I was interested to read your Sunstone talk because frankly, I’ve been asking myself the same question: why do you stay? I consider the mormon church to have a high potential for functioning as a toxic, abusive, manipulative and greedy cult. Leaving such a church requires very little justification. Staying does, as I suspect you feel too. Or else, why deliver this talk?

You start your talk by saying you don’t believe in the god of mormonism, you don’t believe in the book of mormonism and you don’t believe in the authority of mormonism. An excellent start.

You then acknowledge the abusive aspects of the mormon church, its ugly, hateful attitudes towards gays, towards women, towards blacks, towards the disaffected. I suppose your time was limited but if it hadn’t been, you could have listed many more groups that have been and are still being targeted by those you mistake for “good or otherwise well-intentioned men”. You could do a search on the term “so-called” at lds.org for a comprehensive list. You will find very little that is good or well-intentioned on that list.

So if you don’t believe in the god, the book nor the authority of mormonism, and you know the church has a high potential for abuse, why do you stay?

You say you believe in a higher purpose but you don’t need to be loyal to an abusive, manipulative group to find purpose in your life.

You say there are spiritual truths in mormonism but if they are truths, they will stand by themselves. You don’t need to be loyal to an abusive, manipulative group to appreciate them.

You say the church is beautiful when functioning at its best but in order to see it, you must trivialize as “occasional harm” the tens and hundreds of thousands of “causualties” to which you initially paid lip-service.

You say that you accept the frailties of mormonism because there are frailties everywhere. Just because others are doing it, though, doesn’t make it right.

You say you need to be reminded and motivated to be a good husband and father but if your wife and children aren’t sufficient motivation by themselves, what good will any church do?

You say the ordinances, covenenants and commandments have value and meaning to you but have you made these with God or the church? And how can these covenants even be relevant if you do not accept the authority by which they were made?

You say the church will change. Well, battered wives often think the same of their husbands but abusers hardly ever change. Why should they if you stand by them anyway?

You say all mormons are cafeteria mormons. That is a very good point but beliefs don’t matter in mormonism, as your “good and otherwise well-intentioned” friend Boyd Packer has repeatedly stated. Only behaviour matters to him and his ilk.

You say you want to stay connected with your kin in church matters but that is merely begging the question.

You say you don’t want your children to sit alone in church but they wouldn’t if you spent your Sunday mornings with them at home.

You say you don’t want to part company with thoughtful mormons with famous last names. I don’t know if this is meant as shallow as it sounds but regardless, there’s no reason for you to be a part of an abusive, manipulative cult in order to associate with truly thoughtful people.

You say you see many positive fruits of mormonism in the lives of everyday mormons but you are mistaken. The good is in the people and it is there in spite of the church, not because of it.

You say you don’t want to throw away your heritage but nobody is asking you to. The matter at hand is your allegiance to an abusive, authoritarian organization. If you would break that allegiance, you would still be you.

You say you love the church because it’s as dysfunctional as you are. Even if that were true (which it isn’t, it’s just the church manipulating you with feelings of guilt ), don’t you think you deserve better? You deserve better!

You say you can effect positive change within the church but you are kidding yourself. The church is nothing but a means to an end and the end is money. History has shown that only money can effect lasting change within the church.

Dear John, stop kidding yourself and face the consequences of what you say you have learned. Yes, it will be hard. Yes, you will lose most of your friends because they belong to a cult that ostracizes ex-members, as you well know.

Yes, you will lose the adoration of your followers because they are grasping at straws as desperately as you are and they will resent you for not remaining that straw.

And yes, outside mormonism you will just be another nobody like me. But let me assure you, it’s great to be a nobody. It’s great to be finally free.

When first hearing John Dehlin's talk, I came away with the thought that his "higher purpose" is to remain a Mormon in order to provide members a safe place to seek answers outside of lds.org; most members usually would not trust "anti-Mormon" sources. OR, the CEO's of LDSInc encourage him in his endeavor and remain a member, to try and keep as many doubters and unbelievers "in the fold". Gotta keep those numbers up, or they'd have to start shuttering up their chapels. And they don't want the bad publicity before the election. LDSInc probably launders $$ through a third party to fund his "rescue mission"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 04:38PM by gnosticguru.

An excellent post which should be published in the Tribune !!!

Well, thank you, I'm flattered. I wouldn't know how to go about that but if anyone wants to run with it, feel free!

I agree this should be published in the Tribune.

John's talk was completely mystifying. You nailed it. And what was the blubbering about? Is someone in his family seriously ill? Is he losing it? Does he realizing he's giving many people an excuse to continue to subject their children to the destruction of the mormon church? Will any gay children kill themselves because John helped their parents stay? There are consequences of "leadership."

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Does he realizing he's giving many people an
excuse to continue to subject their children to
the destruction of the mormon church? Will any
gay children kill themselves because John helped
> their parents stay? There are consequences of
> "leadership."

Exactly.
What a mess....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2012 11:36PM by freenow.

Dear John- Your remarks were excellent. The comprehensiveness of your considerations were profound, and yet so personal that I would expect you to say them just to me. I would recommend to any Mormon struggling with faith matters to consider your remarks.

But then if that Mormon were to ask me for my final assessment of your remarks, I would make the following analogy: If I had a big pile of stuff in my front room, and upon inspection found that it was just a big pile of crap, I would start to get rid of it. If a guy in a suit came in and said, "Don't get rid of it, there's a diamond in there, you just have to find it!" To that I would just have to stop and consider, 'Do I want this big pile of crap in my front room, or should I take this idiot's word for it that something good is in there?'

In the end, "for me," Mormonism is just a big pile of crap and it's not worth it to me to dig through it to find some alleged speck of something that might be worth something.

Some of the greatest thinkers in the world agree with that analogy explicitly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9UvnrARf8#t=70m30s

Lawrence Krauss (in link above) says: "Just forget the whole thing." That's the tack I am taking in my life largely because, though I see the value in your strategy of staying connected with your family and friends in sacred things, staying connected to Mormonism makes too many Gentiles I respect highly hate or disrespect me. The value I got out of staying tenuously connected cost me too much.

But again, I found your remarks to be eloquent and worth considering. Thank you.

One CAN be an apologist for a lot of crazy-assed #!t but one CAN NOT expect to be considered rigorously logical while doing so.

Excellent letter.

To me, John wants to serve two masters, he wants to talk about the bad aspects of thoe church and his disbelief, while continuing to enjoy the perks and associatins that come with remaining mormon. If this is what makes him happy, good for him. I think many, including GAs, have made a similar choice to stay regardless of not believing it to be true or by convincing themselves it is. Most of the people who leave though, are those who cannot continue to dance to two tunes, their integrity just doesn't allow it.

I do believe he does more damage than good to those who are doubting because by staying after not believing, he sends to message to continue to endure while putting doubts on a shelf, even after discovering to be uncomfortable truths, back to the shelf they go.

John Delhin is just the opposite of AnnointedOne, who could probably have been the next Uchtdorf but instead he chose to stand for something and left.

I agree with those that say that this letter should be published. Good job rt.

Just my thoughts,
D

Great letter. I agree it needs to be shared.

I had some of the same thoughts when reading John's "Why I Stay."