This past Sunday my tbm wife got a call from the ward secretary saying that the bishop would like to meet with me. That's when she realized that I had sent in my resignation letter. I told her about a month ago that I would be doing so at the 'mass resignation event'. I guess she didn't take me seriously. I didn't think she would. She was out of town during that event and just got back a few days ago. She didn't ask and I didn't tell. But now the cat is out of the bag. She cried a bit but then we had a wonderful talk. I pretty much got her to admit that she only goes to church because it's the socially acceptable thing to do. That's probably never going to change but at least I know that she has her doubts and is able to think for herself. I thought it was a success. Anyways... yesterday I got a letter from the church saying that in order to process my resignation it had to go through local priesthood authority blah blah blah. So tonight I have a meeting with the bishop to make it official. I know that I don't have to go but I think it will be good for me to get some things off my chest even if they fall on deaf ears. My mind is made up and no amount of pressure from the bishop will change my mind. If you were in my shoes is there anything you would say to the bishop tonight? I feel like this is an opportunity for me to really express myself to some "authority" in the church and while I already know what I would like to say I would love some input from the people on this board so I don't miss out on any good opportunities on what to say. I appreciate your input. Thanks!

First off, point out to the bishop that according to American law, you are ALREADY out of the church, and that you are meeting with him only as a courtesy, not as a requirement. You are not bound any more by the same rules by which he is bound.

Assure him that your reasons for resigning are substantial, not personal, and that there is nothing he can do or say that will make you reconsider.

And then leave.

You might also point out that it was a LIE for them to say that in order to process your resignation it had to go through local priesthood authority. They know that you are legally already out. They arranged the meeting under false pretenses.

Congratulations! I'm glad to hear that your wife is relatively supportive of your decision. A lot of people have major problems when one spouse leaves and the other stays.

Others who have actually met with the bishop might have more advice (I'm still waiting for my resignation to be finalized, but no longer live in the area where I was active so it's not as relevant), but one thing to keep in mind: If your bishop threatens you with excommunication, be sure to let him know that your resignation was effective as soon as your letter was sent in and meeting with him now is just a formality.

Good luck!

Not even a formality, he's already out. It's a courtesy

Still waiting to hear it got finalized :)

Take the article linked to in the thread "How the Mormons Make Money"...your Bishop will have his eyes well and truly opened.

My number one rule when talking church issues with TBMs is NO bearing of testimony. It doesn't tell me what is actually true, only that you are convinced.

Only meet with this man if you want to. You were out the moment TSCC received your resignation letter. He only has the power you give him.

IMO, if you decide to meet with him, the only thing you want to know is:

Will you support my marriage and family by encouraging my wife (and children, if applicable) to respect and love me despite our difference of opinion on religion? OR will you undermine my marriage by encouraging my wife and children to think of me as a "less than, unworthy husband and father" thereby encouraging divorce and/or estrangement? Will you insist that I be consulted regarding decisions related to my children and their church activities? OR will you (and others) go around me? Will you allow my family to be emotionally manipulated into thinking that it is their duty to 'return me to the fold'?

Will you respect my decision? OR will you make me a 'reactivation project'? Will you encourage ward members to treat me with respect? OR will you encourage them to avoid me as a 'minion of satan'?

Will you allow speculation and gossip among ward members about my 'worthiness'? OR will you tell ward members that my decision is mine alone and they are not to infer any desire to sin, or assume that I am lazy and didn't want to the live the standards anymore?

+1. Excellent advice.

+2

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 01:28PM by nefight.

+3

+4
One more...

Do you believe in your 11th Article of Faith and will you encourage members to practice it?

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng


p.s. Don't call him "Bishop." He does not have any authority over you. If his name is "Dave," call him "Dave."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 03:28PM by Surrender Dorothy.

Before the meeting, I'd say to him and/or the exec secretary, "Well, I'm already "out," so I'm not obligated to meet with you. However, I'm willing to discuss it, but not at the bishop's office. How about meeting at [a neutral place both agree to]?"

That way you can have a conversation without the office power scenario.

If they're willing to oblige, then go for it. If not, then no. Mormons think their message is really important, but usually its importance lessens when they're inconvenienced.

Certainly find a "neutral" location for the meeting, a place where he should not feel that he has any authority over you and where you can sit back in comfort, knowing you're not answerable to him.

Remember that his name is Joe or Fred or something, but not bishop. I was going to suggest meeting in a coffee shop, but that may be inappropriate; go anywhere that mormons could relax for a chat, other than on their own property.

Talking to the bishop was catharthic for me as well. I was a little nervous, but it was a good thing. Being the Elder's Quorum President at the time I kind of felt like I needed to meet with him anyway (in may case I had 3 steps - 1: An I don't believe email, 2: An I don't believe meetings, 3: A 5 minute resignation meeting a few months later.)

In the end all he could say was: "you've intellecutalized this - you have to think with your heart, not your head."

I thought he summed it up pretty darn well!

Mormon scripture itself says you are supposed to study it out and revelation comes when your mind and heart agree!

Personally I avoided getting into details and just talked about why I didn't accept that the Holy Ghost was anything other than an emotion - I didn't want to get into a long debate about the details, but you could.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 01:29PM by bc.

Where is that scripture bc?

D&C 9:

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

--------------
And this is exactly what I did to determine the church is not true. Everytime I tried to find a way to keep believing it was true I got a stupor of thought...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 11:39AM by bc.

Thanks! I've been in an ongoing debate with my brother on this exact topic.

