It seems like people from the last big thread about this weren't quite getting the idea of gang stalking. Gang stalking is not love bombing. It is not assigning a friend to a convert or inactive member, nor is it calling someone's family. It is not snooping and it is not gossiping. Let's get our terms correct before we blame anybody for any of this.

My first introduction to gang stalking is this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKybGHkncqI&feature=related

It creeped me out the first time I saw it. I like stuff that creeps me out so I researched it a bit further. I found a ton of information about gang stalking written by a few people who are completely insane. Maybe they have been turned insane by all of the gang stalking happening from the crazy cults that have turned their sights on them, but it is much more likely that they are just imbalanced in the head.

I looked low and high and found nothing about gang stalking unless it was written by some of these people who weren't exactly credible. Nothing.

Then I went back and watched the video and decided that this lady was crazy as well.

I don't think Mormons gang stalk because I don't think it is real. But I might be completely wrong about this.

Gang stalking is defined by the techniques this lady lays out in this video. Based on that, has anyone actually ever experienced gang stalking from Mormons, or anyone else? Has anyone as a TBM participated in gang stalking?

I really would love to hear stories about it, especially if any of us as exmos participated in it.

http://whatreallyhappened.wikia.com/wiki/Gang_Stalking

This details some of the reasoning behind gang stalking and how it is carried out. Creepy stuff.

Gang stalking is intended to drive the victim insane and even to the point of suicide. When I've talked about my experience, people always ask, "Why would someone do that to you?" and I explain, "I pissed off some twisted people, and they wanted fuck with my mind to the point I'd attempt suicide again."
I had to got through all of it- Sensitization, street theater, etc...And when I thought it was all over, I went through a few more fucked up occurrences.

I can see why love bombing and gang stalking could get confused, but as one who experienced both, gang stalking is much more insidious.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 10:33AM by Itzpapalotl.

The Scientologists do absolutely practice this, especially on members who appear to be slipping away from their control. Like the Mormons, they love to have members who are well-connected in the government, the FBI, CIA, etc., and these people are treated VERY well with kid gloves. But they are also expected to perform/produce in certain ways, and if they do not, the pressure is increased.

I have heard first-hand examples from a rather large, very well-connected and reputable family (some of whom were employed in government in sensitive positions) where one sibling was recruited and was expected to a) recruit other family members, and/or b) glean classified information from them. The situation became so problematic for this family that it was necessary to report the situation to government authorities and stage an intervention and demand that the individual cut off all contact and communication with Scientology, or face being cut off from the family completely and possible prosecution by the Federal Government as a spy. During the individual's withdrawal phase, the Scientologists gang-stalked the entire family, even appearing at private homes, places of employment, banking institutions, and other venues in order to harass the family into "giving back" the individual.

Because the incident involved government employees, the situation was monitored and kept under control by the FBI, but I think you can see the exploitative nature of these organizations and the extents to which they will go as far as control and coercion if they place enough value in specific individuals.

While most of the stories reported here never reach this level of drama, I have experienced what might be called a low-level version of the same, and others who have posted here regularly enough to be considered reliable and sane have written about situations that are much more invasive than I experienced.

You wrote: "I don't think Mormons gang stalk because I don't think it is real. But I might be completely wrong about this."

That is your opinion. I think that while most of the time it does not reach the level of organized harassment experienced by the family in my example, it nevertheless does happen to some people, who for whatever reason are highly valued by the local Mormon organization, and to a degree which is consciously perceived as stalking, harassment, and more.

I also think it is bound to happen more often and more powerfully in places where Mormons are in the majority. Culturally, Mormons tend to "take matters into their own hands," and this attitude makes them feel entitled to engage in activities for which the ends justify the means. Gang-stalking is just such an activity.

I would also reiterate that just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Some trolls may try to pass off outrageous scenarios, but these can most often be easily disproven. Some people who post here have medical conditions that might tend to enhance feelings of paranoia or dread, but again, over time it is fairly easy for an experienced reader to observe the difference between their posts and those of individuals presenting a sober example. Many people post here under a cloak of anonymity because they fear difficult or dire personal consequences. Their anonymity does not mean their experiences are spurious.

"Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen."

I know. Clearly I presented this as an opinion post and opened the floor for other people to share their stories. I think most of your post was meant as a lecture, and that is cool because this is a public forum. However, if you have an actual experience I would be infinitely more interested in that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 11:25AM by snb.

you don't want to believe Mormons are capable of doing such a thing.

My experience says some Mormons are capable and DO do such things, but I wouldn't try to convince with my own examples because you clearly don't want to be convinced.

You are putting words into my mouth. I'm not sure why. Lecture me all you want, but I'm going to go focus on more interesting discussions.

You did:

>> Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 11:25AM by snb.

My first post I thought was a bit too harsh, so I rewrote it. Then there was a grammatical issue.

I know you might think I care about what you think, but I really don't. You clearly don't understand what I write and are inserting your own words so that you can feel justified in lecturing me. That makes you pretty irrelevant.

Rage away little man.

Yes, you were quite the @$$hole, even for you.

Well, I thought it was harsh. It was deserved because you clearly didn't read a word I wrote, but I thought it would detract from the message I wanted to send.

It was only up for maybe 30 seconds though, so I'm surprised you saw it.

But, alas, such is life.

Gang stalking IS real. I don't know how prevalent or common it is. As far as I know, I'm the only person who's dealt with it. Gang stalking is intended to drive the victim to the point where he or she does not know what is real, so some of these people sound off-kilter. Some may just be paranoid schizophrenics (I am not a schizophrenic) with persecution delusions.

And while I don't think love-bombing and gang-stalking are exactly the same thing, they're both definitely on the spectrum of harassment. I don't mean to minimize how people feel about love bombing, because I think it can be just as traumatizing. And in some people's experiences with TSCC (forestpal came to mind) I would consider TSCC stalk and abuse members.

So sorry if this is not making sense. I didn't sleep well last night and I have a massive headache today.

No worries. I've just never been able to dig up any real experiences. In the other thread everybody was describing gang stalking as love bombing and similar Mormonesque tactics. I wanted to redefine our terms and see if there were any legit experiences out there.

If you ever want to share it would be interesting to read. :)

But to actually sit down and explain the whole fucked up experience shakes me up every time I go through it. It also makes me paranoid, like how do I know you're not one of those people who was involved in the incident? (I know that sounds crazy, but that's how traumatizing it was. I am usually suspicious of people until I'm not.) It took me three hours to explain this to my BF. I didn't even tell members of my family until 4 years after it happened. Because strange and shady occurrences happened a year after the original incident, I wonder if it will ever happen again.

Lemme just say in a nutshell: I was followed, harassed, ripped to shreds emotionally and mentally, surveillanced, threatened with gang rape and to be buried alive, things were missing and stolen out of my room for 72 hours straight.
To this day, I'm still not sure how many people were involved, but I do know who the ring leaders were and some of the people involved. I was followed to the hospital and it didn't stop there.

Bringing this up is actually starting to make me wonder if I still need to work through this with a therapist. There are random things that trigger this paranoia and fear; Because it's getting to the time of year this incident occurred, I get a little off-balance.

Don't let skeptics get under your skin. I believe you, for whatever it's worth. There are a lot of real sickos out there.

(Story interfered with reading comprehension, obviously. Edited out.)

It's not much of a leap from narcissistic manipulators to gang stalking. Flying monkeys are the gang when the mastermind has enough leverage and information.

Obviously there is a scale upon which everyone's experiences will lie. My intent was to sympathize with Itzpapalotl, not debate anyone. I had a taste of the sickness involved. It is real.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 04:12PM by Susan I/S.

And to turn family against you is maliciously sadistic.

My family didn't turn against me; They wanted to get me help because I had been on a downward spiral for a couple of years and I was very emotionally and mentally ill.

When I share the bits and pieces of this experience, it becomes clear to some people why I am extremely neurotic at times.

"It's just not much of a leap from narcissistic manipulators to gang stalking."

