I will grant you that there are some Christians or other religious people who DO help others just because they really care. But these people DO NOT NEED religion! They will do good unto others "for goodness' sake" with or without religion.

As for the rest, those religionists motivated BY their religion, have other agenda(s) such as the carrot and the stick, trying to look "righteous" in the eyes of others, or to recruit new members, etc. I think we can all do without their smug, condescending, ulterior-motive driven "help." These people will do the right thing ONLY when someone is looking (or they think they are being watched 24/7 by some cosmic douchebag in the clouds).

In the absence of religion, these people might not get the idea that they are "special," "chosen," or "better-than" in the first place and might develop their own moral compass. They most likely will also refrain from doing horrible things to others in the name of the same religion.

In the words of Steven Weinberg:

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”

But it leaves open a very interesting question.

Should we hold the good people that have done bad things because of religion accountable for the bad?

At this point in my life, I say yes, absolutely.

I agree that it is preferable to do good for the sake of goodness ther than because you are afraid God will punish you or because you are looking for a reward. However, some people need a push. If I were hungry or homeless, the motives of those who helped me would not matter nearly as much as the fact that they gave me food and shelter. Doing good whatever your motivation is better than not doing it. Besides most of the time when we do good we are getting something out of it even if it is just a good feeling from helping or because we don't want to suffer the guilt of not helping. Another point: just because you believe in God does not mean the only reason you are doing good is because of God's rewards and punishment. That is simplistic thinking. All non believers who do good are not purely unselfish either. Maybe they want praise or a tax deduction. There are many non religious selfish motives out there.

That "push" is done by people with motives of their own and that push is how religion gets good people to do bad things.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are many non
> religious selfish motives out there.

Of course if you actually read the quote and the point being made, the idea that non-religious do bad things is fully acknowledged.

The quote even admits that with or without religion there are good people and bad people. What the quote is pointing out is how religion can be used to get good people to do bad things.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There are many non
> > religious selfish motives out there.
>
> Of course if you actually read the quote and the
> point being made, the idea that non-religious do
> bad things is fully acknowledged.
>
> The quote even admits that with or without
> religion there are good people and bad people.
> What the quote is pointing out is how religion can
> be used to get good people to do bad things.

Yawn.

Keep yawning and keep ignorant.

So these folks that need a push...can't we find other, less toxic ways to inspire them? Cuz I'd rather lose their "help" than gain a slew of abortion clinic bombers and jihadists.

I mean seriously, religion pushing their version of what is right on me is one of the reasons I hate religions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 06:22PM by MJ.

notamomo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So these folks that need a push...can't we find
> other, less toxic ways to inspire them? Cuz I'd
> rather lose their "help" than gain a slew of
> abortion clinic bombers and jihadists.
I tend to agree about those kinds of religious people, but the fact is most people who go to church don't bomb abortion clinics or blow up planes.Many keep their belifs to themselves.Let's paint everyone with the same brush. That is so helpful in a debate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 06:29PM by bona dea.

And the religions "push" them for those contributions, because it is the religion they are going to that promotes the hate and asks for the contributions.


And who's right is it to push anyone to do anything?

I don't just like my church because it helps the needy, etc. I feel spiritually uplifted every week that helps me get through tough times. I would appreciate those of you who are non believers to at least respect my right and others who still have a faith in God after Mormonism, just like I respect your desire to not follow a God.

Of course "I feel spiritually uplifted" is the same claim Mormons make, and we see how well THAT works.

... may not bomb abortion clinics or blow up planes, but they do stand in line, in force, to take away the basic rights of folks they deem "perverse" or "unclean" or "unworthy."

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 06:44PM by Timothy.

Timothy

Not all churches get involved in politics or be anti gay. The Methodist church is not one of them. We have openly gay members of our church who are treated with respect and dignity. Please quit lumping all churches as bad or evil. There are some icky churches out there, just like anything else. The whole gay issues, is what lead me to leave the LDS church after they attacked me for openly loving and supporting my gay brother.

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/christianity.htm

"The United Methodist Church officially considers "the practice of homosexuality incompatible with Christian teaching" and states that "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" cannot be ordained as ministers."

I think your claim "Not all churches get involved in politics or be anti gay. The Methodist church is not one of them" is a bit exaggerated. The stance of the United Methodist Church is defiantly Anti-gay.

Timothy

I deplore the Westboro Baptist church for crap they spew but not all Christians and or churches are not like them. I help the boycott of them because I find them disgusting. Just like there are some jerky straight people and gay people. We need to get past labeling people with a broad brush

Madison40 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Timothy
>
> Not all churches get involved in politics or be
> anti gay. The Methodist church is not one of
> them. We have openly gay members of our church
> who are treated with respect and dignity. Please
> quit lumping all churches as bad or evil. There
> are some icky churches out there, just like
> anything else. The whole gay issues, is what lead
> me to leave the LDS church after they attacked me
> for openly loving and supporting my gay brother.

