Here's a link to the story.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54372547-80/church-gay-lds-lgbt.html.csp

My initial thought was "about time". Then I realized this guy is just a lone, former bishop out in California. He doesn't speak for the church. Is he going to get a call from Boyd Pucker?

I wonder if the church is aware of what he's doing. Are they using him to test out a softer stance to see if it will fly with the general membership? What kind of conversations are happening in the upper room at the temple? Is there a huge power struggle going on between Packer and Jeffery Jowels?

After reading the article I'm left wondering how that guy can remain a member of the church. The disconnect between the truth he has seen in his own family and with the people he knows, and what the church has taught on homosexuality is enormous.

In the end it's a fine example of ongoing enlightenment but the guy still stops short of calling for full equality. I hope this is an indication that the church will be a bit quicker in finding the right side of this issue than it has been with the race issue.

He is the bishop of the Bay Ward, 1900 Pacific Avenue, SF, CA.

I have met some of his victims - gay men who are exceptionally fucked up in their heads because people like this goon convince them that their place is within his fold, where he encourages a very finely-ground cog-dis.

Note that he says this is his THIRD go-round as bishop there. What does that say?

Also note that though he was prominent in the church during 2008, he has NOTHING TO SAY about Proposition 8. What does that say?

He doesn't call for full equality because HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN IT. The guy is nothing but a tool and a shill for a thug cult. This is just another one of those articles designed to make the Mormon cult look "gay friendly" in a Mitt Romney election year.

Lipstick on a bigoted pig.

Gays used to be considered degenerate perverts that needed to be shunned at a minimum if not locked up in an institution.

This bishop has gone a step further and realized that being Gay isn't choice or a perversion, it's just what these people are. Once people understand that fact they are a whole lot closer to the realization that it's wrong to deny equality to someone because they are "left handed".

It still teaches bigotry, hate, intolerance, and that gays should not be granted the same rights and respects as everyone else.

Maybe that status is OK for you, but NOT for me. I will NOT accept second class citizenship because a one or two of the worst things are no longer practiced.

Making a step forward is not good enough if you are still stepping in @#$%&.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2012 04:03PM by MJ.

here here, I find this to be one of the most insidious practices the church has authored yet.

Yes we love and accept you and welcome you to our fold, just don't act gay ok.

+1

He is an ophthalmologist. He lives and practices in San Francisco, California. He doesn't live and practice medicine in the middle of Mongolia, the middle of India, or even the middle of America. He lives and works in one of the two places in the United States that for decades has been Mecca for the LGBT community. He was there when the Mormon church was pushing the anti-gay Proposition 22 (Knight Initiative) in 2000, and and Proposition 8 in 2008.

You wrote:
>> "But even that position is huge step forward. Gays used to be considered degenerate perverts that needed to be shunned at a minimum if not locked up in an institution."

The American Psychological Association took that step in 1973: “[...]we acknowledge that by itself [homosexuality] does not meet the requirements for a psychiatric disorder." In the western world, and more specifically in the United States, radical changes in public opinion have taken place since 1973. The culture at large is wildly different than it was then. There are only a few stark exceptions, one of which is the reactionary culture of Mormonism.

Of all the things Fletcher claims in his article, the ONE THING he never admits is that the Mormon church continues to consider LGBT people as third-class citizens AT BEST who do not deserve the same rights and privileges of heterosexual citizens ($#!t, Mormons even "let" their second-class citizens - women - get married...). Not only do they consider LGBT people to be third-class, they ACTIVELY WORK to create laws that will keep it that way. The only times Mormons have backed away from this ever more rigid stance is when public (Non-Mormon) disapprobation forces them to.

Just because someone no longer publicly voices something DOES NOT MEAN THEY NO LONGER THINK IT AND BELIEVE IT. In that way, every bigot in America is vastly more savvy about their public image today than they were in 1950: they keep their mouths shut and work toward achieving their goals using coded language that is sometimes obvious and sometimes not so obvious.

By omitting open acknowledgement of any and all of the negative political actions of Mormons (as directed by the Mormon church), Fletcher tacitly lets the church and its adherents off the hook. In fact, every active Mormon who publishes on this topic does the same thing: they pointedly ignore the elephant in the corner. Mormons institutionally seek to deny LGBT Americans full franchisement as citizens. But neither Fletcher nor any other active Mormon ever calls the church out on it. Why not?

