What is the line when it comes to respecting religion? My feeling is we should all respect individuals as long as they do as no wrong. However religions such as mormonism and others are certainly up for being criticized and criticized heavily if they deserve it. I will never discriminate against a mormon as a person. However, I do not have to stay silent about the crazyness of it.

Religious people often protect their ideas by wrapping them up in an emotional bundle and tying them to their very identity. The result, you can't have a civil discussion with a mormon about their beliefs without offending the core of who they are. Not true in all cases, mind you, but a terrible thing when it is, imo.

do lies deserve respect ?

Religion has been a "don't ask, don't tell" subject for a long time. I'd be fine with that, if they'd mind their own business, but right wing christians and Mormons insist on tampering with politics constantly, i.e. Prop 8 and all that creationism in schools BS as well.

I will criticize them as long as they keep trying to sneak theocracy in on us.

The unfortunate thing about religion is the whole, if you talk about it you aren't respecting it thing. People are able to openly talk and disagree about politics, but don't even try with religion. I tell my husband that, 'religion is just politics with feelings.' Since feelings are involved, someone is bound to get butthurt, no matter how respectful you keep the discussion.

When people claim "scientific evidence" to support their belief, they can't cry persecution just because someone shows that they are wrong.

Criticizing their "evidence" is not being a bigot. It is not being an anti-Mormon. It is not disrespecting their religion. When religious believers misuse and abuse science to make a claim of evidence, they need to get over it when they are exposed.

Why should telling the truth be something we have to be afraid of? Science offends Christian fundamentalists. History offends Mormons. (At least the Catholics know they can't run from it.)

People who have had the truth hidden from them in order to better be bamboozled deserve to hear the truth. Just because some in their midst want me to shut up isnt going to keep me from honesty and integrity.

This is all based on a "when it comes up" basis in most realms. I've made clear to family that if they want to talk to me about religion, we BOTH get to have freedom of religious speech. Otherwise none of us talks about it. No more rules for me but not for thee.

There is no need to respect something that isn't respectable just because those in the group think that respect is a right. It is not.

I prefer the word respect used in its highest sense.

I have younger people who work for me say often that they deserve respect. For what? They definitely deserve to be treated fairly. But for me,respect is a gift not something you 'deserve'. No one should ever expect a gift.

Yes we should treat each other fairly, but to respect is different. Respect should be reserved for those who have exemplified the best in humanity.

I don't need respect. I need rights. I need equality. I need to be surrounded by selfless wisdom. I need to be surrounded by those who do not judge, who do not call others immoral because they do not meet that person's own judgmental criteria for what is moral.

So mormon's expect respect? If they don't get it they are being persecuted. How convenient.

I don't respect religion because it is all based on lies. It may do some good and I may choose to regard some religions 'fairly', but I reserve respect for things that embrace truth and acceptance and true accomplishment devoid of guile.

The second you demand respect, you have lost your worthiness of it.

There is a very big difference between demanding respect and commanding respect.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2012 01:06PM by blueorchid.

"I need to be surrounded by selfless wisdom. I need to be surrounded by those who do not judge, who do not call others immoral because they do not meet that person's own judgmental criteria for what is moral."

Well said. Me too.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2012 12:37PM by MJ.

I believe there is a fundamental respect we give a person as a human being which is an acknowledgment of the right they have to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Each person has an "inalienable" right to live their own life the way they see fit as long as their choice does not infringe on the rights of others.

As I see it, these are default rights which are not earned but are taken away if abused.

Similarly, every religion has a right to exist until it violates the rights of the individuals it serves. Sometimes religions think the members serve the institution. This is actually a recognized "stage" in the life of a company (corporation, institution, etc) in which the initial commitment of the individuals to a goal they share is replaced by a mission to preserve the organization (sometimes at all costs, even the original goal).

You can see that in action with the protecting of sexual predator priests and Mormon youth leaders.

