I've been a regular lurker/occasional poster here for a while now.

I had a talk with my husband yesterday and we're both unhappy in our marriage to say the least, but we're both hanging on to our marriage I think mainly because we are both children of divorce and always said we would break the cycle.

I am 100% financially dependent on him right now. I've been a stay at home mom for most of our decade+ of marriage. He's dependent on me to continue taking care of the kids because he has such an erratic schedule and leaves on business periodically, but for long periods at a time. It's very unpredictable.

We don't fight about money, sex, or household responsibilities - it's purely religion. He's still a faithful member and is so stubborn will likely never leave the church. Ultimately I'm okay if he doesn't leave the church, it's how he treats me and puts me down because of my DESIRE to "sin". (He flipped out that I even wanted to go see Magic Mike with my girlfriends or read 50 Shades of Gray, I never did either one!)

We have several young children 10 and under.

If I go back to school, I can finish in about 3-4 years. Should I just wait it out and finish my degree, should I leave now, should I wait until the kids are grown? Since we are compatible in other areas can this work out?

I'm afraid if I leave now, he might turn the kids on me or at least have so much more alone time with them to brainwash them. My advantage with staying is that I can have a greater influence over my children. If we were to divorce, I would seek joint custody because that is fair - but he would be alone with them half of the time. From a religious standpoint that is scary to me.

Someone recently asked how to know if your marriage is over and I answered yes too a few things - I'm never in a rush to see him, I'm not happy and excited when he comes home from work, and I secretly think life would be better if he were to die in a car accident or have a heart attack. We are in our 30s, so it's not likely that I would become a widow anytime soon. I know that sounds horrible, but it's the sad truth. I have my life mapped out if he were to die. I know I sound like a horrible wife right now, but I put on the happy face as much as possible, always have a hot cooked meal ready for him, I am pretty, keep a clean house, smart, active, and we have good sex together. He is just as unhappy with me (but shows his hatred more than I do).

One more thing, we bicker a LOT! He's not very smart and it drives me nuts because he frequently spouts off incorrect information. I correct him and he thinks I'm the devil with his stare. He has told me he doesn't like to be corrected, so I have backed off, but I still have to tell the kids privately the truth because I don't want them to learn incorrect things from him.

Wow... what a tough situation to be in. I think you have some valid concerns about leaving. I love my husband very much and have three degrees, but I am also financially dependent on him. Sometimes I worry about what I would do if we ever split up, since I haven't worked in years, either. Luckily, we do have a happy marriage, at least right now.

I think if I were in your situation, I would give some serious thought to the quality of my life. Would you be better off with him or without him? Divorce is definitely survivable. When I met my husband, he was fresh from a nasty divorce and was living on $600 a month because he was supporting his ex wife and kids and paying the house note. It took a few years for him to recover financially, but he's doing fine now and in a much happier relationship. It did take a few years to recover, though, and those years were hard. And he did ultimately lose contact with his kids, mainly because his ex wife is very hateful and used the church against him. He made the mistake of letting his ex wife have sole custody of their kids, though even if he hadn't done that, she would have turned them against him. Because of his job in the military, it wasn't feasible for him to share custody. You would be at an advantage, since your husband travels a lot and, let's face it, you're the mom. But your concerns about your husband turning the kids against you could be valid.

I'm not saying that what happened to my husband would happen to you, though. And you are still quite young, but life is pretty short. If you are fantasizing about your husband's death, I'd say that's a pretty good bet that you're not in a happy place. Can you get some counseling? Maybe engage in some activities that make you happy? That might help with your dark fantasies about your husband's demise.

I think at the very least, you should get some training or education to help you develop marketable skills. I think that would help you feel more confident, and put you in contact with other people who might eventually be able to hook you up with work. Also, I wouldn't necessarily opt to get a degree. Like I said, I have three degrees that my husband and I are paying for, but I don't work outside the home. Sometimes degrees don't pay off. You might be better off looking for work you can learn on the job, then going for your degree when you're more financially secure and have a better idea of what kind of work you're best qualified for and most want to do. If you do opt for school, try not to fund it with loans.

