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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 11:47AM

Its like with my family, I know that they are a mess, and I will sometimes make a joke about it. However, if one of my friends says something about my family, those are fighting words. I know the real reason that I get so uptight about things like this is because I had to live it and they didn't, so my experience gives me the right to mock it. Their observation didn't require the pain and anguish of a real experience, so my reaction is back off.

I realize that each is entitled to their opinion and their ability to express it but it still gets under my skin.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 11:53AM

I guess I don't have that problem.
But I think lots of people agree with you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw

He's in the same boat of "you can only mock if you are in the same group"

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Posted by: jesuscrisco ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 11:53AM

I've never been a scientologist but I still think they're morons.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 11:59AM

I'm with jesuscrisco on this thinking. I've never been in the KKK or Nazis either but I have plenty to say about that.

The Mormon church is on the level of Scientology. Different gimmicks, same damage.

I for one am sick of the 'hands-off-religions' policy some in the country have adopted.

The minute anything is off the table concerning scrutiny there is something wrong. Very little good ever comes from a free pass.

That said, I think it is generally understood by those on this board that the generalizations we make do have many exceptions and there are many lovely mormons out there.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 12:02PM by blueorchid.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:07PM

I'm talking about making fun of all of the quirky BS that we had to live with while being Mormons. Not the hurtful stuff, just the strange stuff.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:21PM

Oh, Ok. I see what you are saying Jacob.

I do see why it bothers you. I do admit to hating anyone who says bad things about my family besides me. It hurts even if I know they may have a point.

I think for me it depends on if the nevermos have had actual experience and interaction with mormons or are just being mean.

You should have a good reason for a strong statement.

I am not quite able to transfer that same familial allegiance to the TSCC. There is not even a hint of a tie that binds. Too many years. Too much damage.

But I do like criticism to come from intelligence for the sake of progress and not just to rip something to shreds from a posturing standpoint. (Not that I'm never guilty of that)

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Posted by: fubecona ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:01PM

Yeah I know what you mean. It bothers me too sometimes. I still feel a connection to Mormonism even though I no longer believe it. I guess in a way I feel like they are still "my people" It's still a part of my life because my family is all TBM, I still hear discussions about it and so much of my life was spent in that culture that whether I like it or not, it's still part of me--that's the culture that I grew up in so it did shape my life. So I do feel defensive of it sometimes, even while I criticize it myself. I think it's pretty natural to feel that way. I think the family analogy you made is a good one. It's okay to make fun of my brother, but if anyone else does it, I don't like it. It's the same sort of thing.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:30PM

Mormonism is just very young still.

Look at the Jews. There are TONs of people that are only Jewish because of their ancestry or culture. But their religion has reached a level of maturity where they can joke about it. Just look how much self-deprecating Jewish humor is out there.

Mormonism will either die out or get to that same "chill" point.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:35PM

This does make sense...what you just said reminds me of Jon Huntsman. It's like, 'this is my heritage and where I came from (and I think this is sort of unspoken) though I think it's a bunch of fiction.

Another thing is, do you have a sibling that when you were kids, you would pick on all the time, but as soon as someone who wasn't related starts in, then you get all defensive?

But also, nevermos should be able to see and say that what they're seeing doesn't make sense. I guess there's a respectful way to go about it, because what I'm seeing a lot of, is a lot of members are kind of victims to the narrative of lds history spin and are just go along to get along, and kind of an innocent, or collateral damage, if you will, of what the leadership is doing. I think that's exactly why the media has such a hard time of just coming out with it. They're not sure how to alert the public without coming off as bigoted.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 01:17PM by FormerLatterClimber.

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Posted by: Zeezromp ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:05PM

Victims of Cons shouldn't be mocked.

But victims of Cons that are so arrogantly deluded and refuse to see it don't deserve any respect IMO.

They are in fact a potential danger to others in that they are spreading bull thats fed to them and purposely hold back information(even if they know) that could jepordise a potential recruitment opportunity.

It's like MLM scams. I have a friend who never learns year after year despite me being impolite and very clear on what I think about his Ponzi delusions.

He is a potential danger to those who don't know him better when he presents his deluded 'business opportunities' to others. Thankfully everyone else sussed him out quicker than myself!

I won't be polite anymore to people engrossed in delusional activities and which are presented deceptively by the leaders and originators of such.

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Posted by: citizen not logged in ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:07PM

Too easy to bag on peeps b/c we don't agree with them. Nature v nurture, folks.

Consider widespread bigotry in mid-18th century America. Easy to rag on those folks who were super racist. However, how would you have acted if you were raised in that era and environment?

Consider the environment etc. So while it is appealing to say, "Scientologists are all morons," I don't think it is fair.

Besides, is Scientology that much worse than "more legitimate" religions?

Don't think so.