You wrote:
>> "Once people understand that fact they are a whole lot closer to the realization that it's wrong to deny equality to someone because they are 'left handed'."

Yes, I believed that once myself, in the 1980s. I thought imparting the education and information that LGBT people are human (and all that term entails) was the truth that would set us free. But after watching the Mormon church unrelentingly continue to solidify their anti-LGBT stance beginning in the mid-1960s, I have to admit that I was a fool. I was wrong. I used to believe that any bigot could be reformed. I was wrong. Some bigots can only be forced to withdraw their activism from the public arena. The hierarchy that determines the direction of the Mormon church is that kind of bigot: egotistical, narcissistic, and mad for power, they only respect an entity that is bigger and stronger and more determined to win than they are.

Proposition 8 ended marriage equality in California after only five months. In response, many Mormon individuals and families were horrified at what their church had wrought, and went inactive or resigned in protest. I can not answer for the mentality of a LGBT Mormon living in San Francisco who witnessed that summer and autumn and chose to remain Mormon - I can only imagine that their self-identification faculties were a disastrous mess to begin with. If Don Fletcher really is sincere about his conviction regarding the LGBT people he knows, then his continued membership in the Mormon church during and after November 2008 is nothing short of the basest, self-centered, egotistically-driven hypocrisy imaginable.

The Mormon church is still prepared to spend millions if not billions of dollars to win their anti-LGBT agenda, and please do not for one second think that if Mormons could create their perfect world there would be any place for LGBT people in it. There would not be. And until all the Donald Fletchers and Mitch Maynes and Josh Weeds of the world do what the Benji Schwimmers of the world do, which is call the Mormon church on its hypocritical $#!t and vote with their feet and wallets and leave, the Mormon church is NOT making ANY step forward, let alone a huge one. They are only controlling their retreat.

// deleted //



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2012 11:31PM by cludgie.

I don't think I was suggesting that what this Bishop in California is doing is by any definition "good enough" far from it. I'm not defending the church here, I'm just trying to make sense of it.

Suppose you have a choice between the following options. 1. This bishop does what he has done - partner with the Family Acceptance Project in an attempt to change how homosexuals are treated by the general Mormon population.

Or

2. Have him carry on the Boyd K. Pucker tradition of advocating violence against homosexuals. In your eyes which is better?

I can see how the church could exploit his actions as window dressing to mask their bottomless bigotry. The vast majority of the members may still harbor hatred and suspicion. It may give the church more time to perpetrate evil because of the distraction, yeah I get that, it's just "love the sinner but hate the sin BS in a shiny new wrapper. But some of the members of the church are going to read what this guy has to say and they are going to start thinking. Once they start thinking then we have hope.

There is no way the entire church is going to wake up one morning and realize they were wrong on this issue. It has to happen one individual at a time. When(not if) the supreme court rules that denying equality in marriage is unconstitutional, what happens? The church will probably suck in a collective gasp then dig even deeper into their persecution bunker. They'll be even more convinced that Satan is trying extra hard because these really are the last days and the Second Coming is just around the corner. In that environment there is no thinking. It's all fear and panic.

In my opinion(which I'm willing to change) more progress will be made if this bishop's actions are praised and then built upon. Despite the fact that the church might exploit this guy's work, isn't it better than the alternative? Imagine a confused 15 year old kid trying to make sense of his sexuality and his relationship to the universe. Is he more or less likely to commit suicide if this guy is his bishop? If Boyd Pucker was his bishop?

What is one life worth?

I refuse to choose either of your options, because they are not the only two options available. Both Fletcher and Packer are singing the same tune: "You LGBTs are not worthy enough to be considered First Class Citizens."

The only difference is that Packer knows the words and sings them right out loud, and all the Russell Hendersons of the world then rush out and kill a qweer for Mormon God. Fletcher knows the words too, but he is muffling them in the hope that some poor deluded LGBT fool will miss what he said but enjoy the tune, stay in the cult, and continue paying his tithing like a good little Third-Class evil sinning Doo-Bee should. You ask who is doing more damage? Both. Differently.

