as it is found in nature, in over 3000 species.

I read a study not too long ago (http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/gay-men-make-mothers-and-aunts-fertile-study-claims150512) that suggested that homosexuality could be the result of certain genes in the mother that make her unusually fertile, and the evolutionary advantage is to protect the numerous offspring of the relatives without worrying about their own.

Regardless of whether this is true, homosexuality is limited to about 5-10% of the species, meaning we're able to continue to propogate as a species even with it happening. Obviously humanity is thriving even though many gays aren't reproducing.

Also, let me assure you that, to me, having sex with a woman isn't natural. I was married to a woman for 7 years, and being gay ruined it. Just because I don't feel heterosexual sex is right for me doesn't give me the right to try to ruin it for everyone else.

... un-natural.

Any information to the contrary is, of course, more than welcome.

I do wish, however, that the homophobes would either get a valid argument or shut the f**k up.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 12:46PM by Timothy.

I'm not usually a fan of meme-posters but this one fits so well:

http://twitter.com/TheresaLalonde/statuses/225609642124910593

Good luck.

People like rghc and exmo99 are now experts at painting lipstick on their imaginary pig, and don't want to hear any new information that might make their prettily-decorated pig go POP! and dissipate in the sunlight of intelligent truth like the soap-bubble it really is.

After dealing with that sort for the last 30 years, I've found that there is no convincing them or persuading them with truth or reality.

That may be true, but being attacked out of the gate isn't going to help at all.... You might want to go a bit easier on them. Besides, the most homophobic often have homosexual tendencies themselves. They've both left mormonism, maybe someday they'll be able to see through this lie as well.

But there is no clear medical evidence that hard-core haters ever admit what their personal freak is even to themselves, let alone come out of the closet.

Throwing them out of their closet is another story, but I have no intention of following any of them around with a video camera in hopes of catching them drooling on a Congressional Page, or tapping their feet in an airport somewhere, or taking a rent-boy on a European Vacation, or whatever.

You can't heal the Truly Fucked Up of the world. You simply can't. Nobody has that much time, and while you're trying to heal them, they're out inciting mischief. Neville Chamberlain tried the "healing" route and it didn't go so well for him. It's far more effective to bash back, swiftly and on the mark.

Even as an atheist, I still have a place for the Golden Rule---yes, I think they're wrong, but attacking them just doesn't help.

The best bet is to work on changing society so that people that hold their viewpoint will be increasingly viewed as bigots---this is already happening. But the battle is being won by showing open-minded people that gay feelings are natural, not by attacking those who disagree.

If you don't think there is an in-place and operational attack strategy in play to isolate and corral the likes of Abiding Truth Ministries, American Family ASsociation, Americans for Truth About Homosexuality, Chalcedon Foundation, Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, Concerned Women for America, Coral Ridge Ministries, Dove World Outreach Center, Faithful Word Baptist Church, Family Research Council, Family Research Institute, Focus on the Family, Heterosexuals Organized for a Moral Environment, Illinois Family Institute, Liberty Counsel, MassResistance, National Organization for Marriage, Traditional Values Coalition, not to mention Mormons Inc., Catholics Inc., and all the other homophobic religions and cults out there, you are an eensy bit naïve.

Those hater-folks (and I'm being generous even considering of them as human) declared war on August 17, 1992, with this speech:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071018035401/http://www.buchanan.org/pa-92-0817-rnc.html
Here is what they declared war on, and why:
"[...] abortion on demand, a litmus test for the Supreme Court, homosexual rights, discrimination against religious schools, women in combat - that's change, all right. But it is not the kind of change America wants. It is not the kind of change America needs. And it is not the kind of change we can tolerate in a nation that we still call God's country. [...] There is a religious war going on in our country for the soul of America. It is a cultural war, as critical to the kind of nation we will one day be as was the Cold War itself."

War. A Cultural War. And LGBT people are among the enemy. You can reason with them and try to be nice all you want, but then that is to delude yourself into pretending their intentions might be anything other than what they so clearly stated. I don't treat with the enemy, I fight them. And there is a big difference between an open-minded person who wants to learn and understand, and a hater who wants you dead, or gone, or both.

For me, it's a question of motive; I didn't see exmo99 as hostile, just misinformed (yeah, we disagree there, that's okay). The organizations you mentioned here are completely out of bounds and hateful organizations that I would happily destroy if I had the chance.

Unfortunately his engineering degree does not qualify him to understand anything you just said...

That should take him a while...

Come on, lay off, a PHD in Engineering *IS* an impressive accomplishment, and he was only responding to being personally attacked.

Actually it was an MS.

And the statement holds true. Just because you have a degree in something does not mean you are qualified to understand everything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 01:40PM by fidget.

An MS, then... Still an impressive qualification.

But he didn't cite it as, "I have an MS in Engineering and therefore I'm an expert on gay relations." He stated it as "I'm not an idiot---I have an MS in Engineering," in response to an attack.

I'm inclined to defend him because I believe his viewpoint is honest even though I disagree. If he were to really try to empathize it might even change.

I attack Holland for his "I'm not a dodo" statement because he was intentionally lying and trying to use that stuff to back it up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 01:49PM by Xyandro.

That is giving him more credit than he's due, considering the document of his thoughts, all right there in that other thread.

Well, it appears we'll have to agree to disagree then---I didn't read it that way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 01:55PM by Xyandro.

For a long time I truly believed that ignorance could be met, challenged, and changed with information and truth. I used to be very active in an organization that performed an outreach service based on that premise.

