So I read these books about the FLDS again and women escaping from it. All I can think is, what can you do about this? If women and children are being tormented and abused, how can this be stopped? Does the mainstream church have a responsibility to do something about the FLDS? I've read about mainstream Mormon cops just sending folks trying to run away home.

One thing is for certain, reading these books makes me HATE Joseph Smith. He was no different than Warren Jeffs and folks following him blindly makes me feel so irate.

They are completely 2 different unaffiliated churches. They don't have any more responsibility or anything to do with each other than the Catholic church does.

I disagree. SLC mainstream LDS created the first polygamist branches, and financed the establishment of the sect colonies in Mexico, Canada and Colorado City. This alone is enough to make them completely responsible for the crimes of the sects.

But they have also nourished the polygamist sects, especially the many based in Utah, by engaging in a calculated hands off policy regarding their existence and crimes.

They created polygamy, then they created the outlaw sects, then they nourished them financially and gave them legal protection until today. They have a complete responsibility to use their powers and wealth to end these criminal sects in Utah and elsewhere.

the filmmaker (a native Israeli Jew) interviewed a bunch of people from the Anti-Defamation League. He followed them all around the US and Israel (with their blessing).

His conclusion was that US Jews see Israel as a safety net -- a place to go "Just in case."

I see the relationship between "mainstream" LDS and FLDS as similar. Polygamy exists in the CK in mainstream Mormonism. Many people off the ranch have polygamists living in their neighborhoods, and it's not a closely held secret.

How did Mittens' folks end up in Mexico? To keep The Prinicple alive.

There is a duty, but I think no one in authority will ever act on it because this is how Joseph Smith and Brigham Young *lived*.

The whole, "We will ex polygamists" is a pick and choose game. The FLDS is The One True Church, and COJCOLDS *knows* and *protects* them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2012 09:36PM by Beth.

I enjoy disagreeing with someone I think so highly of - it usually means I will learn something. So here's a little scenario to see what you do with it.

A couple are married. While married they get hooked on heroin together. They get divorced.

One gets clean from the heroin addiction the other doesn't. After they are divorced is the clean one responsible for the actions of the other one who remains an addict?

I could see arguments either way, but to me the clean one would not be responsible for the others actions of person they are divorced from.

Or do you not think this analogy applies?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 01:11PM by bc.

I don't think the analogy applies, unless it can be shown that the ex-addict moves far away from the addict ex, and in fact has nothing further to do with the ex in any way. And even then, I think there is some moral responsibility involved, and that the ex addict is obligated to try to help the ex get clean if at all possible.

Let's look at your analolgy as it applies to the real-world situation of TSCC. TSCC claims they "divorced" from the polyg sects in 1890. They lied. They continued to seal plural marriages for another 16 years, after which they just sent polyg members in good standing to Canada and Mexico, and across the border to Arizona, to establish polyg colonies. They called them and they financed them, and even sent them officially approved sealers so they could continue the practice.

TSCC and its polyg offshoots have continued in an incestuous, co-dependent relationship until this day. I think your analogy can be fine-tuned to note that in the case of TSCC (the "ex-addict" divorcee, who has since his smackin days become quite wealthy and influential), it continues to live in the same house as the addict, continues to ensure that the addict is supplied with funds and needed enterprise, and does all they can to protect the addict from the sanctions of society and the laws of the land. Plus, ex-polyg addict TSCC had kids with the polyg-addicted ex, and the kids have had kids--but TSCC denies that they have any moral responsibility for the suffering of their mutual progeny while living in the home of an addicted grandma.

And yet, the ex-addict in this case denies that they ever had much of an addiction themselves, denies that they still advocate smack addiction as a high value, denies they have an addict ex, denies that the addiction is pernicious and intractable, publicly and falsely minimizes the numbers of sufferers and harms caused by ex's addiction, denies that they ever had a relationship with the ex, and denies that they live with and shelter the addict. TSCC denies that the ex represents any significant social presence, and denies that the ex is causing anyone any problems of consequence. By aiding their ex's addiction-based lifestyle, TSCC also cultivates the "black market" of illegal smack (polygamy) and its "pushers", allowing the (polygamy) drugs and addictions to spread more widely thru the society.

Then they disingenuously claim that because they have no further legal connection to the ex, that they therefore have no moral or legal responsibility to mitigate the harms caused by the ex.

