all the imaginative, creative, insightful people are now ex-mormons an d are congregating here, using their talents, insights etc. in the ex mormon community. i love the stories and songs etc. here! Leaves the dull, boring, uncreative people boring each other at church every week!

Loved the christmas songs, Harvey's inkeeper story etc!

You were always criticized for something stupid and your creativity was always scrutinized to have to fit perfectly to the strict conforms of Mormonism. And if that ever felt stifling, then your testimony was questioned in public.

It was absolutely stifling! Artists, writers, musicians....all have a hard time being in that cult. You are judged for any work that is not "uplifting" or "spiritual."

It's one of the reasons I gave up on drawing comic-book art at the age of 13- It wasn't a considered a worthy pursuit for a daughter of god. So sad people in the church are allowed to have artistic freedom without scrutiny.

Seriously.

Dull. boring, and uncreative.

It didn't seem to be that way years ago - festivals, roadshows, lots of books to read, discussions in meetings, etc. Nowadays, if (mis)fortune causes me to be in a mormon group of people, it seems I can't get out of there fast enough to find someone who isn't dull, boring... and who is creative.

Pod people, methinks. Blind obedience in action.

I know, why can't someone find another Book of Abraham on papyrus inside a mummy or something. Its so boring now.

Mormon cult kills creativity.

I used to make posters for stake activities. On one theater/road show announcement, I'd used a cartoon with a character called "Polaq". My take on Sydney Pollack, film director. So there it was up on our stake bulletin board. SP sees it and immediately "suspects" it was some gang-related nick or a term for drugs. He could've just picked up the phone to ask me, or drive over a few blocks down the road to have a heart to heart. Instead, he makes a decision based on how the Spirit tells him it's a bad word and takes a thick, black marker to my poster and blacks out all names used on my cartoon, ruining a perfectly attractive poster.

Karma. Several years down the road the idjit is Ex'ed for adultery, flees the city with younger woman (our Seminary teacher). Irony, the idjit crawls back to church authorities and, with new younger wife, serves an overseas mission as couple.

You cannot make this up!

and a lot of folks, apparently, let their feet do the talking, and left the church.

All the controls were ratcheted up: the simplified music, lessons written for 10 year olds became ridiculous for a lot of members.

Those of us that knew what the LDS Church used to be like: lots of FUN activities, lots of CREATIVITY, lots of DISCUSSION, lots of interaction.
The Correlation Program put an end to all that.

The cream of the crop - the "elite" as they used to say, bolted. A spiritual witness to the metaphysical claims was just not enough to keep people giving more and more of their time and money and getting less and less say in anything.

Yup. I think the cream of the crop ends up here at least temporarily!

I know this is really stupid,but I have to say I don't understand what the Correlation Program is. I've heard it mentioned many times here as ruining church activities etc. but I don't know what it is. I guess I didn't pay enough attention at church. And I blame alot of my ignorance to some things because for the past 15 years all I did was teach Primary. Never went to SS or RS. Wasn't I lucky!! Instead I got to teach all the little kids a bunch of lies.

The church leaders wanted better control of the individual wards, and the material they were using/teaching.

Think of thousands of independent coffee shops. Now "correlate" them all into Starbucks. Or McDonalds.

Wards all became the same... same (relative budgets), same lesson materials, better controlled from above. Individual organizations - Priesthood, RS, YM/YW, Primary, etc, all were "correlated" at the church headquarters level so all members would get the same controlled materials.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2010 05:56PM by jpt.

Correlation was a process that the church began in the 1960s to try to make all of its doctrines and practices consistent and understandable, especially for the expected hundreds of millions of people (no exaggeration) outside the US who were expected to join during the next several decades. The correlation process eventually accomplished three main things: 1) it dumbed down church teachings to the extent that they became dull, repetitive, and unsatisfying for anyone who is interested in knowing more than the most watered-down "milk"; 2) it centralized church authority and practices to the point at which wards are empowered to do little except send money to Salt Lake City and follow the orders that come from SLC (an effect also known as corporatization); and 3) it suppressed many of Mormonism's unique teachings in an effort to make it more respectable outside of the Mormon heartland.

None of this should have come as a surprise. If the church draws its leaders from among business executives, the church will be run like a business.