Thank you.
Hmm, some religions actually support gays. One of the leading candidates for Episcopal bishop of Utah was gay. So was a local female rabbi. More painting with a broad brush.Some people are fond of bringing up the Westboro Baptist church, which, according to Wikipedia, has less than 100 members, most of whom belong to the same family, and painting them as representative of all Christians. Give me a break.Some of the people on this board are so filled with hate and bigotry that they are worse than most the worst Christians and they are so blind they can't see it

Madison40's claims about the Methodists not being anti-gay are dubious at best!

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/christianity.htm

"The United Methodist Church officially considers "the practice of homosexuality incompatible with Christian teaching" and states that "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" cannot be ordained as ministers."

Thanks Anon.

Madison 40, don't take it personally. Sadly, Timothy is confused again.

If you are not a militant atheist, a militant gay. or a militant whatever Timothy cannot handle it. And you damn well better not be a Christian! You're golden, though, if you are a militant, gay, (vegeterian?) atheist!

Madison40's claims about the Methodists not being anti-gay are dubious at best!

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/christianity.htm

"The United Methodist Church officially considers "the practice of homosexuality incompatible with Christian teaching" and states that "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" cannot be ordained as ministers."

anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Madison 40, don't take it personally. Sadly,
> Timothy is confused again.
>
> If you are not a militant atheist, a militant gay.
> or a militant whatever Timothy cannot handle it.
> And you damn well better not be a Christian!
> You're golden, though, if you are a militant,
> gay, (vegeterian?) atheist!
Arguing with either Timothy or MJ is an exercise in beating your head against a brick wall. For starters they routinely miss the point you are trying to make and then twist your words.I'm not sure if this is deliberate or if they are too lazy to read. Maybe they have a reading comprehension problem. Who knows? All I know is they are argumentative malcontents. I'd ignore them and make your points without getting into it with them. It is better for your menatal health than going into la la land where everything you say means the opposite to them.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

Twist facts is more accurate

Time to put up or shut up, where am I wrong about the Anglican Church?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_%28United_States%29#On_gender_and_sexuality

"The 2009 General Convention affirmed that "gays and lesbians (that are) in lifelong committed relationships," should be ordained, saying that "God has called and may call such individuals to any ordained ministry in the Episcopal Church."[100] The Convention also voted to allow bishops to decide whether or not to bless same-sex marriages.[101]"

"The Convention also voted to allow bishops to decide whether or not to bless same-sex marriages.[101]"

The decision to marry gay couples rests with the bishops. So a bishop can discriminate against gays and refuse to marry the gay couple simply because they are gay and this is act of ant-gay discrimination would be condoned by the Anglican church.

No twisting of facts on MY part.

Bona Dea, thanks for the heads up.

MJ

Yes the Methodist church does not support Gay Clergy but then there are lots of churches who don't but that makes them automatic bigots and anti gay when they do other things to support gay people. I just find it sad that you are so angry against religion of any kind that you can't respect other people. I really resent being labeled anti gay and bombing abortion clinics because I go to church, not all churches act that way,I don't agree with those kind of tactics. I've openly supported by gay brother before my parents came around and supported him. This is the last time, I'm going to respond to any of your posts, to each his own.

The fact that you try to excuse a wrong by saying well lots of other people are doing the same wrong thing is sad, very sad.

All those chuchs are teaching that gays are less than, and not worthy of full inclusion, and should be discriminated against, that is BIGOTRY.

Madison40 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJ
>
> Yes the Methodist church does not support Gay
> Clergy but then there are lots of churches who
> don't but that makes them automatic bigots and
> anti gay when they do other things to support gay
> people. I just find it sad that you are so angry
> against religion of any kind that you can't
> respect other people. I really resent being
> labeled anti gay and bombing abortion clinics
> because I go to church, not all churches act that
> way,I don't agree with those kind of tactics. I've
> openly supported by gay brother before my parents
> came around and supported him. This is the last
> time, I'm going to respond to any of your posts,
> to each his own.

And some churches do allow openly gay clergy, but I guess that doesn't count

And is allowing gay clergy the end all to teaching homophobia? Yes, the Anglican church in the USA and a few other places allows gay clergy, but they also condone discrimination against gays by allowing clergy to discriminate against gays when it comes to gay marriage. And when you look at the Anglican Church world wide, you get a much less gay friendly picture.

Sorry, but even many of the churches that allow gay priests still teach hateful discrimination. Allowing gay priests does not make the teaching of discrimination right or excusable.