I don't think your experience is necessarily untrue or unsubstantial. It sounds like a terrible thing to have happened, but I don't think it is the same thing as gang stalking, or even close to it.

gang stalking = covert surveillance and overt stalking by multiple people meant to drive somebody insane. They gather information and make enough of it obvious that it seems like the person is losing their mind.

...at least that is the definition I am trying to use.

I'm not sure your asshole ex-boyfriend was doing anything like that.

Your definition of gang stalking is different than others. You're trying to win the argument by creating a definition of gang stalking that almost could not exist.

If you can accept a different definition of gang stalking, then you'd be forced to agree mormons gang stalk.

Whoever gets to decide the definition of the term wins. If that's the objective.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 02:38PM by thingsithink.

Hey dude, nowhere did I say it was gang stalking.

I was commiserating with Itzpapalotl.

Reading comprehension man, I said it wouldn't be much of a leap. Don't read things that aren't there.

Ok, fair enough. My apologies. I was just trying to have a conversation and understand what you were saying.

No offense meant.

Do you think the video is accurate?

All I can say is how accurate it was for me.

But she sounded perfectly lucid and not hysterical, manic, or delusional. If these seemingly random coincidences started occurring after she realized she was being stalked, maybe they are related to her, maybe not. But the video is chilling for me to watch.

It is chilling for me too, but hard to believe at first. Sorry you went through that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 02:14PM by snb.

That's what makes this sort of terrorism so effective.

Some of the bullshit I have been through with sociopaths is very hard to believe, but it happened. Shit that has happened here on the board is sometimes hard to believe, but I'm willing to give posters the benefit of the doubt when it comes to traumatic experiences.

We live in a world where 1 in 25 people is a sociopath. Sociopaths are capable of anything.

Well, if you've been through this and you think she is sane, then that makes it even more scary.

I'm sorry you've been through anything like that. I couldn't imagine what it would be like.

will believe you). And this is also part of making you think you are going crazy. Gaslighting, etc. This is PRECISELY how they drive some people to suicide.

SNB, there are detailed stories of people who have experienced this available on the internet. You just have to look for them. As I've suggested, look among Scientology and Opus Dei. Some of the victims survived, but some did not.

Will do, definitely.

Like I said I did look for sources and I found depressingly few written by the same few individuals. I'll look again with that stuff in mind.

While browsing the General Handbook of Instructions, I read that bishops were not supposed to conduct surveillance of members to gather "evidence" for Church Courts. If bishops have to be told *not* to do this, can we infer that some bishops were?

A bishop I served with was also a significant landlord in our town. Because his properties were all managed through holding corporations, people may have no idea that their bishop was also their landlord. If a member's lease revealed that a couple were living common law, the bishop held a Church Court.

Some TBM fanatics believe it is their calling to monitor the Church for sin or those "dwindling in unbelief." My ex-wife sees her calling to combat sin and sinners everywhere.

When our son was in court mandated counseling for substance abuse, his mother set as her goal to supervise him every hour of the day or night ostensibly to "guard" him against drugs. My wife even gave up showers because our son could use the occasion to "escape."

His psychologists tried to tell my wife that her strict supervision wasn't helping. First, when our son was under constant surveillance, the psychologists had no way to judge his progress. Second, when our son escaped his mother's clutches, his binges were all the more extreme. And third, if our son was to progress through his drug addiction, it had to be through his choices.

Nevertheless, my wife soldiered on because she had read an article in the Ensign about a father who resigned his work, found his son in another city and stayed with him until he was 'cured' from drugs. And more importantly, she had "prayed about it."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 10:43AM by idleswell.

After that did you feel mandated forced drug treatment was either effective or valuable? Was your son forced and coerced to particpate and convert to a 12 step faith? I think that is where the worst gang stalking occurs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 11:30AM by deco.

1. Forced treatment was useless in my son's case. If it wasn't court mandated, he wouldn't have attended. And if he attends, you can't make him participate (honestly).