In the earlier stages, a religion or organization may deserve respect but lose it later on. Like people, religions change. Buddhism has gained respect for the unwavering non-violent commitment of the Dalai Lama in the face of horrific persecution from China. Catholicism has lost respect for its shameful sheltering of pedophile priests. Scientology lost respect when its crazy beliefs were made public followed by stories of abuse of members who tried to leave. Islam lost respect due to its members participating in terrorism (even though it was a splinter group). Mormonism lost respect via Warren Jeffs polygamy (even though it was a splinter group).

Both Mormonism and Islam gained respect through television programs which portray members as sincere people just trying to live their religion (no matter how crazy the beliefs seem to outsiders).

Religions get default respect because ALL their beliefs are fantasy to some degree and we have agreed as a society that religion in general is desirable. Views on this are changing.

America is watching Europe nervously to see what happens when atheism becomes the dominant religion and faces off against radical fundamentalism in various flavors.

It's an interesting time to be a religion-watcher, that's for sure.


Anagrammy

That's great poetry but it's not true.

The right to life? Doesn't exist.

The right to liberty? Check out all the laws we have.

The right to pursue happiness? I don't think so (see Right #2 above.)

As George Carlin said, "You either have all rights or you have no rights."

And there is no one out there making sure you get any "inalienable rights". You have to take them or you'll never get them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2012 01:26AM by Brian-the-Christus.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2012 03:12PM by Brian-the-Christus.

archaeologymatters Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the line when it comes to
> respecting religion?
...


In large measure, it got us to where we are today
as a species. It was a step along the evolutionary
ladder, being a necessary means to bolster and
preserve a viable social order for our ancestors.

In that regard, religion deserves our respect, in
the same way that our Great Uncle Ebenezer deserves
our respect -- he may have been a drunk and a
horse thief, but without him some of us would not
be here today.

And -- there remains the possibility that a few of
Great Uncle Ebenezer's offspring may yet contribute
some good fruit on the family tree -- if they can
evolve out of promoting the supernatural and fostering
group-think and mind-control.

Give religion another few millenia -- and see how it
develops. It may become a forgotten artifact of our
primitive past; or some manifestations of it may evolve
into something we'll need as a species in the future.

That's my idea of "respect."

Uncle Dale

I get e-mails all the time from Mormons who get upset that I have revealed their "sacred not secret" temple stuff. "Please respect what to us is sacred."

Do Mormons "respect" the religious beliefs and practices of others? NO!

They have a full-time corps of 50,000 missionaries all over the world, telling people that their present beliefs are false, that their prior baptisms are not recognized by God, that God has pronounced their present religions to be an "abomination" in his eyes, and that their hope of being with their loved ones in heaven is a vain hope unless they join the Mormons.

Do Mormons wash their hands before touching a copy of the Koran? No, they do not show that respect.

Do Mormons, when mentioning Mohammed, say the respectful phrase "Peace Be Upon Him"? No, they do not show that respect.

Do Mormons, out of respect for the Jews' reverence for the sacred name of God, always write the word with a hyphen ("G-d")? No, they do not show that respect.

Do Mormons abstain from eating beef, out of respect for the Hindus' belief in the holiness of the cow? No, they do not show that respect.

They don't even respect their own teaching "Do unto others..."

My issue is that saying something is "sacred" somehow makes it worthy of respect.

Respect must be earned, not granted because some group of people who are emotionally invested in something. Respect must be based on how well the claims correlate with actual facts.

Religions have perfected a mechanism of protecting something, be it a ritual, person or belief by convincing people that something sacred cannot be scrutinized.

I say it is time to expect religion to be treated like any other topic. No more claims of a special cloak of sacredness to prevent inquiry and scrutiny.

Pointing out the obvious is considered "disrespectful" to the believer. It is only a conditioned response designed to protect the religion and not upset the mental house of cards that religion builds in the minds of the believer.

Since they don't respect the nonreligious, I'll take it as a sign they don't really want to be respected in return. That's how the Golden Rule works, right?

But as Karen Armstrong quipped, what's the point of religion if you can't use it to condemn others?

I've been wrestling with this topic for a while now. The respect card is often pulled to silence those with a different opinion. This happens in politics ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." George W. Bush September 20, 2001) and religion ("Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" (Matthew 12:30), and also "Whoever is not against us is for us" (Mark 9:40).).

