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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
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Posted by: archaeologymatters ( )
Date: June 24, 2012 02:35PM

At least that is what many a tbm has told me over the years, haha.

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Posted by: biblebeltbetsy ( )
Date: June 24, 2012 03:33PM

Oh really? Do elaborate! I'd love to hear their reasoning lol

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 24, 2012 04:12PM

I can tell you the reasoning from what I remember reading from Hugh Nibley many years ago. He argues like this (which is typical of his arguments):

The Dead Sea Scrolls depict a an ancient Christian community and doctrines that are a lot like Mormonism.

Joseph Smith couldn't have know of these characteristics and doctrines, so God had to reveal them to him.

Therefore, Mormonism is the restoration of ancient Christianity by revelation through Joseph Smith.

It was pretty exciting line of reasoning for me when I was a Mormon. It is also false in this particular instance and relies on bad methodology. Jesus was not an Essene. The Essenes were very exclusive and focused on purity. Jesus was *inclusive* and was very critical of purity laws. The Essenes attempted to get away from society. Jesus attempted *change* society.

Hugh Nibley found parallels everywhere--even when they didn't exist and were not true parallels--and then attempted to use the supposed parallels as evidence for the truth of Mormonism. He also "cherry-picked" sources, took them out of context, and distorted their meaning. Even some Mormon critics have noted these things.

Nibley did some very bad scholarship in defending Mormonism. I consider his work a kind of fantasy in which he invents a Mormonism that doesn't really exist and marries it to an ancient world that never really existed, either.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: June 25, 2012 07:46AM

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can tell you the reasoning from what I remember
> reading from Hugh Nibley many years ago. He argues
> like this (which is typical of his arguments):
>
> The Dead Sea Scrolls depict a an ancient Christian
> community and doctrines that are a lot like
> Mormonism.
>

Except the Dead Sea Scrolls make no mention of Christianity at all and were not written by Christians.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2012 07:47AM by baura.

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Posted by: flyboy21 ( )
Date: June 25, 2012 08:51PM

Correct, the Essenes at Qumran were Jews.

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 10:09AM

biblebeltbetsy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh really? Do elaborate!

That's what I would ask TBMs who make that claim. Very few would have an answer. They only heard someone else say it.

Mormons gladly grab onto anything that lets them stop worrying whether the church is true. So-and-so said such-and-such? Cool! checking the validity of what they were told would mean risking their nice little bubble of ignorant bliss. Why would they want to do that?

LDS apologists know that all they need to do is provide ANY testimony-friendly answer. It could be (and usually is) total BS. Because members who turn to the apologists are looking to have their testimony propped up. By anything. The Mars rover, kabuki and CheezWhiz prove the church is true? Excellent!

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 24, 2012 03:43PM

Yeah, another big bucket of horsetwaddle thanks to Hugh Nibley. The Dead Sea Scrolls aren't even related to ancient Christianity, much less Mormonism.

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Posted by: archaeologymatters ( )
Date: June 24, 2012 07:33PM

Hugh Nibley is an interesting character. Many mormons swear by him and talk about how he was this great intellectual. I'm sure anyone who wasn't mormon who read what he wrote didn't take much of it seriously. It sure is not seriously to me now that I'm out.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 24, 2012 07:36PM

I took him seriously. He created an alternate Mormon universe that I could inhabit. Then I began to check footnotes . . . . I think of his work as almost a genre of religious science fiction/fantasy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2012 07:37PM by robertb.

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Posted by: archaeologymatters ( )
Date: June 25, 2012 12:29AM

It makes sense. That is basically what mormonism is; a fantasy story.

Although it is below fantasy in many ways. You can not 100% prove Star Wars or Lord of the Rings did not happen. I mean they are part of a man's imagination, but I will never be able to know 100% if the events of Star Wars did not take place in a galaxy far far way or if the events of LotR did not happen in a place called "Middle Earth." I do know 100% for certain that the events of the Book of Mormon did not occur where it says it does.

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Posted by: The other Sofia ( )
Date: June 25, 2012 11:34AM

The BOM is a bunch of twaddle but LOTR definitely happened! I'd even believe Star Wars before the BOM if they didn't make Princess Lea wear such a ridiculous hairdo.

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Posted by: William Law ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 02:25PM

Whatever respect is lost for her over the the hairdo is certainly made up for with the skimpy slave outfit.