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> D&C 9:
>
> 7 Behold, you have not understood; you have
> supposed that I would give it unto you, when you
> took no thought save it was to ask me.
>
> 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must
> study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if
> it be right, and if it is right I will cause that
> your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you
> shall feel that it is right.
>
> 9 But if it be not right you shall have no such
> feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought
> that shall cause you to forget the thing which is
> wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is
> sacred save it be given you from me.
>
> --------------
> And this is exactly what I did to determine the
> church is not true. Everytime I tried to find a
> way to keep believing it was true I got a stupor
> of thought...

Amen

That's the "big gun" for me. Sure it will fall of deaf ears but you can always hope that a seed will be planted.

Best of Luck

Sending men on missions and marrying their wives while away bothers me just as much.

I totally agree. I think most mormons will admit that god wouldn't command that if they are really pressed on the issue. This is a fun issue to press them on. Either God is sick or Joseph was a _____ (fill in the blank). If you can get a mormon to pick sides (polyadry from god or joseph?) then the fun really begins. The follow-up questions are limitless.

I believe joseph meets all of the criteria of a sexual preditor and pediphile according to modern, legal interpretations of those terms.

It blows my mind how so much suffering came about because of that man's libido. And, the suffering continues. Oh, how I have wished many times the doctor would have gone through with the castration the night Nancy Johnson's brother's draged him outside for molesting their little sister. If I could go back in time I would castrate him without a second thought.

Don't go at all. They've acknowledged your resignation letter which means in the eyes of the law, you are no longer a member. You're not required to do anything else except move on with your life.

I would't waste my time venting myself on them, either. I've learned you can't argue, compromise, or reason with narcissists.

Cancel the meeting.
You already resigned, don't bring the bishop back into your marriage.

It looks like you may be able to settle things privately with your wife, so why open the door to more church interference.
The more people are involved, the harder it is to come to a satisfactory conclusion in any matter.

Besides, you don't owe anyone any explanations. Religious beliefs are a private matter.

Don't meet with him. You and he are not going to be able to come to any kind of common ground. He will insult you like mine did ("I know how hard it is to live the gospel"), attempt to manipulate you via your kids, if you have them ("Leaving the church can effect your family for generations.") and lie to your face ("I believe in science").

He will piss you off with a smile on his face, and you will be forever labeled as the angry apostate. You will become a sunday school lesson.

Forget him and take your wife out for a nice dinner.

If you are going, which I would in my circumstance because i went to primary with my bish and simply as a courtesy, and because I still have other TBM family members in the ward. Think of the stereotypes that you had as a TBM about apostates, address those stereotypes, explaining how they're untrue and tell him how truly heart broken and disappointed you were and are to learn of the untruths and immorality practices especially by early church leaders and the perpetuated lies and deceit that exists until today. Tell him you have not apostatized, you have learned and embraced the truth. I would say that I cannot in good conscience continue as a member and be affiliated with such deceit.

As others have said above, you may want to consider requesting this meeting at your home, or perhaps a neutral location. I think being in his office on his pissing ground might make him feel more empowered.

Great post, I expect that soon when I submit my letter, to be invited to a similar meeting.

Since when does that bishop have any courtesy for YOU ?
Tell him to stuff it !

The entire foundation for your Mormon church, and of all its beliefs, is based on the sensual games of a few men who wanted to have sex with as many women as possible -- young or old -- married or single!

And, amazingly, they used God's Own Name as an excuse to become some of history's most massive lechers.

The evidence is in black and white inside the church's own genealogical records. If you want an idea of what that world was really like, just listen to the Warren Jeffs "Temple" tapes!

Ultimately, it is all about sex!

Like it or not, the Mormon church has an xxx-rated, highly-horny history!

***UPDATE***

Just got back. Pretty uneventful meeting. He started off with "I'm not going to try to change your mind. From what I understand, you know what you're talking about and nothing I can say will change your mind." (As if to say "I don't get into these things with people that actually know what they're talking about.) He asked if I would continue to be respectful of my wife's decision to attend church. I said that I always had been and wasn't planning on changing that. I told him I expect the same respect for my beliefs and my decision to not attend. He did ask what my concerns were. I told him it all started with the Book of Abraham. Explained how we have the manuscripts that JS used to translate from and how they don't match up to what we now know they say. He looked at me like he had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. I'm really wondering now if he had never heard about that or was just trying to make me feel like I don't know what I'm talking about. I explained that my doubts escalated from there and after several years of studying church history I knew that it wasn't what I had thought it was. His response... "ok". Told me that he thinks my wife is great and hopes that all is well with us. That was it. It was probably all of about 5 minutes. But I do feel good about having possibly planted a seed with the BoA info. Ya never know. Thanks for all of your advice and input. I would agree with those that said this type of meeting should be arranged at a neutral location. I just wanted this to be over with so I didn't cancel in order to do that but I did like the advice and would recommend it to anybody else in a similar situation. Thanks again for all your support!

I'm betting the BoA info was new to him. I hope he goes home and googles it. He'll never be right in the spiritual sense again.

The BoA was my Aha moment. It went downhill from there. I didn't just leave because of that, I couldn't stop reading. I was a bit shell shocked for a while. I can't imagine being a bish. and being in that state of mind.

Glad to hear it went well! And hopefully the bishop learned something too! :)

chupaloche4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He started off with "I'm not going to try to change
> your mind. From what I understand, you know what
> you're talking about and nothing I can say will
> change your mind."

That's pretty much word-for-word what my Bishop said to me. He also asked me what was bothering me, and I also mentioned the BoA, at which point, he didn't seem to want to know anymore and just said he'd get it done. This was all via e-mail, but the words are pretty much the same.

I wonder what your Bishop's response would hvae been had you said "Whilst I respect my wife's choice to attend Church I feel it my duty as a loving Husband to ensure she has all the facts with which to make a considered decision about her future involvement with the Church."