I'm not going to try to pull any sort of experiential rank on you about this because sooner or later you, like all gay people no matter how well-meaning and optimistic, are going to run face-to-face into a super-hater whose cold hard implacable hate will not be melted with any amount of love, truth, facts, or patient long-suffering.

That is where I learned to spot the difference between those who want to learn and grow in understanding, and those who have absolutely no intention of learning or understanding. What you or I do with that knowledge is of course up to us individually. But I would like to call your attention to the fact that exmo99 is not here loading up your thread with any sincere want-to-know-the-truth-style questions about your or my quote lifestyle end-quote.

I realize that there are those that flat out hate and will listen to no reason; I just didn't get that vibe from exmo99. If I had, I wouldn't bother.

I thought your attack was premature, before he had established himself as a true hater. You have more experience in this; maybe you're right. But if you weren't, exmo99 probably isn't following these threads, instead thinking gays are hateful. Teaching opportunity (perhaps?) lost.

but it seems to me that xyz was spot on in his evaluation...xyz is very articulate and has some passion about this subject...which I applaud...there was/is some vitriol in xyz's posts toward 99...but I wont judge that as I am a straight guy and i haven't had to go thru what gay people go thru...

If exmo99 will read this maybe he will learn...and pardon me if i missed someone else pointing this out...

MANY gay and lesbians have children....many...especially in the Mormon environment of get married and you will not be gay anymore...gays and lesbians can and do have children...some "naturally" and some scientifically...he is an engineer so he should know about the scientific method...as opposed to the withdrawal method...ok trying to lighten it up here!! :) :);)

but yeah exmo99 doesnt seem like he will be or wants to be deterred from his thinking gay aint natural!! at least not from this seat it doesn't!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 03:13PM by bignevermo.

I'm not trying to attack him, I was making a statement that I think rings true.

I know nothing about exmo99, but some of the biggest idiots I've known are engineers.

Human rights.. simple.. basic human rights

I am straight but do not hate others for how they are born :)
That would be stupidly uninformed to me.... simple.

Peace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 01:09PM by mindlight.

Sexual relations are hard even if you are straight or homosexual couple. There's no room for happiness and pretension.

*Waves at Fidget!

Well, if the "unnatural" arguement is all some has then guess what else is "unnatural?"

in-vitro

IUDs

eyeglasses

Riding in airplanes, trains, and automobiles

man-made bridges

polyester-cotton blends (ok, only a lil' unnatural)

embalming the dead with formaldehyde

fridges and microwaves

pleather

plastic

plenty of drugs, both Rx and OTC

nail polish and many cosmetics

Velveeta cheese (still makes a kick ass dip with Ro Tel)

Shall I go on?

If anyone makes the "unnatural" argument about homosexualty, they better stop using all this crap immediately.

And, just think, all of these things came about because of the mormon religion, the one and only source of *ALL* truth.

Oh, wait, no they didn't... What did mormonism bring us again? :)

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Velveeta cheese (still makes a kick ass dip with
> Ro Tel)
>


Damned straight! Goes very well with the right type of chips and beer.

To quote the timeless wisdom of Mr. Snoop Doggy Dogg:

Hey hey, he gay, he gay... *shrug* ok...

The study Xyandro mentioned showed up on several science sites after it's publication a few weeks ago. Even Huffingtonpost did a piece on it. Sorry I don't have specific links, but it is fascinating! I encourage readers here to look at it. It is very interesting.

I've been saying this to my biology students for several years now: "DNA doesn't lie." It's true for homosexuality and I have also used this on family members when they have been brave enough to ask why I left the church. I have many reasons, but using DNA keeps it impersonal, concerete, and keeps "anti-mormon lies" accusations out of it.

Mine too. So supernatural as to be nonexistent.

I appreciate the post and information. I was not aware. No, I wasn't on this place almost all day after my last post this morning. I DO have a job and if you look at my post history I lurk a bit to get perspective and rarely post. I bet I have less than 50 posts in 6-7 years.

Education is an on-going process. My initial post in the other thread was not an attack on homosexuality or homophobic in any way. In fact, I've never posted neither in the history of my postings on ANY site. Yet I was blatantly attacked by someone with an agenda with incendiary comments about what I "believe". I dismissed him because of his delivery, not because of his message. I'm not as close-minded as he would portray me. I was actually trying to help him to see that his delivery of message is one of the things that is holding back his cause.

I disagree with "X". If you get in my face and yell that I'm wrong and insult me, it only riles me up and doesn't lead me to listen to whatever "educational" information you may have for me.

I have many homosexual friends. I don't treat them any differently than and of my other friends. Same goes for my black, white, hispanic, female, portuguese, etc friends. We're all stuck on this planet together, might as well get along...we're gonna disagree, it's in our "nature".

:)

Portugese? Disgusting people.

Some of the best seafood I've ever had in my life I was eating with my port brothers in the Algarve.

Some of the best food I've eaten, full-stop, has been Portugese.

"I haven't moved a goal post. In the natural biological environment - read: not in a lab - men and men cannot produce offspring. Neither can women and women. It is not natural.

Homosexuals want me to accept something that is unnatural as being natural."


ahh but it is...how is it unnatural? it would be unnatural for YOU to have sex with another man...but not unnatural for some 10% of the population sir.

I aslo posted this above...


"MANY gay and lesbians have children....many...especially in the Mormon environment of "get married and you will not be gay anymore"...gays and lesbians can and do have children...some "naturally" and some scientifically...he is an engineer so he should know about the scientific method...as opposed to the withdrawal method...ok trying to lighten it up here!! :) :);)"

just sayin!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 04:06PM by bignevermo.