2. My son would never admit that he is addicted. When they had sharing circles (with other family present), my son would never start his speech with "Hi, I'm A. and I'm an addict." Until someone admits their problem, no resolution is possible. While his level of addiction was debatable, it was obvious that my son had a substance abuse problem. My son maintained that he had a legal problem. He couldn't see that drugs and (the people he associated with) were the source of his possession charges, trafficking charges, theft charges, assaults, threats, etc.

3. Group therapy was my son's connection to new drugs and new friends to obtain them through.

4. None of his treatment dealt with his tobacco problem. Tobacco probably cost my son more than any of the illegal drugs. Even in his teens his tobacco addiction was so severe that he couldn't sit through an hour class in school or manage employment. But since tobacco wasn't part of his "legal problem," none of the treatment programs dealt with it. (More confirmation to our son that his problems were with the legal system.)

5. This was over 10 years ago. My son is still the same: he was just released from prison ~2 weeks ago. Unless he changes his lifestyle, he will return.

stalking, but it all depends on the person--like someone above said. I have ptsd and I didn't know I had it when the bishop started e-mailing me. I have a problem with authority figures in the lds church--I think I HAVE to give over my power to the leaders even when I'm not active.

I felt assaulted and I felt suicidal--and I couldn't figure out why I was feeling like I was, so I went to my therapist who talked to me about this was an obvious PTSD reaction--which he had never noticed before.

I had a lot of interaction with mormon leaders before I got married to my gay ex--it was very mind-bending.

After my daughter went back to the lds church (this ward), I was "pursued." They had to help save me for her.

It has a lot to do with perception, but if you feel it, then they are going too far.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 10:39AM by cl2.

Maybe not gang-stalking from what I've experienced, but definitely stalking. I have had Mormons pretend to be nice to me and ask me personal questions, then only to find out later they used that information to slander me to other Mormons. So I guess you could call it gossip-stalking and lovebomb-interrogating.

I found out from a neighbor once that some Mormon exroommates of mine who didn't like me for various reasons (being exMormon was one of them) had been keeping tabs on me--like when I left the house, when I was at school, where I was at school, where I worked.

Then there's the constant shoulder rub/garment-check. You could call that "covert" information-gathering.

I get harassed and bullied a lot by Mormons in the community, and one of the intentions of bullying is to drive the victim crazy by lowering their self-esteem and sense of safety. Repeat--to drive that person crazy.

Even my therapist agrees that I have every reasonable reason to be paranoid and fear for my mental well-being.

So, maybe not gang-stalking. Personally, I'd call it something like cult-stalking, cult-bullying, cult-losers, etc . . .

In my last neighborhood there were three mormon families.

They always made it a point to walk or drive by our house on Sundays, especially if we didn't go to church. We lived at the end of a dead end road.

They would drop in unannounced, stand in my living room and crane their necks to see into my bedroom and kitchen. They would ask to use my bathroom every single time they were there. They lived 3 houses away, they could have went home, or did their business before they got there.

More than once a bishop made a comment to me that let me know they were reporting back to him.

Also, there were two women in our ward that would drop by at odd times unannounced. I was never friends with them, and didn't really like them. It felt like they were trying to catch me doing something. What, I have no idea.

Add to this vt, and Ht's and we were being constantly monitored several times a week.

I can only speculate what they were up to. I am chronically ill. I wasn't always able to go to meetings. I don't think they believed me because I look just fine. I think someone decided I had a drug problem when they saw my medications on the kitchen counter. I think they were spying on me to see if I was a drug addict. I know for a fact that they rummaged through by bathroom cabinets, only to find toilet bowl cleaner.

I can't begin to tell you how insulting that is. I also find it hilarious. What a bunch of dimwits.

We have since moved. We live in the same ward, but now we live behind a gate on a dead end road. I haven't seen any of those people since we moved.

That's a crazy experience. Were there any covert stalking techniques they used like what you would see in the video?

Telling someone their awful haircut looks nice to be polite is still a lie but not the lie Hitler told the Jews about relocation camps.

Inviting my kid to YM, when I wasn't in hearing distance, because you think I don't want him there but you think your religion gives you a moral imperative is not the same as Brian David Mitchell entering the Smarts home and taking Elizabeth because he thought religious rights trumped parental rights.

