds I am struggling to lose. I think that my husband is the sexist man alive. I do know my husband loves me but its hard for me to feel sexual when I myself do not feel sexy. It all come from within. No pun intended.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 10:36PM

Jenn, Jenn, Jenn. What am i gonna do with you? Sexiness is NOT next to skinnyness! Feeling sexy is a state of mind. Forget about the extra cushion, just show some enthusiasm for the pushin'! Although Faking it til you Make it is not a good way to find truth, it is fine for self esteem. If you show your husband some extra enthusiasm in your sex life, you'll see that 40 extra pounds can actually add to the pleasure! I bet if you gave the hubby the choice of you losing 40 pounds, or having sex more often, I'll bet you my golden plates that he would choose the latter.

And forget about the porn. Read my football analogy and you'll be better off.

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Posted by: jenn ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 11:26PM

Thanks Sonoma and by the way I have never played football with my husband "Hugs to you"

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 11:49PM

Hugs back.

Ooh, Gurl, you feel GOOOD!! Got some meat on them bones! Just like those straight boys REALLY like!

-i can talk to you this way cuz i'm a big ol gay boy-

All the best Lovers (straight males and gay tops categories) like bigger partners. With those little ones, if you're doing it right, you'll break 'em!

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Posted by: jenn ( )
Date: October 20, 2012 11:52PM

Thanks Sonoma I'm glad you like it. Gay boys are hot.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 12:05AM

Yes we are!

One more thing that you should remember, Sis jenn. You just gave your man a son. I bet you have NO IDEA how crazy in love with you that man is right now. You should be having the greatest sex of your life!! I'm sure that his attraction to you physically has only increased from the moment you told him you were carrying his child. You know I'm right. Nature made it that way. Let him enjoy this beautiful bigger you while it lasts! Love your body that went through all those changes so it could produce your child. I bet you a dollar that your husband does... big time!!

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 01:28AM

but I'll pretend it's to me too, since I just had a baby boy. Sonoma, you're too nice.

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 01:33AM

I'm sure that it's ABSOLUTELY true for you too, Naomi! Congrats, Gurl! You go get some of that Happy Daddy sex too!!

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 01:40AM

He's on the other side of the world right now, but yeah, once he gets here...

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Posted by: sonoma ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 01:44AM

!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by: Suckafoo ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 01:12AM

"My sex life sucks, my wife withdraws affection and love from me because I lied to her in the past about looking at porn and now she can't trust me. I've put myself in quite a pickle by not being 100% honest. Years later things are not better."

I don't thing she withdraws from you because of the porn. That is a reason she may be giving. Maybe she doesn't know why. But really that can't be it? Lack of spontenaity and romance killed my first marriage. I needed to be wooed but he was too lazy and just didn't know how. I didn't find that sexy. I wanted eye to eye contact. A connection that wasn't there. I would try my best but he didn't go with it. Maybe she isn't willing to try for whatever reason.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2012 01:17AM by suckafoo.

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Posted by: DebbiePA ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 02:28AM

I agree with those who have said your wife really, really, REALLY needs to see an ob/gyn about this problem, face it head-on, and start working on solutions. There are so many reasons for painful intercourse, but there are also many ways to remedy the situation.

My 22-year marriage was sexless for about half of it, for various reasons. It's no way to live, and that issue contributed greatly to the divorce. I hope your wife will understand how important this is and get the help she needs.

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Posted by: Yaqoob ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 05:32AM

You both need to find a way to be wholly and completely open and honest about everything. She needs to understand and not fear male sexuality - she needs to understand what its like being YOU and then she has to embrace it. Most women dont like porn, its a fact. Porn - like video games, strip joints, football, guns and war - was created by men for men. Women indulge in these things the same way that men indulge in cup cakes and Project Runway. She can't be fearful and has to stop the hate. If somehow you can communicate who you are, how you feel, and how you are sexually - and she listens well - you may be on better footing.

You, on the other hand, have to EMBRACE your woman for who she is as well. You have to consider everything - and it seems pretty clear what that is - that makes her feel the way she does. You need to LOVE her because of how she is...and buy her 50 Shades of Gray. And you can be in a disjointed marriage where one is TBM and the other is not.

We are never going to get everything we want, and rather than be big babies about it, we must mentally ALLOW for our lovers to change, we must allow - even give them permission - to deviate from the path we think is best for the relationship. We all tend to be so unforgiving and intolerant - the opposite is to allow and embrace everything that our lovers are. That is really hard to do, but its magic.

Otherwise we are F'd.

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Posted by: boiseguy ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 06:06AM

If u love someone u will do everything in your power to make things work but I'm sorry the LDS church teaches women to be prudes and in turn miserable insecure housewives. It then makes their husbands miserable because they withhold sex and affection as a form of punishment and the woman can justify it as a moral stance. It's a recipe for disaster. This is why 90 percent of men cheat. I'm not condenoning cheating by any means I'm just saying that everyone has needs in a relationship and while its common to label every cheating maen as a pig that can't keep it in his pants ..more times than not the underlying issues are emotional more than physical. This scenaro. Some of the greatest fears women have regarding insecurities and infidelity aare partly brought on by their own doing. I'm a gay man so maybe I Have no idea what I'm talking about. There's nothing wrong with being a lady by day and your man's little slut by night. He will most certainly enjoy it and u just might discover your own sexuality u never knew u had. Something the church has stifled in u all those years

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: October 21, 2012 08:15AM

I have a hard time when I hear about a wife that goes for months on end without having sex with her husband (for no reason other than that she is uninterested or angry with her husband over some petty thing. And yeah, porn is a very petty thing.)

I understand that vaginal sex is painful for her, but she could at least be pursuing medical advice in this matter.

You say that you are 100% committed to your wife, but I have to wonder how committed she is to you. She's not interested in pleasing you or making you happy in this regard. It's all about her. When is it going to be about you?

It takes two to make a relationship. You can't do it all by yourself.

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