I've posted links to several news stories on Facebook this last week. One was about the issue with the new building at the MTC and the other was the Business week article. So here is what I saw one of my friends posted this morning. Any suggestions on how I should respond would be appreciated.

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I just read on Facebook, for what seemed like the "umpteenth" time, some very unkind and negative attacks against the very thing which has brought so much hope, love, joy and happiness into my life; something which I hold to be priceless and dear to me: my religion, my faith, my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The sad thing about this is the person spewing forth all the bigoted vitriol is a childhood friend and associate. I replied to his negative post:

"(Name of friend), I am under the impression that you are no longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe this was of your own choice. I accept the fact that you apparently have a completely different view and interpretation of what is "truth." In spite of the evident "falling out" you have experienced, I have not seen any vitriol aimed at your belief system, or whatever it is that you seek to find personal harmony with yourself and/or with your concept of a higher power. So, why the lack of civility and good will toward others who do not believe the way you do? Why the personal attacks on the faith of so many of those who are or who once were your friends? What purpose does this vitriol serve? I would like to follow the life of (Name of friend), a friend, not worry about having to filter obscenely offensive, abject attacks against the source of so much happiness and joy in my life. Sorry for the direct nature of this post, but my friend, perhaps it is time for a real gut-check on what moral civility means."

I am acutely aware that people will exercise their moral agency, choosing to believe what they will, which will be at complete odds with what I choose to believe (I have several dear family members who fit this description). Believing is a choice, you must choose to believe whatever it is you believe, it is a matter of choice. So, why is it then, that people feel the need to attack another's belief or to intentionally say or do anything that would belittle or degrade another? I have my personal beliefs on the subject, which are motivated by my understanding of scriptures that discuss this topic, but I am still in....awe (not sure if that is the right word), at the abject insensitivity and brazen lack of moral character some people will choose to exhibit.

It hasn't really bothered me in the past, it doesn't really bother me now--there will always be varied levels of moral character in society. Perhaps I am more aware of it now because I just came back from a pageant (Hill Cumorah Pageant) in upstate New York over the weekend (a wonderful experience), and witnessed, once again, some people exhibiting this type of moral emptiness, standing on the sides of the road spewing forth unbelievably lewd, vulgar, and demeaning comments at the some 10,000 visitors who came to enjoy a spiritual experience. I have my belief at what motivates this type of behavior, but it is still simply amazing to me to watch it play out in society.

Come on people, there is greater potential inside of those hearts out there. It is time to "rise from the dust" and be "men and women of God."

The person is living in a fantasy land of denial and you, with little news stories of truth, are never going to kick him/her out of his/her little mental womb garden of LDS chirping birds, sunshine, and pretty flowers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 01:04PM by derrida.

"So, why is it then, that people feel the need to attack another's belief or to intentionally say or do anything that would belittle or degrade another?"

So how is you posting a link to a story any different than the I'm a Mormon ads or the Church sending out 50K missionaries? So if the story you sent had some things LDS don't like hear it can't be shared?

I would ask - exactly how is posting a NEWS article vitriolic, obscene and an attack on your beliefs? Are you so sensitive and your beliefs so fragile that they can't withstand a NEWS article that is critical of your church? Perhaps you should refrain from watching television, reading newspapers and listening to the radio as these could be very damaging to a sensitive person such as yourself.

CA girl had a really good post that might help you in forming a reply - http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,565409



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 01:12PM by janebond462.

So does this person ever post about their beliefs?

Why does this person think they have a say about what other people post?

Or you could reply something like this, if you're up for a fight: Believing is not a choice, it's a mental defect. You cannot simply choose to believe something, e.g. that the grass is blue. Well, obviously you can, but don't expect people to take you seriously.

Or you could ask if every criticism constitutes an attack on this person's faith and if not, which criticisms would be acceptable (cult members can't answer that one).

So many possibilities.

People in these belief systems are taught to have a persecution complex any time someone disagrees with them.

According to my last former TBM friend, TSCC forcing members to vote against gay marriage is apparently just free expression, but my daring to speak out against it is "hate propaganda".