Thanks for the responses. I didn't know it was so all encompassing. I know the primary manuals are the same all over the world,rotating every year for 3 years then starting over. I can't tell you how many times my primary kids would say "we've already had this lesson!" No wonder the kids were so smart-they hear the same things over and over and over.....

Obedience is the #1 attribute that will help you climb the mormon leadership ladder. I cringe when I read my 20 yo nephew's emails from his mission. The word 'Obedient' pops up several times. Obedience is being pushed so hard to the missionaries that they are seeing obedience as righteousness.

As for being creative or unique...not so good. Mormonism will accept a little bit of creativity, but it has to fit inside their box.

I came to a depressing conclusion that creativity and diversity are just various forms of imperfection. The Morg taught us that all difference was bad and only the one perfect answer and way to be was good. What was the point, I wondered in a state of despondent dysthymia, if all we do is perpetually follow a never changing script?

The Mormon church is a corporation, and creativity is not usually appreciated in the business world. When it comes to the "arts" LDS are more interested in promoting their brands than creating something genuine and meaningful. Listen to their godawful, Michael McLean-inspired Mormon pop or view their simplistic, kitschy, Caucasian depictions of Jesus (usually surrounded by a group of white children) and all his beefy prophets, and you'll have a good idea of what the church offers. They want to present a clean, innocent, meek image to their prospective customers, using what is essentially emotional pornography to entice and ensnare fresh converts.

Real art tends to excite emotions and awaken one's faculties. It's often meant to make its audience uncomfortable and forces them to examine the world from different perspectives, to experience new- and often disturbing- views of reality. This does not sit well with the Mormon church, since it maintains that there is only one Truth, one Reality, and that they lay exclusive claim to it; if you want it, they alone can give it to you - if you're willing to pay.

My mother and I are both artists and had real trouble fitting in with the other members. She was a surrealist (before church-imposed guilt destroyed her soul), and her paintings were haunting yet beautiful. One of my favorites appeared to be, on cursory glance, a simple landscape with pretty trees, rolling green hills, and a bubbling stream running through. However, with a more discriminating eye one could see that every rock, hill and plant was a body, and suddenly the pleasant landscape became a field of corpses. This, incidentally, has become my view of Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2010 05:27PM by magunga.

Absolutely without a doubt...

I got to age 26 and was about ready to die of boredom at church meetings...

I was ready to just throw my hands up and say, I really don't even care if this church is true...

It is TOO boring to tolerate....and so many people would just enjoy a day off from work ...a REAL day off, there are too many other actual fun things to do on a day off instead of attend church..

This is absolutely a big problem for the church and the leadership is so out of touch, they'll never steer it back

The church was experiencing a huge problem during the 70's with charismatic gospel doctrine teachers, charismatic BYU teachers, Relief Societies whose enthusiasm and productivity exceeded that tof the Elder's Quorum, etc, etc. There was vitality in the church then and it contrasted starkly with the sonorous, repetitious and boring presentations of the apostles and stake leaders.

One example, George Pace, who had students coming to his religion classes who weren't even registered. And, OMG, the women! We were teaching Stake Self-Esteem Days where one fabulous strong woman after another got up and said things that were far, far more interesting than the brethren.

Worse yet, people were coming to them for advice and spiritual guidance. I was one of those speakers. In the day, I was one of those Super Moms who taught the seminars on how to raise a big family--all the tips and tricks you needed to be successful. But guess what? The women who took my classes would come to me later and ask for spiritual advice, or confess that they were suicidal. I had no idea so many women were miserable as Mormons.

Many inspiring and creative people wrote books, developed followings, and it all started in church with their exceptional performance as Sunday School teachers, or Relief Society presidents. The brethren had to put a stop to all that excellence. The thinking had already been done, we all knew that, but guess what?

There's no place in TSCC for anyone who appears to be closer to HF than the Brethren. No place for a starter of burnings in the bosom. No place for someone who makes people more enthusiastic about church because of their individual personality (humor, poignancy, experience, etc.).

A cult's ultimate control rests in the extinguishing of individuality. And the correlation program did exactly that. They don't care if you have a better way to explain something. Your better way might be way better, but the GOAL HERE IS NOT TO EFFECTIVELY TEACH, it is to retain control. And you, my creative talented friend, are threatening that with your hand puppets and your clever analogies.