I am not a child of divorce, so I don't know how that feels. I am a second wife and have seen the after effects of divorce. As for how your kids would handle it, I couldn't say. It would be hard on them, but I would think having parents who bicker all the time would be hard, too. And getting used to potential stepparents would also be hard. But I think you also have the right to be happy.

In any case, from what you've written, I think you probably will end up divorcing at some point. It may take several years and those years could end up being truly miserable. As for which brand of misery you prefer, economic or romantic, that's up to you.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 10:23AM by knotheadusc.

"If I go back to school, I can finish in about 3-4 years."

Go back to school.

Have you tried non-religious marriage conseling? I'd recommed it.

On his side, he needs to see that it is unhealthy for him to control you, and for him to put religion above his relationship with you, his family, and his children. Read 50 Shades of Grey and go see Magic Mike. These are not sins.

Since we don't have his side here, we cannot make recommendations as to what changes you need to make.

I had visualized my ex- as being dead, and it would have been much better if she'd died. But she didn't (so much for answering prayers...), and we divorced with young children. I'm sorry now that I put my kids through that.

It's hard on kids to be children of divorce, but is it better for them to live with 2 unhappy, constantly bickering parents?
Also, YOU DESERVE TO BE HAPPY!

are going to see it--and when they talked about it on kutv2 news (in Utah), the women were so obviously mormon and they had gone to see it and one took her husband.

I'd get my education. For one thing, it will give YOU SOMETHING that is all your own in terms of getting out of the house and pursuing your goal, meeting new people.

I hate to put it this way, but this is what my therapist told me in dealing with some people in my life. There is such a thing as emotional intelligence and trying to get some people to understand emotional issues can be difficult. He told me to learn to understand that you are trying to teach someone who is mentally disabled calculus. They just DON'T GET IT. I TRY to remember that. It doesn't always work for me to remember--but I can at least sit back and think about it and understand why they did what they did.

"We don't fight about money, sex, or household responsibilities - it's purely religion."

It's sad that your marriage is suffering because of an illusion-- invisible spirits, fictional people, irrational rules... your husband is suffering from delusions and he takes it out on you. If he could get a grip on reality it sounds as though you would have a reasonably good marriage. You say that you're okay if he doesn't leave the church, but his beliefs are the root of your problem. If there's any way you can get his mind to separate fact from fiction then you have a chance. He may not be emotionally strong enough to accomplish a new way of thinking.

Stay and get your education. Stop bickering. It takes two so just don't participate. Do you want to be happy or right? It will be much easier for you to stay and finish school rather than leave and work a lowering paying job while trying to finish.

I'm a child of divorce like you. Don't do it to your kids right now. Pick a career that will give you the most bang for your buck (time), get started, quit bickering, and get it done. You'll be in a much better place in 2-3 years than if you left now.

You might try non-LDS marriage counseling with your husband.

In the meantime, get your education. Start out with a course or two. Everyone needs foundational courses such as English 101, American history, Biology, Psychology, etc. Your local community college might have drop-in child care for their students. Community colleges focus on career-oriented education that would get you into the workforce quickly if need be. Taking courses would get you out of the house, talking to other adults, and into the life of the mind. I think it would be a healthy thing for you, and it would likely pay off down the road. There is a distance learning option as well. Pay as you go so you don't take on debt.

Okay, you say you don't fight but you bicker....is there really a difference? I think you should get your degree....go back to school. Tell him you need this to feel like a more rounded person. If you can arrange childcare for any child who is not in school do so. Make a plan for yourself. Then if things do not improve you will have that degree to go forth and enjoy your new life.

I am glad you are able to speak to your kids when Dad says something incorrect. That is important. The problem with leaving at this time is he WOULD brainwash them. You must be free to give your side of things to the kids. As the kids mature I think they will see that he is just exerting power over you and it is hurting you deeply. They may be too young to get that right now.