All bunk and they are all a product of nature AND nurture. Nurture, in this case, takes advantage of nature to really fuck with people.

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Posted by: jesuscrisco ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:51PM

I make fun of all religions equally.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:08PM

It depends on who they are. If it is someone who has had a significant part of their life effected by the Morg, I don't mind so much. If on the other hand it is a born again weirdo who wants to talk about how stupid Mormons are for believing in the wrong Jesus, then I have a really big problem with it.

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Posted by: CSU Provo Student ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:13PM

I kinda think that there is some genetic imprinting that causes people to think in tribal terms when it comes to conflict. On the surface, most people can work past the gut reaction and not even respond to the 'fight' response that happens in our sub-conscious minds. On the other hand, some, especially individuals who recently severed ties with their tribe, get their hackles up in a hurry and the hurt/offense is painful to bear and a lot of times manifests itself in a defensive action.

The human mind. Weird sometimes.

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Posted by: jpt ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:21PM

and go out of their way to affect the rights of others, or keep baptizing and endowing dead people....

Keeping in their own little corner is one thing, but mormonism doesn't do that. There's heat in the kitchen.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:35PM

I understand the "owning it" or "my brother, not yours" thinking, but I confess I feel differently.
I love it when others poke fun or ridicule at mormonism. I agree with them and then try to add something outrageous they didn't know yet about it.


Notice I said mormonISM, not mormons. Important point! I feel sorry for those stuck in it, they may be gullible, sweet, kind, nasty, or mean, but their religion is highly mockable.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:50PM

about mormons not being able to laugh at themselves. I was still active mormon then and I agreed.

I really don't care what others say about mormons--and I own my history. For me, humor has helped me deal with the insanity I've had in my life--so why not at mormonism, too. Even my TBM daughter pokes fun at herself and other mormons.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 12:59PM

The older I get, the more I recall little things my family said to me! :-)

This thread reminded me of one: "Susie, don't wear your feelings on your shirt sleeves."

I was just a kid and had no idea what that meant, but I do now!

We tend to be very sensitive and reactive and defensive about some things in our lives. Our family is usually on that list! We will protect our family, (usually), warts and all, against all outside attacks. It's just what humans do - human nature !

In my view, it's wise to remember we are all human beings, putting our pants on one leg at a time, our religious choices or family heritage is part of our background and is not about: right, wrong, true, false, smart, stupid, etc. It's just, again, what most humans do - they align themselves with some kind of religious teachings (usually something to do with a deity and/or a savior) and from there on out, it's a matter of degree.

I've tried to take the position of accepting people: AS-IS. I can't change them, it's not my place anyhow, so I'll enjoy people the best I can.

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Posted by: twojedis ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:00PM

I don't care for anyone saying how stupid Mormons, in general, are. For one thing, I was a deluded TBM until just a couple of months ago. I wasn't stupid, I was doing what I had been raised to do and believe.

If someone wants to point out a stupid thing one specific Mormon did, or a mindset/groupthink that is going on, that's just fine. I know many, many Mormons who are good, kind, caring people who have had their brains and souls eaten up by a dangerous belief system. They are not all stupid, not even most of them are.

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:04PM

Jacob, I think you make an excellent case for how we would be well served to rescue the victims of the Mormon scam. A little decorum is in order, I think. If we call them stupid, ridicule them, for instance, might drive them into apologetics, but if we try to describe to them.with respect how they are being victimized, this would have more legs.

However I think apologists should be debated with, and point out for all who can hear in the vicinity how they really don't follow Jesus. This puts a chink in the armor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 01:05PM by FormerLatterClimber.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:08PM

or dumb for being in a religion. Most were born into the cult...I am glad so many have found their way out.

I have a friend who is probably get baptized a JW!!! OH NO!!

I cant reason with him...I even went to a JW "recovery site to get info...i use this moniker there...the guy is smart...but he believes those scriptures dangit...
nope not dumb...not stupid...just mislead.

just sayin!

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Posted by: rander70 ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:10PM

This is why I dont like generalizations and stereotypes. When I hear "all mormons (insert insults here)" you are talking about my parents and my siblings and I would fight to the death for them despite their beliefs. I understand the general culture of mormonism is messed up, but my parents and siblings are very respectful, generous people. So Im sorry if the mormons you met are fucked up, but dont assume my family is. I know what type of mindset my family is coming from... Have you ever been brainwashed? Can you even fathom the type of damage it causes you? I do.

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Posted by: 9 months and counting... ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:21PM

Here's the long story short of me. I'm a BIC member of the church who has been both inactive and non-believing for over the last ten years. My husband is a nevermo. We are expecting our first child to arrive within the next month.

I apologize for the length of this post but I am pretty upset.