Having the ward gang up on you with fake friendship, plates of cookies, harassment and constant uplifting messages is not the same as official gang stalking.

Pale pink is not the same color as blood red.

It all goes a spectrum from mild bad behavior to extreme bad behavior. But it's still bad behavior. It still shows a mindset of being willing to do the bad behavior, even if you don't justify the extreme ends of the spectrum. Your beliefs have gotten you to take the first and second steps along a road you have no business being on. The fact you haven't made it to the finish line of crazy doesn't change the fact you are drinking the lite beer version of the behavior.

Fair enough. Maybe there is room for opening up the definition a little bit to encompass other harassment issues that could be similar to this.

Mostly I wanted to connect what I knew of gang stalking and what other people said was gang stalking that Mormons specifically did in another thread.

In other words, if it is pale pink we might as well call it pale pink. However, it still could be interesting to compare it to red.

Agreed. It's not a different beast, just a bigger, badder version of the beast puppy. It's interesting to look at what it could grow up to be and what it is.

Go watch a horror movie. People do not generally come here to be confronted, or to be doubted when sharing, as you clearly do. Especially when their life has BEEN a horror movie. Good for you that your life has been all sunshine and roses, but I wonder, do you believe there is ANYTHING damaging about Mormonism, or that fanatical, and therefore dangerous people are attracted to TSCC? Because my b.s. detector is has been going off on you for so long it's gonna need a change of batteries soon.

<muses to self: what does snb stand for anyway? So Not Believable?>

snb = male version of SusieQ#1

Sorry, but I'm not moved. I really couldn't care less what either of you think.

Sorry? Yes, you are.

Congratulations, you won!

lol

You care about something, but it's not about the suffering of others, that is clear. No, you CARE about having a histrionic debate where you make it annoyingly obvious that you are more interested in getting off on creepy things at the expense of another's mental health. Oh, and you may edit and retract what you say every two seconds, so I'll just repeat for everyone here that you called XYZ a 'little man.' Dude, projecting much?

And another thing, realizing there is a sociopath in one out of every twenty-five people, I'm just saying, there are plenty more than twenty-five people who come here and post. If the shoe fits....

"Oh, and you may edit and retract what you say every two seconds"

Actually I don't do that. You are either ignorant or lying.

s.n.b. = SuzieQ's New Boyfriend

So this seems like perhaps a paranoia of some sort. We all have an over-tuned pattern and agent detection system. It helped our ancestors avoid predators. (I've been reading Michael Shermer's The Believing Brain.)

It would be easy to start imagining that people were following or observing you when it's really not the case.

It could be real though... but there'd have to be some existing set of people who actually had a reason, most likely known to you, to do this.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 02:30PM by rationalguy.

"It could be real though... but there'd have to be some existing set of people who actually had a reason, most likely known to you, to do this."

This is exactly why I think it would be interesting to see if any exmos have had this experience while they were TBMs. I was kind of hoping to get some insight from the other side.

There's quite a history of it. I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened to some degree within Mormonism as well.

I was once followed around for a while by a detective. I had a crime committed against me, and the perpetrator's attorney was trying to get info on me and my activities. It didn't bother me, really. I wasn't up to anything interesting, and he was a very inept detective who made himself obvious. It was amusing, really, and I knew it was short-term.

It costs money and time to follow someone around like that. No one would do it without a compelling reason. Most of us are just not that interesting.

snb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Has anyone as a TBM
> participated in gang stalking?


This seems to me to be the relevant question to discover if LDSinc uses this technique of intimidation on anything like a wide or systematic basis.


Many RfMers have been former EQPs and RSPs and some have been Bishops and higher. Since this technique seems to require a large and co-ordinated group of people I can't see how it wouldn't be known to former EQPs etc, at the least.

I have never heard of it in use, in LDSinc or otherwise. That is NOT to say that I know it is never used etc.


On Scientology's use, for those who assert their use of gang-stalking: did Paul Haggis, former Scientologist and vocal critic, complain of being gang-stalked? Just wondering.