About something I posted here a little earlier, I have a question for some people. I described a friend of our family who was being recruited to play football by West Point and BYU and was trying to decide between them. I made a point that at west Point he would have to put up with a lot of "religous radicals" and "douchbag warmongor types." A few people were very offended by that and said "it made them cringe." Well first of all I was not saying that ALL people in the military are that way, and secondly here are my experiences in the miltiary that were not plesant. I was in ARMY ROTC in college and did not complite it (very painful experience) a lot of my fellow cadets were the type of people with very immature personalities who would judge everyone else but could see no flaws in themselves (one example). Second I was exposed to a lot of both religious and right wing propoganda such as "if a democrat gets elected we will be hit again in a few months." I than did a two year enlisted hitch in the Army, where I was with kids who said they want to "kill some Iraqis" and "blow @#$%& up" and a lot of people who just joined to stay out of prison or off the streets adn get a paycheck. I just wonder why some people on here took offense to my comment about "SOME" of the people at West Point or in the Military? There is still a large part of our society that thinks "EVERYONE" in the miltary is "honorable" and "brave" and considers it politically incorrect to say anything bad about people in the military. while I met some really great people and great friends, I never met more pathological liars, scum, and self rightous assholes before in my life (once again not everyone). And I know West Point does attract a lot of "self rightous" and "immature idiolistic" kids among other things (I used to want to go there badly). In some ways the Army was a lot like TSCC for me. I just want to know why this assesment makes some of you "cringe" and why?

If I recall, your original post DID imply that West Point (and military people in general) were "war-mongering douchebags". Many of us on this board are veterans and took offense at your words. You apologized but it seems as though you still really believe that.

I served three years in the Army and twenty in the National Guard (one year in Iraq), I am very proud of my service and my experience was in no way similar to yours. Some of the best people I met were in the military. I did meet some people who were challenged mentally and emotionally but overall I did not have many negative experiences.

I think what really bothered me about your posts was the question you were asking. Frankly, I felt it was a contrived attempt to compare West Point to BYU. Which is impossible because of the difference between the two schools, they simply are like comparing apples and carrots, they have virtually nothing that can be compared,

Secondly, I question the facts of your story, I do not believe that someone really asked you for their advice in a matter such as this for one reason, the answer is just so obvious,why would some kid who was not interested in serving five years as an officer in the U.S. Army even consider West Point, any chance of ANY job afterwards are pretty much non-existant (for five years anyways)?

Thirdly,your description of the military as being frightened of Democrats and atheists is simply not true,leading me to question you and your military service. In my experience, I met many,many people who were of all political,and religious backgrounds with virtually no bias. I knew Wicccans, Baptists, Mormons and Atheists. Republicans,Democrats and Libertarians. In Iraq, I knew plenty of soldiers that had questions about why we were there and plenty that felt we were right for being there. I knew soldiers who had voted for Kerry and those who had voted for Bush. The ONLY thing that anyone cared about was their abillity to do their job, whatever it was.

West Point is a well respected school that has produced Presidents,diplomats and many leaders in our nations history. It is a scool that has earned a place in Amercan Higher learning, a producer of leaders. BYU is a Mormon school in the west that produces followers and sheep..Hell, the leadership of the church didn't even go there.

I guess the main reason that your post was criticized was because it was felt that you were criticizing people individually on this board and that your argument was contrived to generate discussion.

But hey, I could be wrong...Sometimes we post something that no one else appreciates....Lord knows that I have..

Yes..I know I typo'd "school"....My bad.

Hmmmm, I never saw your original post. But my husband served for 23 years. We saw all types in the miliatry, as WT mentioned, but it was more because we were known liberals than because of anything else. Most liberals stay under the radar, it's not always a wise career move.

I would agree and I think any demographic poll would show that most military members and spouses are more conservative than liberal. I think what many people get mad about here and I do too on some issues is generalizations. Nobody likes to be categorized.

I will say though that more than one person came up to my husband and said 'shoot one for me' when he was sent to Iraq, oh and that was at church and in the chapel.

I've known, over a period of time, four young men who were attending service academies, and they were all great guys -- intelligent, hard-working, and broad minded. Their characters are above reproach. They all desired to get a good education and to serve their country in exchange for that. I know that there are also some jerks at service academies, but there are jerks at every school.

I think that kids who go to service academies have a pretty good notion of what they are getting into, and what is expected of them in return. It's not for everyone, but for some kids it's a great experience.

Wow - you're still bothered by the response you got to a thread three months ago? About the choice of a child that's not yours?