A marriage is more than sex. A marriage is more than just being able to feed and clothe everyone and pay bills. I heard on TV that marriage success stories have more to do with empathy and being able to put yourself in the place of your spouse and be compassionate. I truly believe that is true. My long marriage ended in divorce and I KNOW it was because he had no ability to empathize or be compassionate about any part of my daily life. It is no way to live.

It's hard to give good advice on this subject with so little information.

If you do decide to stay I think it's imperative that you somehow establish that he respect your beliefs are "diferent but equal".

The approach I've taken with my wife is that she doesn't need to belief the same thing I do but she needs to respect my right to believe what I do. It's fine that she thinks she's right and I'm wrong - it's also fine that I think I'm right and she's wrong.

However with my wife, it's not fine for her to try to hold some kind of moral superiority because she believes differently than I do. Any time she tries to pull that I explain that if she wants to do that then we need to look at all the facts and information together. We don't have to walk down that path very far before her cog dis starts kicking in and she backs off quickly. Being the smarter of the two of you, it seems you have an advantage in this.

Over time we've essentially come up with a "truce" that isn't perfect (I was just complaining on here last night) but at least reduces the friction.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

I do have to say that if I had not been able to get to the point where my wife at least acts like we are on level playing ground with our beliefs that I would probably have left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 11:59AM by bc.

I've heard the word "boundary" defined as "who does what when and where." I think people, especially women, have a hard time setting boundaries with their husbands. You said, "it's because of how he treats you and puts you down because of your desire to 'sin'." Of course, mormons look at sin entirely different than most normal folks in society. You need a non-mormon fascilitator to work with him, in setting those boundaries, because in his deluded mind - his "puts down" are perfectly okay to do because you are sinning. You are fighting years of indoctrination. You cannot do it alone. The therapist could also help him understand why you do not believe anymore (i.e. "Husband, your wife does not believe in the religion anymore because she found out that your profit married a 14-year old girl and had sex with her..."). How can reasonable person expect you to believe such rubbish.

"He has told me he doesn't like to be corrected"

Well then he can get the fuck over it because HE IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. I dont think the issue is that he isnt smart, its that he is ignorant. If he refuses to be corrected, then he is willingly choosing to be ignorant and oblivious to the truth. The truth is what it is, and there is no escaping truth and reality. Face it and accept it. This is often very difficult for mormons to do.

Marriage is not about conforming to one another's standards. It's about accepting each other for the positive and negative aspects of each other's personalities, and supporting each other through life. If he refuses to recognize all your positive aspects over a few negative ones, then you either need to work it out through cooperation and counceling or you need to run away as fast as you can.

He needs to recognize that you are HUMAN. You have faults, and you have perspectives that are different from his. Does he not see that RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM HERE? If his church is all loving and all that bullshit, then WHY DOESNT HE LOVE AND ACCEPT YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE? He cant go around changing or saving people! The reality is there is only one person he can be responsible for, and that is himself. You are going to change, he is going to change, and so are your children.

I am assuming you only have a high school diploma. I had to escape my family quickly, so I got an associates degree for now. Yes, getting a bachelors degree head on is much better, but for people like you and me who need to escape and need some sort of ground, an associates degree is the way to go. It's definitley a step up from high school diploma. It will take you 2 years or less if you are going full time (this means 15 credits per semester generally.) You could even take summer classes to speed up the process or get those annoying pre-reqs out of the way. There are even colleges like the University of Phoenix that will get you a speedy degree if you would just rather go for a bachelors. After this, if you are able to get your foot in the door to a company and express that you would like to advance there, then they will usually pay for your schooling because you become an investment to them.

Sorry... I expressed a lot of emotions here because I can relate to you, and I tend to hold grudges. I hope I didnt make any rash assumptions... I am only going off the information you gave me. Anyway. I wish you the best, we are all here for you.