Since I consider Mormons Inc. to be 1 million per cent damaging in every way to everyone who comes in contact with it, I can't see Mormon "acceptance" or "tolerance" of LGBT people as being something a normal person would want or find desirable anyway. On the issue of whether the Mormon church institutionally "accepts" or "tolerates" LGBT people or not, frankly they either need to choose black or white on the question, because to do otherwise and stay in the gray zones (which is exactly what they're doing by design) is to continue to fuck with everybody's minds, gay, straight, and otherwise.

The LGBT Mormon who chooses to merely exist in Don Fletcher's lobotomized Bay Ward are of no use to the side of RIGHT and GOOD. That pitiful minority has been, are, and will always be gelded show-ponies that the cult dresses up and trots out to convince the dumbest 50% of the population that Mormons "treat LGBT people with respect." A LGBT child growing up within the Mormon church is already getting the black and white version of life. They don't deserve to be scared to death by the vitriol of pathetic scum like Packer, but they also don't deserve to be confused into collusion by the haze of gray mist sprayed at them by sleazy double-dealers like Fletcher.

My goal, effort, and dream is to continue forcing the issue of their public meddling in the law as it applies to LGBT people until it becomes so painful for them that they just. stop. persecuting. LGBT. people. forever. I walked away from Mormonism almost thirty years ago and gave them plenty of room to live and let live. But that wasn't good enough for them. They crossed the line. They threw the first punch. They fired the first volley. Do they want a war to the bitter end? You bet, and I'm ready for it.

What kind of piece of $#!T human needs to ask their religion whether they should love their own normal child?

What kind of piece of $#!T loser needs a manual to tell them that their own normal child is an acceptable human too?

What corporate institution posing as a religion deserves any consideration whatsoever when they start fucking with the minds of normal children, telling them 'you are worth less than $#!T and you are better off dead than gay'? Telling them 'you are evil sinners'? Telling them 'you can sit in our congregations but keep your filthy hands off our NORMAL children'? Telling them 'there is no place in our eternal plan for you, but if you pray hard enough, you might just be able to choose to change from your disgusting perversion'? Telling them 'we value you, now get out there and work to pass this legislation that keeps you in the Third-Class section'?

I couldn't give two $#!Ts whether the Mormon church accepts, tolerates, or even likes me and my kind or not, but I'll be god-damned if I will let them lie, cheat and steal my civil rights away solely on the basis of their bigotry. Will there be casualties? Undoubtedly and unfortunately, yes. There are always casualties in war.

I learned long, long, long ago to watch, not listen, when the Mormons do anything. Mormon ACTIONS tell me they are not changing. Not one inch or ounce of change. Mormon WORDS are just a buzz of irritating noise designed to confuse those who refuse to see. Actions speak louder than words.

xyz. You stirred my soul. I don't know how to repay you for writing that. Thank you.

It's all so obvious isn't it? And yet even spelled out that clearly so many still only see what they want to see.

Stunted -my problem with it is that unlike the original church standing which was 'choosing homosexual behavior is a sin' which previously implied that homosexuals chose their sexual orientation and were thus sinning purposely. And was a basic in your face flaunting of their bigotry.

The new church mantra - 'we love you even though you are homosexuals but if you act on your sexuality it's a sin'. Sounds much better - on the surface - The difference is a bit subtle but it's basically the same message. You can't help being who you are (unlike you can choose your sexuality) but you can choose not to act like who you are. (Honestly can't even beleive the stupidity of that last statement)

However, if you identify as LGBT then acting LGBT - IS NORMAL so asking people to not act normal because you have a problem is wrong.

To me the whole change in the church is insidious because it's hiding bigotry behind a big ol' blanket of love. I think it's more difficult for people to see what is really being said which is basically 'there's something wrong with you so even though you were born this way - it's wrong/bad to act that way'

When they finally get that there's is nothing wrong/bad with being LGBT nor is there anything wrong/bad with acting LGBT Then I'll take them seriously. Until then I just think about the people who are wrapped up in this religion and carry hope around like a security blanket thinking that the presidency will change it's mind. It may, give it another 150 years- if Mormonism is still around then. Until then it's just better to move on, get away from these kind of people and get on with your life.

Live an authentic life, it's too short to do anything else.

Every time I start thinking that I've shed the remnants of my Mormon conditioning I get a huge reality check in the mail. At least this time it isn't "stamped postage due".