A family member recently posted the "Unicorn Blog" and I responded with my thoughts on it. As a response to my comments, I had the infamous respect card pulled on me. The following, is part of my answer ...

"Though most people agree about the importance of respect, there does not seem to be a universal consenus on the concept ... or what it entails. The word respect is derived from the Latin word respicere which means "to look back at" or "to look again". Unfortunately, the voicing of (a difference in) a perspective is often widely misunderstood as disrespect. Interestingly so, since we can hardly show respect through ignoring, being oblivious to, neglecting, or disregarding one another. Paying heed to topics and controversy's that are brought to our attention, by trying to see things from a different angle, (while simultaneously giving others the opportunity to see things through our own lens), is a form of respect. It shows our interest in, and regard for the person, who values us enough to make us aware of these things.

While I embrace the act of showing respect through the practice of discourse, I have become wary of a definition that would be gaged toward silencing those who seek acceptance and equal rights for their fellow citizens. Mutely "respecting" the beliefs of others was not the tactic that led to my right (as a woman) to vote ... or progress in the Civil Rights Movement."

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken

I respect someone's right, their freedom, to believe what they want to. I will not respect their right to discriminate and marginalize me.

+1

Wow, great thread! People cry out that we should respect their beliefs as a way to shut us up and trample on ours. Where's the respect in that?

There's no need to respect anyone more because they're religious but simply the right of every person to choose their religion or no religion.

I don't make an open show of disliking any religion unless someone is imposing it on me by intruding on my rights and boundaries.

It makes no sense to "respect" religions as such, especially the precepts that require racism, sexism, homophobia and other hurtful practices like polygamy, physical abuse, and murder.

I think ultimately what really needs to be looked at when dealing with people is intention.

Do they knowingly and intentionally deceive you? Or is it their heart-felt belief in what they say and desire to help you see and accept what they understand as true? Are they doing it out of love and concern? (whether we agree how or what they are doing).

Religions, as we all pretty much know, are man-made and always should be up for scrutiny.

But the people, all of us really, we're all just trying to hang on to and share what we truly believe makes a person happy and gives them a sense of safety and purpose.

Do each of us agree with other's ideas. Often no, and that's okay, it's our right. And equally so, it is their right to believe what they will.

We all grow at our own rates and for some of us waiting for others to catch up to or accept what we have been enlightened with, takes patience and love. After all, that's why we are who we are and opt to do what we do... help and teach others as they are ready to grow.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2012 08:19AM by partymxman.

If someone is dead, talking about "intensions" doesn't bring them back to life.

No matter the intentions, it's always always rude to share one's religion unless someone makes a request.

I believe that people are worthy of respect, but that ideas are open to discussion and debate. Religion, like politics, is a sensitive matter and you have to judge your audience. Some people can't tolerate any discussion about their religion at all, some can tolerate a fair amount. But I would say that if people can't look at their own religion with at least some degree of objectivity, then they are too bound up in it.

In terms of the wider public discourse, anything is fair game. In the U.S. this comes under "freedom of speech" and is considered to be a fundamental human right.

Question everything? sure and another on the limitless list of why I left the church.

but without anger, I would hope, at least in my life. darn quote now :
"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves" that guy Buddha again, sheesh, he sure seems to ground me.

a goal. simply a goal. Mos are so very invested in their beliefs that it makes it difficult. Working with misshies I am very aware that they can get sooo defensive. but.. I am learning the dance. I don't want them to get mad, just questioning. Seems it really hurts for some of them. Like prying open a long sealed door. Once you get a little bit of light to shine in the door.... it makes it easier the next time. I hope



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2012 09:50AM by mindlight.

Well all I can say to this great stimulating and intelligent discussion is...

If you are nice to people, there's a shot they'll be nice to you and like you.

If you disrespect something important to people they won't like you. Now maybe that doesn't matter, but I prefer not to piss people off. It isn't always possible, but mostly I can do it. To each his own.