I wouldn't recommend going to a for-profit university like the University of Phoenix. Try a community college or a local state run school. Whatever you do, don't take out private loans to pay for your education. If you need financial aid, try going for grants, scholarships or government backed loans. And don't borrow more than you need to. Taking on student loans can be a serious mistake if you don't do it right.

a) What things brought you together? are they still present?

b) 'for the sake of the children': is there ANY WAY you can manage this, Transform it with SKILLS & DESIRE so they have good example & memories of their parents as Loving, Caring people? Giving up ChurchCo is like loosing a mouthfull of teeth without anesthetic.

c) Dr. Phil says: (para) Don't divorce as long as there's any emotional attachment.

good luck!

To answer your first question, sex brought us together. I had just moved away to BYU and met him. I was 18 and a virgin. He changed that in two months. We felt so much guilt over having sex (a lot of sex) that we knew we needed to get married (or so we thought). We were in love for all the wrong reasons. Fortunately in time we found that we were compatible in many ways, the church being the primary one. We were married three months after we became sexually active and we started the repentance process right away so we could get to the temple, since that was our primary goal in life.

We still have decent sex when he's being nice to me. When I was TBM we had sex 3-5 times a week, after I left the church it's about 1-2 times a week, sometimes less if he is being extra mean to me. He thinks he's being deprived that it's so much more infrequent, but I have very little physical desire for him because of the way he treats me. He is in top physical condition, he has a runners body - long and lean.

Wow... it's too bad there's so much guilt attached to sex in Mormonism. It sounds like if the church hadn't been involved, you two never would have just had your fun and not gotten married.

I think it's hard to have a relationship based just on sex. If my marriage was just based on sex, we'd probably be on the brink of divorce! I'm lucky if I get it once a month!

Do you have anything else in common with your husband? It sounds like you don't even have much of a friendship.

I've had to withold some information to keep myself anonymous.

I currently have about 24 college credits, and I am enrolled for 2 classes this fall semester at the local community college. I plan on seeking a bachelors degree in teaching.

Between child support and a teacher's salary I could get by until I move up in seniority on the pay scale. A big problem I have is that I have no family to help me at all.

In a best case scenario, how much would a divorce cost? Can I legally start filtering money out now? I handle all the finances and could easily filter out $100 a month without him knowing. We move every few years for my husband's job, so I'm not even sure if I would file where I am or in a different State when the time comes.

We did marriage counseling last year, but the counselor didn't give us much hope that our marriage would succeed if my husband didn't compromise on some things. He has made a few compromises, but nothing substantial.

He suggested that we do more counseling, but he hasn't made any effort to start the ball rolling.

What kind of teaching do you plan to do? If you are considering getting a divorce, I would try to focus on an area where there's a specific need for teachers. I have friends who are teachers who went to a school known for producing teachers and some of them have had trouble with layoffs. Hopefully, the economy will improve and that situation will change, but you should prepare for that reality anyway.

As for the counseling, maybe the two of you could see someone else? Or maybe you could get counseling on your own. A good counselor can help you come up with coping strategies and that might make it easier to stall while you earn your credentials.

I agree with Glo that it probably isn't productive to argue or bicker with your husband. It might be better to direct your energy toward empowering yourself.

I don't know how much divorces cost. My husband and his ex did theirs with a do-it-yourself kit, which I would not recommend. It was cheap, though. I would figure on at least a few thousand dollars for some baseline legal help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 01:14PM by knotheadusc.

In the part of the country I live in, teachers are in demand. I have several teacher friends on the west coast that are having trouble with layoffs, but that's not really a problem where I live. I want to get my degree in Secondary Education - Social Studies so I could also find work at a museum or historical society.

I would eventually like to earn my Masters in either Special Ed or Elementary Ed to expand my job opportunities.

That sounds like a good plan. You're smart to keep your options as diverse as possible.

Even where teachers are in demand, it can be hard to get a job. Plus, if you dont get hired for September, you've pretty much missed the boat for a full year in terms of employment (although a few teachers always get hired late and a few are hired at midyear in a good-sized district.) New teachers often get the really crummy jobs, although not always.