I think we're all agreed that the Cult is pretty F'ed up in just about every way but particularly so when it comes to their bigotry. Perhaps my problem is that my thinking has been too narrow. I keep thinking in terms of me and mine rather than stepping back to look at the bigger picture. If one of my children is gay how is that going to play out with my wife still TBM and me the apostate? Is my wife going to blame me and my falling away for God cursing us with a gay child? Will she hate me even more when she sees me love and support the child all the way? I kind of like the fact that I can point to this bishop and say "see, even this guy knows that being gay isn't a choice or a sin. It can only help me and my child in a situation like that.

Mormonism is a pretty small and insignificant organization on the global scale. When you are surrounded by the cult it's all you can see. Thanks for sharing the larger view.

I think this is one of those situations where those of us who are LGBT have learned the hard way to pick apart every and any statement the church or a representative of the church makes about us, find the lies, expose the doubledoubletalktalk, and remind them that they have yet to acknowledge our humanity, our equality, our sinlessness, and our normality. And remind them that they have yet to express regret and sorrow for their own crimes against us. They never have done either, and that is why I and many others refuse to accept their honey-coated lies as anything but what they are: honey-coated lies.

I don't mind explaining it again and again - and I am pretty sure most LGBT people feel the same - because as you point out, there is always someone arriving in a new place where they are ready and willing to listen and hear. Your state of thinking about you and yours is the same as me and mine - this is how most of us get through every day, and there is no crime in that! I appreciate that you are willing to turn and look in a different direction and ask questions about what you see - so many people are not willing to do that.

Best regards.

The gay community is the only minority on the planet that has members that come from every race, every culture and gender of humans on the planet. There is a huge diversity of ideas as to what being gay really means, how to approach the battle, What's appropriate what is not, etc..

There can also be a vastly different understanding of what it means to be gay between a person that is just coming out and a person that has been out for decades.

Then there is also the age gap, people that came out when I did, pre-AIDS, had a vastly different coming out experience than those coming out now days. There were no Gay/Straight alliances in high school when I came out. I helped start the Gay Student Union at the collage I attended. There were no gay characters on TV and those that were in the movies were, well not flattering. So those coming out today have a much different idea of what it means to be gay than I.

Some of us have drawn a harsh line in the sand, others not so much. I have been fighting a long time, others have enjoyed coming out in a far safer environment that was built by people like me.

I want him to stop doing ANYTHING that hurts gays. Anything that hurts gays is UNACCEPTABLE.

You are asking us to choose between different levels of second class citizenship, would such a choice really be acceptable to you? I feel sorry for you if it is.

I have been fighting for equal rights for over 30 years, and I still do not have equal rights. I may NEVER see equal rights in my lifetime. There has been a lot of times where gays have gotten a crust of bread and told we should "celebrate progress". Basically we are being told we should be happy that we were given a table scrap. Sorry, that is not acceptable. We deserve and demand a seat at the table and we will NOT celebrate being handed table scraps.

For me, 30+ years of being told to celebrate progress because I had been given scraps from the table while still being denied my rightful place at the table is enough. It is time to bite the had of those trying to keep us from the table by handing us scraps and letting them know that scraps are no longer acceptable.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2012 07:21PM by MJ.

You *might* be able to change the attitude a little, but it's the doctrine that is the problem. Mormon doctrine insists that Godhood (celestial glory) depends on heterosexual marriage. There is no place in the doctrine for homosexuals. Period.

And because of this, you see the over-the-top statements by GAs because they see homosexuality as antithetical to the Plan of Salvation and threatening. So, you have Spencer Kimball saying that saying one is gay is "blasphemy," and of course you have all the nasty things Packer has said over the years.

As long as the doctrine is what it is, the hatred for gays will come as a natural consequence of the doctrine.

while what you say is accurate.... I doubt or at least don't have any documentation on how many members ('actually') believe in the Godhood thing, much less have that as their working goal.

just a thought.

It is a well-known and often-taught doctrine of the church that human couples have the potential to become Gods. I have met only one Mormon in my lifetime who explicitly denied that doctrine. Most Mormons I have known believe that doctrine, and I would be surprised if most active Mormons didn't believe it.

Blacks being the tainted offspring of Cain is still official doctrine too and that hasn't stopped the church from going around it to graciously allow those less than choice saints to enter the temple and receive the priesthood(provided they have a penis).