Am I seeing this correctly, BC?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 05:38PM by hello.

Well said. I guess in my mind at least for the last 50 years or so "the ex-addict moves far away from the addict ex, and in fact has nothing further to do with the ex in any way" is exactly what I perceive has happened.

It appears to me that the LDS church attempts to distance itself as aggressively as possible. Reading between the lines that is actually what the "do you affiliate with any group that..." temple recommend question is all about.

I don't deny the disgusting previous entanglement. I just don't get the impression that is still going on today.

In fact I see the opposite - it is a huge black eye that they do everything the can do to get as far away as possible from.

If they are currently more intertwined than I perceive they are then I agree with your completely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 06:59PM by bc.

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't deny the disgusting previous entanglement.
> I just don't get the impression that is still
> going on today.
>
> In fact I see the opposite - it is a huge black
> eye that they do everything the can do to get as
> far away as possible from.

Yes they do--in public.

I think you may be confused, as are many others, by the disconnect between public actions of TSCC as compared with how things really are, on the ground, as they say.

Here at rfm, we catalogue the way things really are in actual practice in MoLand. Morridor LDS culture was shaped by the teachings of the prophets of the 19th, or early 20th, century. Some of these cultural beliefs and practices are seen as embarrassing by TSCC today. So they make public pronouncements against them, or in favor of a more "loving, kinder and gentler" new set of teachings today.

But then, they undercut these new teachings by having some leaders repeat the old memes at local conferences. Plus, bishops and LDSCorp. lawyers continue to shelter LDS criminals who abide by 19th century LDS memes, such as in committing family violence and sex abuse. They preach love for gays, then spend to stop gay rights, and promote shunning of and violence against gays. Thus, there is something for everybody, the old school and the new order too.

My DW, Queen of Denial, loves to refer to "official" current church teachings in the Ensign which seem so loving, while denying the actual practices of the corp. and the Utah community as "unauthorized and wrong". But the practices are real, they are of long standing, and they are supported by the Corp..

Cultures change only slowly over time. Traditions tend to be tenacious.

Being a top-down organization, things in TSCC can change quickly. But such change is managed by the leadership. They may not want real change, they may only want to look progressive in public. Thus, the PR moves.

How does all this bs apply to our topic? Simple---there are tons of polygs living right in SLC neighborhoods, and no one tries to end their practices. People don't talk much about their activities. Bishops will not take any action against them. If young polygs are willing to lie to the bishops, most will even give them TR's. People will continue to do business with them, and marry their kids. Cops leave them alone, social workers too. Prosecutors and other government officers ignore them, and say their hands are tied. The final say in all this belongs to LDSCorp., as their powers in Utah society are considerable.

I don't believe that TSCC is powerless to limit these polyg groups. You might wish to believe them. They have lied often enough about polygamy in the past, why should I believe their current PR? They want to be SEEN as if they are opposed to polygamy. But their actions say different.

Why did it take Texas to stop Jeffs? Why couldn't Utah do what Texas did? Answer: LDSInc..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2012 02:56AM by hello.

Excellent summary.
Ld$inc. _runs_ Utah. Whether you want to face it or not.
They could easily step in and end the
continuing nightmare for these women and children.

The fact that tscc/profit/12 are basically
silent/distancing themselves is very revealing.
They have hamstrung themselves.
Silence on this issue is their ONLY option at this point.

If they were to release a pr statement
villifying polygamy,
members will start asking uncomfortable questions.....Can't have that.
Especially not with Mittler the golden boy's bid for the presidency....
They don't care if it goes on,
as long as it doesn't affect the tbm public relations of ld$inc= tithing $$$.

I'm wondering what it will take for the media
to start pressuring Utah to prosecute the polygamists.
Anyone have any ideas?

Yeah they need to cut that crap out.

You would think that it would be strongly in their best PR interest to strongly lean on the government to get polygamy taken care of. The actively polygamy practice in Utah is a PR nightmare for the church - many people don't differentiate the groups.

They seem more like cousins to me. Or relatives in general. Most of the Christian sects are related to each other, but with FLDS... I don't know. It's like some sort of skeezy underlying relationship. What can you do about something like this that isn't happening in some middle eastern country but right here in the US? The mainstream LDS certainly has a lot more power and money than someone like I do... I reckon I want them to swing in and RESCUE these suffering women and children.