It had to be stopped and it was. Look at what they did to George Pace, who actually made me believe it might be true when I was doubting-- they crushed an effective messenger and I feel fairly sure his successor did not tell personal anecdotes about seeking a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and what that's all about.

In the collective mind of Mormonism, lack of correlation lead to the feminist movement, which threatened the values of patriarchy which they hold so dear. Think about it.


Anagrammy

I knew Pace's daughter. She lived in Mesa with her family when I was young. My mother and her are still friends. I remember them having long talks about how the church persecutes good members and how nonsensical it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2010 08:18PM by vhainya.

Very interesting- is Pace's daughter still a member. I know his son David left. I can't imagine a child could stay having such a wonderful, sincerely spiritual father and see him destroyed by a monster like Bruce R.

Anagrammy

another great reason for RfM -- I've never heard of Pace before.

It lists the "Gospel Principles" Manual in two places -- one for the Priesthood / Relief Society and the other for Investigators.

Here is the guidance for the latter:

"Gospel Principles, new edition (06195). This course is for investigators, new members, members returning to activity, and others who need basic gospel instruction. The instructor chooses the order of the lessons according to the needs of class
members"

So lemme get this right -- a bunch of RMs need "basic gospel instruction". Why?

That which is not specifically permitted is prohibited.
That which is permitted is mandatory.

And Mormons can't tolerate that.

I remember when the directive came down from On High that no classrooms or meeting rooms could be furnished or decorated with anything that was not specifically ordered/authorized by the Boys in SLC.

I thought immediately of a beautiful little bit of cross-stitching that had been in the RS room for as long as I could remember. It said "Love is Home-Made." I couldn't imagine that ANYBODY would have the nerve to take that down. But they did. A lovely little decoration that was the very epitome of what they were supposed to teach in that room - and they took it down!

I didn't stay around long after that to see what else they butchered, in the name of Obedience.

Didn't individual churches/wards get to keep more of their tithing money or something? And then when Correlation came down, all monies got sent to SLC for "equal redistribution?" And they call Obama a socialist. <shakes head sadly>

For instance, in the Pacific Grove Ward, we used to shag cars for Hertz. We'd run them from other locations back to Monterey. that was one of the least demanding and more fun activities to bring up the cash in the ward budget. How much money you had on hand depended on how successful you were at raising money by having a good budget activity. It was annoying, but you might be floating in dough.

"A cult's ultimate control rests in the extinguishing of individuality"

I can't recall who exactly posted this but OMG, was this on point!

I'm 44 years old. I lost my wife last year, I was 43. I remember 2 distinct and different LDS Churches in my life.

1) Birth - 1979- My Childhood- full of fun, great activities, fund raisers to build new churches, new stake houses, extreme local responsibility on local wards and bishops to raise their own funds and finance their growth.

2) 1980-2005- I left the Church for good in 2005. In this period I saw localisation turn into centralization by the Church. Funds were no longer local, but owned by the Church. Churches became bland, cut from one mold and lessons as well as teacher guidance was centrally directed. I served my mission, followed the steps I was guided through and held onto the faux 'iron' rod as long as I could until it became blatantly clear to me that this rod was made of mere rope and was bending and moving according to the wishes of the suits in SLC and not a Godly leader.

Today, I am no more part of this sham. I cannot take it and it makes me ill every week that my kids want to go and take part in this kinderspiel each Sunday AM. The only good part of this is knowing my kids will eventually ask me if they 'must' go at which point they will be given fully permission to stay home and play Xbox360!

First, I realize youth conferences in the 80s were a huge tool to get me to keep going to church ... but they were fun. We would take an 8 hour road trip and hang out at a nice college for what seemed like a week. By the early 90s, these were no more ... instead they were conducting youth conferences at the stake center ... and they specified it was due to money / budget consolidation issues.

Another reason why the youth are leaving ... who the heck wants to hang out at the stake center?

They chased out all the gay guys. When I was a "youth" I practically ran my Ward, my High School, my social club at BYU, and etc. Without us Homos, you straight folk don't have a chance. I'm sorry if nobody told you before this, but Breeders are BORING !!

What is it with that, anyway? All my gay guy friends have been really creative and imaginative, and most we're great fun to be around. But not all breeders are boring. I'm boring, but I'm not most people. Boring as hell, though. That's a bummer.