You stated in that original thread that the kid would encounter, and I quote "a lot of douche bag war monger types" and "a lot of religious indoctrination". Not some. A lot. Remember - he was going to be SURROUNDED, according to you, by Evangelicals condemning him. (something apparently that you don't seem to see at BYU). And people with military backgrounds, some with personal experience attending (or family attending) West Point, corrected you.

YOu asked for opinions on whether BYU or West Point would be a better indoctrination spot, and frankly - you didn't like that the majority stated West Point, which you clearly don't like. Arguably, since you've brought it back up twice now, there's a different issue here. You're disturbed that people would disagree with you about West Point. You were taken to task for the blanket you put over the institution (which was a blanket accusation).

The better choice, in the outside world of Mormonism, is West Point. It's a highly respected place of learning, which yes - is specifically geared toward a military education. That said - if someone has no intention of military service, West Point is not an option. Period. You are required to serve. That's part of the education.

It's clear you don't like West Point. You don't like the responses you got to your original question, and you're skirting and trying to change what you said.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the Army. Your personal experience is not the universal one, however.

You got responses because you asked a question and posed a very specific point of view which others disagree with. What makes me cringe about your assessment is that you're refusing to acknowledge that others have very different experiences. They don't discount yours, but don't agree with the universal assessment you have of West Point.


Are all military people perfect? No. But West

West Point.

Just sayin'.

My experience is with people who went to the Naval Academy and I don't recall if I ever knew anyone who went to West Point, but maybe.

Are you maybe assuming that the often-stereotyped rank-and-file mentality is the same up-rank? I'm not sure that it is.

And comparing West Point with BYU is crazy - there is no comparing the two. At all.

I work with Air Force people, retired and active. Many of them ARE very right wing, very opinionated, and quite hypocritical (they HATE "Obama-care" but love their TRI-CARE).

Then tend to be quite a bit to the right of political spectrum as a group.

They believe that their service to their country trumps anything that anyone else has done in their lives.

Just telling it like it is....

I had to laugh when I read the 'but they love their Tri-Care' comment. Only because in one of the wards we attended there was a uber-right wing (pre-tea party but wouldn't be surprised if they founded it) group of military members who whined and complained that the government gave pell grants to students or student loans or all those wellfare moms or subsidized housing or Medicaid or Medicare or on and on and on.

I kept thinking holy crap all of you guys live the most socialist life of any American, you get base housing or an allowance that's not taxed, many of you get your education paid for and NOT while your working but as your job, you get free medical care not just for you but your whole family. Seriously, I'm sorry but I'd never met such a huge group of hypocrits in my life. It was absolutely barf worthy.

Friend

After you figure out that religion is a crock, the next logical step is patriotism.

Both are tools to control the masses, both cause people to perform base acts of savagery, demonising, murdering, genocide, rape and pillage.

It's always the young, often brave, but well trained (just like dogs) that will go off and do their master's bidding, committing atrocities and unspeakable acts of barbarism.

The human family hasn't made any progress in this respect.

It's a curse that afflicts the planet, and one on which the warmongering arms and weapons manufacturers love and clap thier hands at.

Grey

It takes a certain kind of person to survive 4 years at West Point or Annapolis or Colorado Springs. And I do not think that they are warmongering people, and definitely not douche bags. The indoctrination you talk about is in the very first summer (Plebe Summer?), and is meant to weed out all the people not suitable for combat. You absolutely need people that can act and respond under fire. You need people that can and will follow orders. if you don't , people die as a result.

But, where would this country be overall IF we did not have folks like those that go to West Point to answer the call, right or wrong, when the $h!t hits the fan somewhere in the world. My step-dad was a retired army Colonel, served 23 years. He had five awards of the Purple Heart. He had a Silver Star, he had a Bronze Star too. he fought in N. Africa and Italy. He survived D-Day on Omaha Beach (first wave, 50% of his unit died on the beach), and was with the group that rescued the guys trapped at Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. He also fought in Korea and in the very very early times in S. Vietnam. He was the most honorable man I ever met. He hated war, but knew that this country needed to be ready to fight anytime anywhere.

We need guys like my step-dad "on the wall" and ready to defend our right to come on a board like this and dis the very people that give us that right.

I'm going to answer this as a non-mormon person who is from a military family (as in I can count the people who haven't served in my family on one hand; kids are in, husband on last deploy 3 years prior to oldest kid going on hers, that sort of thing):

Yep, you're going to find some first class scumbags in the military. First class scumbags are everywhere. I consider them an integral part of reality.
Most of the people, however, who run around glorifying the troops are not the actual troops themselves. I don't know why they do it -- most seem to want to use the troops to make some political point or, I don't know, gain themselves special, bonus brownie patriot points. Most have never been in and will definitely not send their own special cupcakes in; they also seem to be the ones that like the idea of sending our military to fight everywhere (because I guess our troops are like inivincible, human cyborgs who never get tired or hurt or something). Along with them and the jerks who like to throw up pictures of totally fubar'd troops and laugh at their injuries (that somehow they deserve it for being in the military) -- well, this might explain why some military folks have a chip in regards to civilians.

