I came across this article talking about Mitt evading the draft. It gives good details and is very interesting how he did it by going on a mission for the church. It also talks some about the church and how it assisted him and others to do the same. Its worth the read.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/09/10/romneys-mormon-draft-deferrment-not-legal/

Chickenhawk Mitt. Chickenshit.

but if I were, I would think that chicken hawks are probably the most odious things on the planet.

I just don't understand how veteran can support a chicken hawk.

Good to see that some veterans don't.

now it refers to Republicans of the ilk of Cheney, W, Limbaugh, Rove, Beck, Rumsfeld, Mittens et. al.

Originally, it meant older that likes younger, but that does not equate to pedophilia. The first time I heard the term it was in regards to a 60 year old that liked men around the age of 30.

Jesse Ventura coined this term in this context. what it really means is guys who act like hawks politically but are really chickens. Ie guys who advocate getting into a war but would never do the fighting themselves. Jesse actually fought in a war.

A chickenhawk is someone who is very excited to go to war, but backed out when he had a chance to fight himself.

Examples: Mitt Romney, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Bill Kristol, Joe Lieberman

Counter-examples, people who fought wars and were hesitant to go to war again: Dwight Eisenhower, Colin Powell

Much as I enjoyed this, it seems to push a bit past the limits of what can be documented. That seems unnecessary because it's such an easy target.

I'm especially glad they bring the racism in. I don't believe there were any Black Mormon young men getting deferments. They all had to fight.

These statements make me nervous:

"There are no Mormon facilities in France now nor have there ever been." What about churches, aren't they facilities?

"It wasn’t until 1978 that the challenges to the Mormon Church as legitimate due to their racists policies was settled by the IRS allowing them the legal status of a religious organization. Prior to that, they had the same tax standing as the KKK." The link provided doesn't document the claim, and I don't think it is accurate.

Romney is really vulnerable on this topic, so I just wish they were a little more careful. To me, it reads a little 'anti-Mormon'.

Yeah, apologies for double posting on this article, but I also found it a bit poorly written and hard to follow. Lots of negative stuff in there about the church and Mitt's "deferment," but seemed to be stretching things at times.

..... Fortunate son !

The point the journalist was making is that there were no mormon Divinity schools in France during Romney's service there.

Also, France has officially declared mormonism to be a cult.

The article says his mission in France was for 30 months.....?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 03:35PM by caedmon.

Back in the day (50's-60's) a mission was for thirty months(21/2 years for you civillians). Especially if you learned a foriegn language.

While I think the label of "Chickenhawk" is applicable to Mitt, the man obviousley avoided military service while obviously being in support of the war. He definately took advantage of the deferrments available. The article is a little dependant on Wikipedia. The claim that the IRS entered into a deal with the church to allow blacks to recieve full fellowship, while certainly could have happened is not supported by evidence, at least that I know of.

The claim that Blacks were not allowed to be members, not quite accurate.

Vietnam was before my time but it is my understanding that many Mormons chose Missionary service as a way to avoid Vietnam.They were classified as ministers and recieved a minesterial deferrment.I know alot of members used National Guard and reserve service as a way to avoid the draft also.

I liked the quotes on the "Curse of Cain" though. Those always are great because they let the leadership speak for themselves.

I served a mission in Thailand in the late 1970s/early 1980s. There were several missionaries there who had FIRST served in Vietnam, THEN went on a mission.

Somehow Mitt didn't chose to do that.

Considering his support for that conflict I find it odd and perhaps hypocritical on his part.

Chickenhawk, yea it fits...

How many mormons got deferments like Mittens and how many of those were black?

Obviously no blacks would have recieved a deferment, I suspect MANY missionaries would have benefitted from this.

Another question is how many Mormons found refuge in the Guard/Reserve. I remember when my guard unit was activated for Iraq. We had two guest speakers at a church sponsored fireside. One was from a member of the Quorom of the Seventy that had been an infantry officer in Vietnam. The other was a Stake President from Price who told us that he had joined the Guard during Vietnam to stay out of Vietnam. I first couldn't believe that he would publicly admit this. Secondly, I was amazed at the look the GA gave him. If looks could have killed.

I think the best question is this: Of all the Mormons that you know from the Vietnam years how many of them are Vietnam Veterans? Therein lies your answer.

I didn't start meeting Vietnam Vets until I stopped being a Mormon.

He was drafted, but since he had just departed his mission to the South (whew!), he didn't have to go to "Nam". We will call him Dodger. He absolutely did NOT want to go.
The church had some kind of deal with da Gubmit where a quota of missionaries could go on missions. Maybe someone older than me recalls the agreement.
When Dodger got home from his mission, the war was still on, but since he was a splendid typist, he drove a Smith Corona.
Later, he decided, "what the hell!" and went into the infantry.
Ambushed, wounded, he came home.
Lucky he was except for PTSD. I don't rmemeber what they call it back then.

Next, I want to defend my brother. His draft number was ridiculously low and I forget how many draft notices he got, which he could defer since he was in college. He didn't want to go, either, By the time the war ended, brother was still in college. Our brother, Bill Clinton did this, too?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2012 03:26PM by scooter.

Clearly. But maybe I don't either?