So, rather than talk to YOU, they need to broadcast your name and the situation on their page?

First of all, you just posted LINKS, from what I understand. No big deal. When I see a link, I assume the the article is of interest to the person posting it. I tend to assume they approve of the article, but not always. And I choose whether or not to read them based on MY interest in the article. I do NOT expect my friends to share my religious or political beliefs.

But importantly, this person's attack on you was personal.

Facebook slams are usually more passive agressive . . . not actually NAMING the person they are pissed at. Bad form, even for Facebook!

My suggestion, either just delete them from facebook, or say something short, like "Hey, if you don't like my links, don't read them, and in the future, if you have issue with me . . . talk to ME instead of broadcasting my history and your grievances to everybody you know."

Don't engage in defending, explaining, or apologizing for upsetting her (I'm just assuming it's a woman, based on the emotionality of the argument). She's the one who's out of line, here.


BTW, I think there is a way to have different lists of people who can have access to your postings. I know exmos that screen who can read what so they don't start World War III with their family and LDS friends.

Is it "morally civil" to knock on the door of complete strangers' homes to (borrow HIS wording) make some very unkind and negative attacks against the very thing which has brought so much hope, love, joy and happiness into their lives; something which they hold to be priceless and dear to them: their religion, their faith, their membership in their church?

Is it "morally civil" to tell others how wrong the beliefs are that THEY were raised with, that their beliefs are lies, and that your church is the ONE true church? That's TSCC's missionary program, and it's coordinated, organized, and intentional. Does one person's post(s) on Facebook come close to THAT lack of civility by TSCC?

Yeah, THAT is not hypocritical at all!

Fuck your friend and fuck your friend's church.

Greedy, racist, sexist, homophobic, jingoistic church gets to tell everyone else their beliefs are an "abomination before god" and then cowers in the corner and cries persecution when people stand up to them?

No.

I'd tell your friend that the minute the church not only shuts up about the rest of the world but apologizes for the evil its spewed, you'll be quiet too.

Until then, fuck them.

...and the ass they rode in on!!!

And one more thing:
"Are you so sensitive and your beliefs so fragile that they can't withstand a NEWS article that is critical of your church?"

Apparently, those Mormons really are. Firm foundation, my ass!

+1

Did you make a personal comment about the article? When I posted a news story concerning the mass resignation, I certainly did. If you posted no personal commentary, then you offended nobody. It's simply the genetic/psycho-social Mormon persecution complex rearing it's dysfunctional, delusional head.

When the press reports on catholic clergy pedophiles, do we see their members crying "bigotry!" and "Persecution!!"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 02:01PM by gnosticguru.

Your response should be "I post what I want on my Facebook page. You are welcome to decide whether to read or ignore what I post, but you have no authority to dicate what I will post. I am not responsible for handling or coddling the fragility of others' faiths, and expect no one to make such a similar action for me"

I'd hit the delete button so fast his internet connection would fry.

"Dear Friend,

Suppose there was a news story about a movie star who had loud, booze-and-drug-fueled parties at his house nightly and then bullied his neighbors against filing complaints with the local police. If I posted a link to this story on Facebook, would you accuse me of a 'lack of civility and good will' anyone who is a fan of this movie star's films?

Suppose there was a news story about an aquatic wildlife conservation charity which laundered millions of dollars in donations and lined the pockets of its board of directors. If I posted a link to this story on Facebook, would you accuse me of 'spewing forth all the bigoted vitriol' against people who love dolphins?

The only reason you take such offense to my posts is because you perceive it as a personal attack against you. It has nothing to do with you, or your beliefs. It has nothing to do with the belief system of the mormon church. It has to do with the fact that a huge organization (which I have personal ties to) has demonstrably questionable financial and ethical practices.

I find it appalling that you expect me, or anyone who doesn't share your beliefs, to filter our own opinions for your sake. Before posting about your recent experience in New York, did you stop to think about how your claims of a 'spiritual experience' might offend others who do not share your faith? Did it even occur to you how offensive it is for you to claim your church is in some way responsible for you being a moral person, while insinuating that those who are not mormon are on a different 'level of moral character'? Or are you exempt from this because of your obvious moral superiority over everyone who disagrees with you, which you did not neglect to point out? Does being a mormon automatically make you incapable of 'abject insensitivity and brazen lack of moral character'?