MJ

How dare you call me a bigot. I don't agree with not having Gay Clergy, maybe down the road that will change but lots of other good things are being done. I am so far from being bigot. I thought there were to be no personal attacks on this board. Bona Dea thanks for warning.

I said the teaching of discrimination against gays by churches is bigoted, but I did NOT call you a bigot. And even at that I was talking about the behavior of the churches as in "teaching discrimination"

you owe me an apology.

Gezzz. It's time to stop misrepresenting the views of the Methodist Church, and it is time to stop misrepresenting what I have said.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I said the teaching of discrimination against gays
> by churches is bigoted, but I did NOT call you a
> bigot. And even at that I was talking about the
> behavior of the churches as in "teaching
> discrimination"
>
> you owe me an apology.
>
> Gezzz. It's time to stop misrepresenting the views
> of the Methodist Church, and it is time to stop
> misrepresenting what I have said.

You certainly implied it though, didn't you? And you say I misrepresent facts. What a hypocrite!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 07:34PM by MJ.

Mormons do not have the monopoly on the word spiritually uplifted. Many people of other faiths use that word.It's one thing to attack religion, but do you have to personally attack the person's wanting to attend a church by saying all churches are bad when they are not all bad.

Pointing at the Mormons is just ONE example where the claim "spiritually uplifting" does not equate to the church bing good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 06:57PM by MJ.

MJ

You label anyone as a bigot, etc, if they do not support your version of life, religion, human rights etc. You are just a militant as the people you are fighting against, labeling everyone evil or bad if they don't agree with your viewpoint. This is all I'm going to say on this subject. I can sleep at night because I do care about people, all people and give my time and support for that. Let's just agree to disagree.

To jump from that to the claim that I was calling "someone" much less accusing me of calling YOU in particular bigoted is pure unadulterated insulting BULL SHIT.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 07:18PM by MJ.

Thanks Bona Dea

Madison40 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJ
>
> You label anyone as a bigot, etc, if they do not
> support your version of life, religion, human
> rights etc. You are just a militant as the people
> you are fighting against, labeling everyone evil
> or bad if they don't agree with your viewpoint.
> This is all I'm going to say on this subject. I
> can sleep at night because I do care about people,
> all people and give my time and support for that.
> Let's just agree to disagree.

MJ is a black and white thinker. He doesn't understand that you can belong to an orgainization and not support everything about it, just as you can be a citizen and not support everything your country does. You can also work from within for change, as many religious people do.

Thanks for the laugh again. I back up my claims something I have yet to see YOU do and I get accused of being a black and white thinker.


Bwahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah'

The fact of the matter is, it is NOT my thinking that makes me believe the United Methodist Church anti-gay and teaches anti-gay discrimination, it is the stated policy of the United Methodist Church that states such things.

If researching the views of the United Methodist Church before I am critical of them makes me a black and white thinker so be it.

Bwahhahahahhahahahahahahahahhaha

Sorry MJ, but your response came across as attacking me for my going to church that does not allow gay ministers as being biogted, implying that I am by attending.Just so you know my gay brother does not have a problem with me going to the Methodist church but then he respects my right to practice and believe in God, just like I support him as gay and living the gay lifestyle but then we love each other no matter what. Now, this really is my last response to this post

Oh, and BTW, your brother does not speak for me or any other gay person.

The fact is, the official policy of the United Methodist Church is clearly NOT what you claimed it is. That is true no matter what your brother SAYS to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 07:30PM by MJ.

Your brother may not have a problem with that, but you might want to think about what you are doing and how that ultimately impacts your brother.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 07:36PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t
Umm, MJ, I do read what you have to say and I agree with you on some things, but a lot of what you post is crap. You are the one who assumes what people think without bothering to read their posts.

How many times did I have to post that page about the number of *AMERICANS* that believed the bible was literal before you ever responded to it? I bookmarked it because I got sick of googling for it every time I posted it and its been bookmarked for a long time. And even then you got it wrong.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many times did I have to post that page about
> the number of *AMERICANS* that believed the bible
> was literal before you ever responded to it? I
> bookmarked it because I got sick of googling for
> it every time I posted it and its been bookmarked
> for a long time. And even then you got it wrong.
Maybe that is because you totally7 missed m y pooint which I explained to you over and over. There is a point where you just give up aND I reached it. If you are interested, go back, read my post in the original thread and try to understand simple English..

YOUR word? Bwahjahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahha

MJ

Just like you don't speak or represent every gay person in America. I know many gays who go to churches that may not have Gay clergy but they go for other reasons and would be appalled at your attitude and treatment of people who go to church.

The fact of the matter is, and this has nothing to do with me being gay, it has to do with the stated policy of the United Methodist Church, the United Methodist Church DOES INDEED DISCRIMINATE against gays and in doing so teaches that discrimination against gays is acceptable.