Sure, officially the church accepts black people, but there is still a residual racism in the church. I still see people justifying the "curse" (see Randy Bott, as well as bcspace on other boards) using the same tired arguments made by such obvious racists as Joseph Fielding Smith and Mark Petersen.

Unfortunately most TBM's will never change their homophobic stances.
ex. 1- I got into a discussion with my MIL about how it was wrong do deny people equal rights, no matter what you believe personally. We argued for an hour and the only thing she could say was, "Marriage is between a man and a woman...marriage is between a man and a woman."
ex. 2- My husband has a TBM friend who he argues with about the LDS religion all the time. My husband told this friend that he may find his church changing standpoints one day, just like they did with blacks and the priesthood. The friend stated, "The day that the LDS church fully accepts gays, is the day I'll leave the church and admit you are right."
It's sad that they can't actually see how these thoughts don't follow Jesus' example.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2012 02:13PM by fidget.

If the LD$ church were what it says it is (i.e, "the only true church on earth"), I'd pay a whole lot more attention to this bishop, and to what the GAs say about homosexuality.

But it's not.

All it takes is for the First Pres. to dismiss the other fourteen men, tell them, "I'd like to pray about it in the Holy of Hollies," come out and say, "God has now sanctioned gay marriage."

That will settle it all.

according to Taylor G. Petrey there isn't anything in the church doctrine itself per se that would keep gays from having eternal gay families https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dialogue_V44N04_110.pdf

it's a choice that the first presidency has made and just like BY with his bigotry have determined to act upon.

That being said, I think it is horribly harmful for LGBT people to remain in the church regardless of bishops like this.

As it stands there is not place for them in the church and being 'nice' to them and 'fellowshipping' them is just short of not being an a$$hole.

I am conflicted about people like this Bishop. I really hope members will treat gay people better and not make homophobic comments so that gay members will feel more comfortable. But at the same time this seems so insufficient. He is going around trying to get gay people to come back to a church that hates them and thinks they are dangerous. We saw this in the recent Mormon Stories podcast when Benji Schwimmer told about his Stake President telling him he would never be allowed to serve in a calling where he would have contact with the youth. Gay people can go to church and even if they are celibate they will be second class members. If they aren't celibate they can never fully participate in the ordinances of the church. I wish all gay people would just get out but some of them really believe in it. For their sake I support people like this bishop.

My comment:

If two people of the same sex got married in a state where such unions are legal, would the church welcome the couple? When the answer is yes, let me know. That will be real news and not just the church's usual candy-coated bullcrap.

I love SLDrone's comment to this article:

"Well, it's finally happened. The Mormons are starting to feel the financial loss of gay people leaving. There is something surreal when members of a certain religion or organization of any kind need a book and a program to tell them to love their own children, It's not the book they need, it's a different religion.

"Mormons are within bounds to require abstinence before marriage to be in their club. But when they deny the rights of gay people to marry and also demand abstinence until marriage they've crossed over into the land of lifelong condemnation and bigotry. Until the day comes that they support marriage equality the Mormon LGBT community and their families would be better served by the exit door period. Forget books and programs, RUN!"



sigh. Good times.

From the article:

Quote:
"Supportive Families, Healthy Children: Helping Latter-Day Saint Families With Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Children," co-written by Caitlin Ryan, director of the Family Acceptance Project (http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/) and Bob Rees, a former LDS bishop, may well be the tool that gives Mormon families what they need to accept their LGBT children. End Quote.


That there shows what a messed up religion Mormonism is.
If Mormon Parents need a 'tool' to accept their son or daughter simply because they are gay then they don't deserve to be parents. The fact that it is their religious belief that puts parents in this position shows that Mormonism is far far removed from understanding the principles of Christs teachings.

The First Presidency and Apostles should hang their head in shame and apologise unreservedly for propagating homophobic anti-gay sentiments in their membership.

I don't think any LGBTs should try to be in the Mormon church but if the church realized they are losing money from the bigoted doctrine and decided to truly accept gay people it would be so awesome.
Why? Because my family's heads would explode. They are so homophobic and bigoted and I would just love to see their reaction when their precious church changes its doctrine just like it did in 1978.

They would pull over the car and weep tears...of sorrow.