As for indoctrination: of course the military indoctrinates. They have to; war's an ugly and frightening business. So, most of the get some smack talk usually comes from 1)wet behind the ears newbies straight out of basic ooorah speech; 2) dumb wet behind the ears officers trying to give ooorah speeches to folks just before a deployment -- which are hilarious; 3)or experienced troops who are gearing up. This isn't new or unique though -- every military has had to do this; quite a lot of whistling past the graveyard for understandable reasons...so, I say give people a bit of a pass; they have to come to grips with the idea of getting blown up, or shot, or burnt alive -- they're not going to be all philosophical and sweetness.

And Tri Care most definitely *****! I hated TriCare. Maybe it's better for officers; I've never met anyone else who liked it that much. But, but...I say give people some pass on the griping about welfare and Pell grants -- they and their loved ones have to face down deployments, and the stress is considerable (and I'll admit to some not kind thoughts on a certain piece of work cousin of mine who got every bit of gov't assistance she could, would never work...and then made fun of me, my husband, and my kids as "suckers" for actually going out and serving for it; that can really slant a person's perspective).

As for just like your church: I don't know, but I do know this: people are indoctrinated in the military for a reason (nobody would do what they do without a little ooorah, get some, pump up speech) and if we all woke up tomorrow to a military that had completely vanished, we might be up a creek (the world is after all full of nasty scumbags)...I'll use my old church: could the same be said if we all woke up tomorrow to the Catholic church disappeared? I mean, some people would be upset but would we have the same pragmatic need and necessity?
And I know that while there are some sterling people in my old church (some of them my favorite people), there's also some real scumbags and the institution isn't as pure and shining as it's supposed to be (which by the way, the military as a shining institution has come about thanks to this social view of things since the volunteers took over -- part of the making them into shiny, invincible robots instead of people I think).

anonagnostic, it sounds like you and I have much in common. I am a nevermo with lots of military in my family of origin. My husband is also in the military.

Yes, there are assholes in the military, but there are assholes everywhere. I have been around a lot of different groups of people. I did something decidedly liberal and joined the Peace Corps. I ran into jerks in that organization, too. It always irritates me when people take a NIMBY attitude about military service or act like people who choose military service need special help or protection. It's a perfectly respectable career choice for many people and no one who serves is a child.

As for Tricare, I am definitely with you. I grew up with Tricare and had civilian insurance that I paid for for about six years. I held onto my insurance for two years after I married an Army man because I did not want to have to use Tricare. I finally let it go when I realized that every time we moved, I would have to deal with insurance coverage. Plus, individual health insurance is expensive! I am an officer's wife and was an officer's daughter. It sucks for us, too. I especially hate the way the military gets paternalistic with families and tries to insert themselves in family healthcare. They forced me to join EFMP against my will before we moved to Germany. Luckily, they let me disenroll when my husband raised a stink.

I, for one, am grateful for people who choose to serve. In many countries around the world, military service is not optional. In the United States, it is something people volunteer to do for whatever reason. I would not want to be in the military, despite the "perks". So I'm glad that others are willing and able to do what I don't want to do (and probably would never be allowed to do).

My husband will retire in a couple of years. He gripes about the Army, but I know he's loved his years serving his country. The Army was a lifesaver in many ways... It even help him escape Mormonism.

tombs1, I'm not sure you really understand what West Point is about. Any comparison between West Point and BYU is pointless. West Point is an intensely structured environment, where every activity is about excellence. It is, without doubt, one of the finest institutions of higher learning in the world. The student to teacher ratio is extremely low and the academic standards are exceptional. The faculty, the curriculum, the infrastructure, and the facilities are the really the finest in the world. There is no place like it. To gain admission is extremely difficult, and to finish first in your class (as my cousin did) is a superlative achievement.

I am a professor at an institution of higher learning (not West Point) and I have 4 degrees from BYU, two of which are superb degrees, and two of which are mediocre. I really liked some of my experiences at BYU and many of my professors, but BYU is not even in the same universe as West Point.

West Point does not admit or tolerate mediocrity. An offer of admission to a place like West Point is an incredible honor. I'm not in the military, and don't particularly care for the military culture on a personal level, but I have incredible respect for West Point.

I think some young cadets at West Point are targeted by Mormonism. I dated a guy who converted at West Point (before we met).

He was smart but latched on very intensely to Mormonism to the point where he was an authoritarian douchebag (to date, that is)! Named a bunch of his kids B of M names. Ick!