Teaching is a tough career, but I am *very* grateful for my pension and wonderful benefits. I'll be glad to get out when the time comes, however.

Start substitute teaching as soon as all of your kids are in school. You will be bringing in some income, learning the ropes, and making some good connections and references.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 02:49PM by summer.

If I had it to do over again I would be a History teacher. Love history. And as for that masters....do special ed. They are always in demand.

I teach and so please do find out a state that has no layoffs. Some lay off each June. Some get rehired and some don't. Also try to get a job in a private school....not public. You will be happier I feel sure. Teaching is not as it used to be. Going up the pay scale is non existent in some places....people are happy just to have a job....they ended the raises in some states to balance the budget.

Divorce can be costly. You do not even want to know how much mine costs....but I was a fighter and do not regret it. Some states have what is called community property and some do not. Mine did. It is all about dividing things half and half.If divorce is still in your mind this time next yr. get the IRS papers and keep them. It tells a lot. Your lawyer needs that for income, etc. My ex had done some funny business with a kid's college saving fund and we found it there. (he stole her money) The judge saw things my way thank goodness. So be careful and be strong. If you can work it out that is always best, but life without a person who can't provide what you need and is not comforting and compassionate is wonderful too. I am living proof.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 06:19PM by honestone.

Stay and get your degree.
It may put more balance of power into the relationship.

Also, you will be in a much better position to make decisions once you have your degeree,and your kids will be older.

Until then, don't waste your energy bickering with dh or correcting him.

A lot can change in four years.

I concur with what others have said here--get your degree and then assess your situation. I myself am biding my time until my youngest is out of high school. She needs her father right now.

Yeah, yeah, I've heard all the argument about not staying in a less than desirable marriage for the sake of the kids--each situation is different. Only you can decide.

Your children, as they mature and become more educated, will understand what their father is ignorant about. My husband may never know how our kids snicker and grin over his assertions about UFOs, the influence of Satan, his continuing belief in the Book of Mormon, etc.

Sounds like me too. Though I am not financially dependent I choose to stay for my young child. The thought of her living out of a suitcase going back and forth is a kind of pain I can't do and I am not willing to share. I have made a few changes to make it more bearable. My husband is controlling. When he gets this way or want to argue, I don't respond. I think his mind doesn't work right. I chose to give up on trying to correct or fix that. If I want something I buy it. If I want to visit family I visit. I have slowly taken away some prior control he had over me. I quit hoping for an intimate emotional relationship and I remind myself from time to time that he is not capable of that kind of thing. I focus on my career and daughter. I am kind and if he isn't I walk away and chalk it up to his atrophied mind. It is all a matter of which pain I want to choose. So this is the one I choose. I am older though. 49. You are young and can start over with someone new. There is no right pain to choose. Our physical private life is good which seems like an odd combination. I just don't like constant combat and what appears to be his lack of approval and acceptance of me as a person.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 03:05PM by suckafoo.

I can relate suckafoo. Knowing how he was incapable of giving me what I needed I just went out and did it myself.... satisfying my needs without being unfaithful and lived my life. He could not make me unhappy. I wouldn't let him. I lived for my daughters and other family and my profession. If he wanted to be a miserable man fine, but I would not promote him and allow him to believe it was my fault. Why? Because it wasn't. He chose his miserable self to live with. There really is something wrong with their minds - and it continues today with the ex in the limited times we must converse. He is simply not mentally well. So glad to be free.

Suckafoo and Honestone--That's exactly where I'm at. I'm not unfaithful either--but I have my career, my own freinds, and my own interests and my children. My husband and I are parenting partners. I've nearly killed myself turning myself inside out and ignoring my own needs to please him, to "be worthy" of his love and attention.

I think shedding the Church was the last tie I had to making him happy or thinking I could.

Even if he left the church with me, I'm not certain it would save our marriage. Some things are better off left to their own death--but I refuse to die.

I agree with those who have suggested going to counseling. Maybe your husband can learn to treat you better. Does he know how unhappy you are with this treatment? Maybe he will be able to shape up if he knows that your marriage is on the line. If he won't go with you, going by yourself is also a good idea.