Have you read "Under the Banner of Heaven?" I'll bet not.

If you had, you would understand that the FLDS is simply the Mormon Church not lite. They are actually following D&C 132, which the mainstream Mormon church prints and distributes "to fill the earth."

Don't you think they bear SOME responsibility for teaching people that polygamy is REQUIRED for celestial exhaltation?

Just saying...


Anagrammy

Polygamists? What? ERASED years ago.

They could never speak againsr the FLDS in anyting but extremely broad terms, because if they did, the cat would be out of the bag. As things stand now, they can continue to claim that the FLDS is an "offshoot" of the LDS, when in fact it's really the other way around. Not only are most nevermos unaware of Joe's story of the flaming sword and all the teen and already married brides, but most members are unaware of it also.

Can you imagine the news coverage if TSCC went after the the FLDS, and all those Colorado City Stepford women started talking about where their polygamy comes from?

That would forever end TSCC's ability to distance themsleves and deny, deny, deny.

Since when does the lds church take responsibility for anything that could reflect poorly on themselves?

Does the FLDS use the exact same D&C as LDS?

Case closed, IMHO...

My response would be no, but it brings up a similar question. Does mainstream Christianity have a responsibility to do something about Mormonism?

they should WANT to do something but I doubt they ever will. Like MJ said, they can't even take care of their own gd messes

No more than one Baptist Branch or one Lutheran Branch has the repsonsibility (or legal right) to go in and change something in another Baptist or Lutheran Branch.

What the LDS have a responsibility for (since UT is a theocracy) is to "allow" or "encourage" the politicians and law enforcement to stop looking the other way in regard to the FLDS.

What it comes down to is that, like everything else in the LDS Church, the Church pretends that "those crazy FLDS" just randomly decided to practice polygamy and the LDS Church is "way" above doing things such as that. There is no integrity there. Distance and pretense are key. It's ridiculous. The LDS may not have a duty to do something, but, if you wanna talk morals, you'd think they'd do something to help out the women and kids. Watch the movie "Sons of Perdition". You would think that if the LDS really thought it was "bad", they'd be trying to do something.

If you think about it, without polygamy and the first & second manifestos, and the constant manipulation of polygamy and what it means, the church would be a couple of people scratching out a living in the desert.

Instead, they incensed people enough that the government came after them. Result everybody from Utah to Sherlock Holmes, (Doyle), knows about them and spreads publicity all over the world.

When you ask most people about Mormons, the most likely answer will involve polygamy.

Polygamy drives interest in the church because sex sells.

I doubt they will ever do anything about polygamy, (other than claim it doesn't exist), because it drives interest in the church. And the church knows there is no such thing as bad publicity. Particularly when the church is able to exploit it.

That's a great point.
Thanks

Here's what I wish they would do:

1. Apologize. "We are sorry we started, protected and encouraged polygamy, ever, in our church. We believe and loved our prophets, but they were wrong about that harmful practice and we apologize for perpetuating it. We are sorry for the damage done with this practice and will do everything in our power to prevent it from entrapping more uninformed women and children under the guise of religion.

2. Repudiate any teachings that involved polygamy. "We hereby remove D&C section 132 from our official doctrine. The "new and everlasting covenant" is no longer supported and believed as having divine origins. We do not believe in marriages, even in an afterlife that embraces polygamy." We will not "seal" multiple women to one man with the belief that they will be in polygamous relationships in the CK.

3. Clean up and enforce. "We will actively participate in protecting isolated children from being recruited into polygamy and will help pass laws requiring higher legal ages and proof of informed consent. We will persecute and report any man who encourages multiple women to have his children with the intent to "bleed the beast" (welfare). We will consider supporting our lawmakers (heavily influenced in Utah by our church) in making and enforcing laws against older men "marrying" children and having religious freedom to do it." (You get the idea.)

Yes, I know. I'm delusional! I can dream, can't I?

I think the responsibility for the creation of the FLDS lies firmly with the historical LDS church under Taylor, without a doubt. Yet another ugly bout with the past they just wish would go away and stop staining their "yay middle-class America white picket fence" church. The two are irreconcilable now and there's honestly nothing the LDS church COULD probably do at this point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2012 01:26AM by flyboy21.