The mormon persecution complex never ceases to astound me. It isn't all about you. Get over yourself.

Love,

Mnemonic"

they all sound the same...

I would flood the thread with every single time you've been attacked by Mormons for believing differently and then tell him to go suck a d.

I vote you combine RJ response and judyblue's response to reply to your "friend" :-)

Your "friend" sounds like my cousin when I posted a link that had the secret, I mean sacred, endowment ceremony word for word on my page.

Tell them vitriol is launching vicious attacks against a minority in order to deprive that minority of civil rights (Prop 8), not the posting of a factual news story, and if you'd had any intention of posting something offensive to Mormons, you'd be posting facts about Joseph Smith and church history that would keep them up at night.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 03:00PM by inmoland.

Dear Friend,
I did not attack your beliefs. I posted a link to an article and you disagreed with that article. Since we obviously do not agree, let me suggest that you not open any links involving the church since I will continue to post things of interest to me on my wall. Again I was not attacking you. People should be able to hold different opinions without taking things so personally.

TBM's confuse being presented with facts, challenges or debate as persecution. Questioning their "official story" is not the same as prejudice, and bigotry.

They get defensive, cry persecution, and resort to passive-aggressive shaming. Personally, I would call someone out for that alone, because if they have a problem with something I have said, they need to say it directly to me.

Maybe he should consider an actual rebuttal based on real facts, and math instead of defensive judgment, and shaming. People behave like that when they've got nothing of worth to add to a discussion or if they want to stop thinking. He's engaging in name-calling, even if it comes from self-righteous indignation.

What degree of cog-dis does it take to use the loaded language (and incredibly rude when passive-aggressive): "bigoted vitriol", “obscenely offensive", "abject attacks”, "abject insensitivity", “brazen lack of moral character”, “moral emptiness”, and THEN say, "it doesn't really bother me"?

It's really hypocritical to accuse others of insensitivity, when there is only judgment on the moral character of others instead of listening to what they are saying, and asking why? There is a reason behind what they do. They are not robots of satan, since morgbots think everyone obeys without questioning like they do. This will be a novel concept to a morgbot, and one they may not understand, since they believe everyone who does not believe as they do is making the wrong choices in life.

If any other corporation or church were scrutinized like this, would he have a problem with that? Some people happen to think questioning the finances of businesses or so-called churches IS moral. Charities are rated all the time by how much of their money goes to help people, and how much goes to administration.

These articles are not an attack on gawd. If this is the lard's very own church, then why can it not withstand scrutiny, and questioning? The attack, and defense is actually in your FB friend's head - his mind - where the entire belief-fairytale, "spiritual experience" is taking place. None of it is real. To defend gawd he has to shut out information, and shut his mind down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 03:14PM by atheist&happy:-).

Don't let it go unchecked. Simply ask them to correct any facts that misrepresent what they believe or what the church believes. That is the nature of rational discussion. Allow yourself to be the elegant one in this discussion.

We all know there will be no rational, reasoned response. At best, there will be an appeal to emotions and feelings.

You will look like the reasonable one in this conversation.

If the response is similar to what you received above, then tell them to go fuck themselves.

I would tell him --

The two articles that I linked to do not attack your faith. They question the business and civic dealings of the LDS church. If you feel that those activities are above questioning, you may be in for a rude awakening one day. The truth can withstand scrutiny.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2012 04:51PM by summer.

I used to share those sentiments. Then the DNA tests came back. Now it's game on.

I like when the nut says it's time to be "men and women of God."
Isn't that a slam on atheism?

That's what the 'delete friend' and 'ignore' buttons are for
They save you hours of stress!
and like somebody else said, "Fuck your friend and the horse he rode in on!"
With 'friends' like that, who needs enemies?

Man, Mormons sure do love using the words "spewing" and "vitriol."