My pregnancy has been easy going physically but emotionally very difficult. I did not tell any family members during my first three months because I did not want the news to be wide spread before I had gotten out of the miscarriage 'danger zone' since I knew that if I did miscarry they would just get on me to get pregnant again as soon as possible (something I would not have wanted to do). Suffice it to say when I did tell my mother, the rest of the family knew within 5 minutes, so I didn't even get time to tell her not to spread it like wild fire since she was texting as I was speaking with her.

My mother has been a constant source of pain throughout this pregnancy, mostly with what I would call her 'tactics'. To start, after learning I was pregnant she started going on about how she was going to be in the delivery room with another relative (due the same time) and all the stuff they were planning, only to ask me later if I wanted to take her with me to my lamaze classes (I said no since my husband was going) and then getting offended.

On the occasion where we would make plans together to do stuff for the baby she would bail or try to bail on me always the day before said appointment. Usually the excuses were saying that someone else needed her and she couldn't disappoint them, or my personal favorite, *blaming* a family member for taking her out of town so she could take care of her dog.

She has also consistently disregarded any discomfort I have expressed. The most recent being my baby shower when I told her upfront that the food she was serving was not anything I could eat and that it needed to change. It did not change and I wound up not only hungry for five hours but also stuck in +100 degree heat with little refreshment and everyone *but her* checking up on me (since she was offended I wasn't going to eat the food I could not eat). I had heat exhaustion the next two days.

Then on my birthday she made an announcement at dinner thanking not only the power of prayer but her efforts for my brother's health (which has not changed in two years). It pretty much changed the focus of the dinner from celebrating my birthday to focusing on her, which I'm sure was the idea.

The latest and the straw that is breaking this camels back is when I recently said no to having her bring her people into my house to do some construction because she felt things were unfinished (they were fine, she just wanted access to the house so she could change things and also start doing things in the nursery which I had previously said no to).

So, she waited a few days and went after my husband. She presented it as a new idea and he also said no to her (because he knew I had already said no and it is far too close to my due date and she would just be creating more mess for us to clean up in addition to us trying to organize our house). She then wanted to talk to him in person, he said no. She then tried to pursue another timeframe and he said no again. He said I was not comfortable having people coming in and out of the house and her response was 'I know, that's why I'm asking you.'. He still said no.

So, I need to know how to respond in such a way that will end this bullshit. I have considered no contact. Still, I'd like to attempt one last try at getting through her thick ass skull.

She is deeply ingrained in not just herself but the church and the belief that she is doing good by forcing things in the name of 'family', even if that means bullying her pregnant daughter.

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Posted by: 9 months and counting... ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:22PM

Sorry, can the above be deleted? I meant to post as a separate thread.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:35PM

poopoo happens...you could:
cut and past your post to a "new topic"..that will start the thread...and just put oops maybe on this post...or see if the post will "cancel" anyway...my advice...
Your mother is very pushy and dismissive of your feelings and needs. I say she is not a very good mother. Going around your back is very disrespectful and uncaring!

this opinion of course is a limited view opinion as i have not heard from the other side(mom)...but from what you say...her "mothering skills" need some work!

just opining!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 01:35PM by bignevermo.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:37PM

you can edit and remove most of it. btw, Birth is a trigger time for old mormon programming to take hold plus they like to go on the offensive when anyone is at a vulnerable stage like moved, birth, death, newly married, etc. Best of luck, post more.

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Posted by: delt1995 ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:26PM

When you grow up around something or spend enough time doing something, anything not in that world seems odd. Anything that shakes your "normal" is a theat.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:33PM

Yep, I totally get that. It changes with time though and bothers me less now than it did a few years ago. I think the process of re-writing our identity as we move away from mormonism makes it easier.

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Posted by: Serendipityhappensnotloggedin ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:43PM

YUP. Especially when they're actively religious in some other religion.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 01:54PM

Yeah, I do have a hard time with those type:

"The BoM is so stupid! God would never tell Nephi to chop of Laban's head... He'd tell him to kill Laban, his whole city, men women & children AND EVEN animals, cuz that's how he rolls in the book of Samuel"

or

"Christ descended from heaven into the Americas? Yeah right! Everyone knows he was born of a virgin in Jerusalem and walked on water that he could have turned into wine if he wanted to"

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Posted by: FormerLatterClimber ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 02:05PM

Yeah, that makes sense.

George Carlin said: all wars are based on this: "my god has a bigger d*ck than your god." Divisive. But I still see value in unraveling the active tbm mind wash by pointing out how they don't follow Jesus.
It worked for me when I was tbm, and I was really brainwashed.

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Posted by: justrob ( )
Date: October 17, 2012 02:11PM

If only there had been creator-condoms.
Then Elohim wouldn't have had that little accident everyone calls Jesus.

That's why the Greek gods > Elohim. They knew if you transformed into a bull first (or some other animal), you could go bareback with a much smaller chance of a pregnancy scare (but they still had their fair share).

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