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Posted by: lapsed ( )
Date: June 25, 2012 11:48AM

22. Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.

Taken from:
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

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Posted by: smith ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 02:56PM

Thank you for this link. I have been looking for a source for all this information for a while.

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Posted by: archytas ( )
Date: June 25, 2012 08:35PM

As I understand it, the Qumran community was celibate...not exactly looking for their eternal companions if you know what I mean.

Also, the Old Testament manuscripts found with the DSS cast doubt on the JST big time! Apologists can't claim Medieval scribes were tweaking with them either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2012 08:57PM by archytas.

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Posted by: Lucky ( )
Date: June 26, 2012 08:44AM

yes and they also prove Joseph Smith was a real prophet too.

some MORmON tithing wits have lately been claiming that the dead sea scrolls also contain kolob as the name of god's home planet and the LDs temple ceremony, which all proves that Joe really was a prophet.

I think that MORmONS who refer to the dead sea scrolls in such a way should be called brain dead! -see! scroll scholars.


Everything proves the BoM is true! (according to MORmONS) Including the three stooges!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BQrl4EZ07Y

Hugh Nibley was a MORmON = LIAR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuKb2HbiihI

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: June 26, 2012 04:28PM

K, I watched the vids, and they don't mention Kolob or the temple.

"some MORmON tithing wits have lately been claiming that the dead sea scrolls also contain kolob as the name of god's home planet and the LDs temple ceremony, which all proves that Joe really was a prophet."

So who are these apologists, and do we have any links to their fantasies?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2012 07:48PM by hello.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: June 26, 2012 07:50PM


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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: June 26, 2012 10:30AM

Where the Essenes started led by a middle aged dude who like to sleep with little girls too?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2012 07:51PM by forbiddencokedrinker.

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Posted by: Lucky ( )
Date: June 26, 2012 10:35AM

more likely Islam or MORmONISM depending on the time frame.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 26, 2012 07:54PM

Nope. they were really big on celibacy.Mormon s wouldn't have liked them at all.

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Posted by: archytas ( )
Date: June 26, 2012 08:03PM

+1

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 03:25AM

The most you can say is that John the Baptist MIGHT have been an Essene and that is pretty far removed from proof that the church is true.

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Posted by: butterfly ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 10:15AM

I remember hearing that the Dead Sea Scrolls proved TSCC true. So being interested in what I could be missing, I got my hands on a book. Can't say I ever came across anything that made me say "that's it! The church is true!"

It seems to me to just be people grasping at straws.

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Posted by: Nealster ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 10:21AM

Back in the day (early 1990's) there was a tape (remember those?) of a documentary about the DSS circulating amongst Elders and missionaries. I forget who it was by but I'm sure his first name was Vernon. Ring any bells?

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Posted by: Nealster ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 02:04PM

Bump

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Posted by: Claire Ferguson ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 02:14PM

I had the audio tape of Hugh Nibley talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Could never get past the first 15 minutes without falling asleep. And that was when I was TBM and believed every word.

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Posted by: Nealster ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 02:40PM

Thanks Claire. It was the one where he quibs 'Mormons have lots of kids' near the beginning?

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Posted by: rationalguy ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 03:31PM

Joseph Smith was an intellectual dilettante and studied everything he could get his hands on about old Judaism, Islam and others. He even hired a Jewish teacher to help him learn Hebrew. He freely mixed all these things into a mess of new theology so he could fulfill his self-appointed role as a new "prophet" and appear wise.

That tradition has continued with later Mormon "theologians," who have always loved cherry-picking various old texts in order to build false proofs of Mormon beliefs. Once I noticed this pattern it became amusing to watch. There's always been an oscillation in "doctrine" as various doctrinal poobahs wax and wane in popularity. I lived during the Bruce R. McDonkie era and everyone got all hard-core by reading his crap. Then he got de-emphasized when he croaked.

Right now they're in sort of a floaty non-doctrinal phase where metaphysical speculation is sharply discouraged. and everyone is told to just do their good works and stop thinking about those things. They are "not essential for your salvation." Just go get your home teaching done and stop asking silly questions!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2012 03:32PM by rationalguy.

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Posted by: Claire Ferguson ( )
Date: December 31, 2012 04:08PM

Nealster, I don't remember that so much (was in the 80s) but I recall him banging on about proof of temple marriage. It was pretty much a blur to me then.... and now I can barely remember a thing about it except the sleep-inducing drone of his voice.

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