Get some training for a job. Not necessarily a college degree, but something that will qualify you for a job that is needed in your area within a reasonable time frame. That might even be something that would improve your marriage. If you are working and contributing some income to the household, it may change the way your husband feels and treats you.

I don't have any advice with respect to what you should do. I do have concerns about what your children are learning from the bickering and correcting. When one of you corrects the other, especially behind the other's back, that undermines any respect the kids might have for the corrected parent. Eventually, it might backlash the other way, and the kids may start to lose respect for the parent who is doing the correcting. It's very critical, judgemental, uncompassionate behavior that boils down to disrespect. If you can't respect each other, the relationship will fail sooner or later. By dragging it out and not taking action to make things better sooner, rather than later, you are teaching the kids to put up with disrespect, that their "knowledge" might not be good enough, that their partners don't have to respect them, or that they don't have to respect their partners. Think about everything that is wrong with your relationship and ask yourself, "Do I want any of my children to be in a relationship like this, that has this aspect to it?" Your perspective on what is best for the children might change considerably when you look at your relationship and what they are learning about relationships, from their point of view.

The divorce thread from last week had been closed by the time I saw it, so I'm glad to get another chance on this one.

I'm also in an unhappy marriage (around 20 year clocked up now) & found some of the advice on both threads very sensible but was also amazed at the number of posters that suggested that 'a working relationship' was sometimes as good as it gets, after a number of years of marriage. In my opinion *staying together because it is easier than splitting up*, is a depressing thought.

Like many others on here, we have children still at varying stages of education & they are the single, solitary reason why I am still here. I can't begin to imagine not seeing them daily & being relegated to some kind of Uncle figure who has them every other weekend & maybe one night per week. So with that being the case, I stay in a marriage that has withered on the vine, counting the years, months, days until our youngest reaches 18 which is still a good few years away but now well into single figures.

I have always provided for my family, always happily taken a share of houshold chores, moved away from my family & friends (largely losing contact) in order to move closer to my wifes family, have always tried to be a good Husband & Father but it's all in vain as everything appears to be too much trouble for my wife & that has been the way of our marriage since about 5 years in, although it has got progressively worse year on year. Don't get me wrong, there is not shouting & arguments infact very much the opposite, just two people sharing housespace & parenting duties.

We were both BIC & although I'm an RM & we married in the temple, she turned out to be lukewarm at church, always attending but never uber mormon. I'm the one that has left the church (but still have almost exclusively mormon friends) & basically still live exactly the same life, just minus religion ie no drinking, womanising ect! My wife still attends some weeks & misses others but deflects talks & callings.

Intimacy is rare, ditto shows of affection. She just seems to be happy to just drift along forever, believing all to be well while reading the latest murder mystery best seller. Meanwhile I fantasise about what furniture I will have in my house when we finally divorce, what I will do at weekends, what a real loving relationship might be like & what her response will be when I finally tell her that I am leaving.

*Obviously this is referring to the time after our youngest has reached adulthood, I accept my current situation until that time.

What are the things that brought you together?

Magnify them, Focus on them.

True love is neither physical, nor romantic. True love is an acceptance of all that is, has been, will be & will not be. The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.
~ Author Unknown

However it is debased or misinterpreted, love is a redemptive feature. To focus on one individual so that their desires become superior to yours is a very cleansing experience.~ Jeanette Winterson

Love & Truth are too valuable to decline; Hate & Lies are too ugly to accept.

Katherine Anne PORTER Love must be learned again and again; there is no end to it.
Hate needs no instruction, but waits only to be provoked.

The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."
Helen Keller (June 27, 1880 – June 1, 1968)

Apologies for any confusion. In my post above (inbetween
posts by dogzilla & guynoirprivateeye) I used the same 'Anon4This' user name, as the thread starter.

We are too different posters, (& I am a regular RfM poster who didn't want to use my regular user name) apologies for any confusion that I caused there.