A chickenhawk is someone who wants you to fight a war he says he supports, while navelgazing from the comfort and safety of his armchair at home--but who calls anyone else who did the same thing both a draft dodger and a traitor.

A chickenhawk is a general who pushes for a full scale invasion of a hotly contested ridge with very little strategic advantage, which will result in the deaths of thousands of young men doing the actual fighting, while he himself is phoning in those orders from a place thousands of miles away. And whose own sons are stashed in made-up jobs, within some non combat unit, of some nearly extinct domestic defense corps, back home.

Close?

The Vietnam war was a war that a lot of people didn't support. Young men were looking for any way they could to get out of being drafted.

You could hardly blame them. They were kids who came home from school and saw the bloody and dying on their TV screens. Every night the news anchors would announce how many more boys had died that day. Most people in America couldn't figure out why we were over there, and why should they send their sons to die there. It was a useless, hopeless war.

There were thousands who protested it. I would call it the closest thing i've seen to an uprising. American boys were going to Canada in the droves to hide out and keep from being drafted. If you were lucky your parents could afford to send you to college. Another piece of luck was if you had something wrong with you and they wouldn't draft you. There was a lot of talk among the guys I knew about how to either fake or get some kind of disability. I didn't know a single person that willing went into that war.

My brothers draft # was 4. We were all horrified. He's a gentle emotional person. We could not see how he could go into that hell and come back in one piece. It didn't seem possible. He was very lucky, he was a Mormon.

He got his Mission call to Bolivia. I think his mission was difficult for him. There was some kind of turmoil gong on in Bolivia at the time. He was shot at several times. Still, it was preferable to Vietnam. He came back alive and not in a body bag.

I was in high school when all this was going on. I remember the shootings at Kent state. It terrified us that we could get shot down by our own government for protesting a war. A war that we never should have been involved in. There was a lot of fear in the air. It was not a good time. If I had been a male with a draft # I would have done my level best to not be sent to Vietnam.

For the information of younger people who missed out on the finer points of keeping out of Vietnam: not only did many American young men go to Canada, but I was told by a young Mexican American that young men of his ethnic background were going to Mexico,too. At the time, he said that if the war should continue until he was draft age, he would definitely "visit relatives" in Mexico.

told us years later that the day his nephews became of draft age, they would be getting plane tickets to Canada.

this was the conversation among the tug captains at Cam Rahn Bay, and they all agreed to this course of action.

Romney is quoted, talking about his missionary days in France:

http://blogs.reuters.com/talesfromthetrail/2011/12/22/door-knocking-romney-reprises-missionary-days/

Many French people at the time were “not happy to see Americans, because we were in Vietnam at the time.
That was tough,” he added.

So, during the Vietnam war, (specifically 1968, the year that 16,592 Americans were killed in Vietnam) pro-war Romney
(who got 4 draft deferments) had it "tough" in France because of the Americans in Vietnam.

all of the above;

I went on my mish about the same time, but I wasn't screaming for Blood from the VietNamese, the Chinese, or anyone else.

Most Mormons just Don't Get 'Live & let live'

I get not wanting to go to war. Vietnam was a huge mistake. We had no business there and it was a costly war with no clear purpose.

Romney, however, did the opposite of John Kerry. Romney counter-protested, denouncing those who did not want to fight. Instead of signing up himself, he went to France as a missionary when missions were considered optional. Romney could have enlisted if he was so engaged in the war. Instead, he tried to shame others for not doing what he refused to do himself.

The only word I can think for that is "hypocrite".

My Husband and I grew up with the war thing all around in the '60's & early 70's. My husbands family would have probably disowned him if he had tried to get out of the draft by moving to Canada or any other country. His father and Uncles had all served in WWII , so they would never have been okay with any form of draft dodging.

So my husband (a teenager at the time) did some research and planned to go into the Red Cross or some type of comparable "helping agency" where as a volunteer you go to various foreign countries to help the poor and the needy. This type of volunteer work takes you out of the draft Poole, but seen as honorable by Veterans.

I read somewhere that Jim Morrison (of the DOORS rock band) said that he avoided the draft in the 60's by saying he was a homosexual...didn't give a damn what his parents or anyone thought about it.

And ironically Morrisons Father was a Rear Admiral in the US Navy,(the highest rank you can attain in the Navy), and his Father fought in the Battle of Pottempkin, a VERY CONTROVERSIAL BATTLE at the time, thousands of casualties.

So why didn't guys who didn't want to be drafted just go in to the draft board and yell "I'm GAY!! The military has NEVER taken admitted gays, even in draft times, since WWII.

Saying your gay would have worked for ALL the US wars since WWII.
IT'S SO OBVIOUS!!!!! Then, like Jim Morrison, you are free to be in a rock band and sing anti-war songs, do lots of drugs and stay clear and free at home! I'm a woman. But I'd do that in a heartbeat if I were facing being drafted into ANY WAR, including the two wars we are currently fighting.

Go ahead and volunteer to serve these days if you feel it is the right thing to do, but I'll NEVER agree to serve in ANY WAR untill all the politicians have sent all their sons and daughters FIRST. Die for Oil in the Middle East? No F....g WAY!