Hi folks - It's Peter Henderson from Reuters. I'm working on a story about LDS finances. I'm trying to figure out what people mean when they say they tithe, in terms of what number they start with. Do you take 10 percent off the top before the government gets involved, or do a little math first? Tell me what you personally, and people close to you, paid, if you can. For example, I was speaking to someone who tithes but says that he gives 10 percent of his disposable income, which he considers after food and shelter. I know a couple in which one person tithes off gross and the other tithes off post-tax.
How about you?
If you prefer to email, I'm peter.henderson@thomsonreuters.com.

We were told that our taxes went to things that we used (like roads, goverment buildings, military, etc.) and therefore we had to pay taxes on the gross.

I think this is what most mormons believe/do. If someone starts paying on the after taxes income, then they are trying to cheat God (that is what we were taught).

So, when I was a college student I was advised to tithe on student loans or if you are given a gift of cash.

Cash gifts maybe I could understand, but loans? Hello, you're going to pay those back some day; they're not income.

It's pathetic, but common. The women on bbc are always asking about what to do with college loans and tithing and the answers is always the same: tithe on it. So pathetic, and probably illegal per the terms of the loan.

I remember having similar conversations as an 18 year old with my roommates at BYUI. It had never occurred to me to pay tithing on my grants and such until one of them mentioned it.

Most mormons I knew pretty much looked at it the same way.

And add 5% more for all the other CASH-COWS the church has (Fast Offering, Missionary Fund, etc, etc.). The absolutely despicable amount funds _returned_ to local Wards/Stakes for upkeep/activities represent <1% of the funds gathered from that same local ward.

Local Wards/Stakes can keep 0% of all funds gathered -- ALL donations must be sent to Salt Lake (as fast as possible) and then Salt Lake will then return the equivalent of a widows mite back to the ward/stake. You are never left to wonder who is in charge of the money.

I'm not sure how my parents paid tithing, whether it was on the gross or take-home pay. I don't know anybody who is a believing Mormon who only pays tithing on disposable income.

When I paid tithing, I would pay on my take-home pay. I would also pay on any tax refunds I got. I wouldn't pay on cash gifts, although my reasoning for that seems goofy now.

The Mormon church, to my knowledge, has not "officially" said that members should pay on gross income. However, they do unofficially encourage members to pay a full tithe, by equating blessings with tithing payment. For this reason, some members actually pay in excess of 10%, in return for more blessings. Ridiculous, but true.

It's also left up to your discretion, my guess is that more mormon's do a bit of creative accounting. The actual wording is 10% of your increase. So, some people take that to mean what they get in the bank after taxes, fica, medicare etc are removed. Others believe it's the gross.

When we were in the military and lived in military housing I remember one member saying she was glad she didn't have to pay tithing on their housing allowance anymore because they didn't get BHA, someone else argued that they should take into consideration the cost of living on base and pay 10% of that because it was an increase.

A Bishop isn't going to check your w-2 form, it's just the guilt that'll get you when you become OCD about every penny you made.

I have ALWAYS been taught that it was pre-anything, including tax, insurance, social security. Any income you get you pay 10% of it to the church. At one point I was even told that if the church (or family) gave you financial assistance to help pay the bills, that you should pay tithing on that as well... Though that may differ Bishop to Bishop.

See also from the LDS website teaching materials:

"1. A man once said, “I pay tithing on all my salary after deductions, since I don’t get the money that is taken for taxes.” Is he correct? (Tithing is one-tenth of all our interest or increase, before anything else is taken out. See D&C 119:4.)"
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=b2a6a41f6cc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

LDS Corp - through its local leaders - have always stated (as long as I have been a member, i.e., since the 1950s) that 10% of your INCREASE should be paid to their organization. For an hourly or salaried wage earner, we are taught that this is 10% of your gross income, before any deductions for anything else. Members are also taught that the tithing should be the first thing that you pay, even though (and especially when) there is not enough money to meet your basic needs. In those cases, you are taught that the lord will bless you so that your needs will magically be met somehow - just trust the lord and have faith. In those cases where one receives an inheritance, or proceeds from the sale of a home, 10% tithing is expected. There are local leaders who also tell students that they must pay 10% of the value of their scholarships while attending school. Those who are unemployed and receiving unemployment benefits, those who receive workmen's copmpensation, and those who are receiving food stamps are also expected to contribute 10% of the value of their benefits to the LDS Corp.

Members are taught that if one does not pay a full 10% on these "increases," one does not receive the expected "blessings" (and sometimes bad things happen in their lives), and there is also a penalty attached: only full tithe-payers are eligible to receive a "Temple Recommend" which is considered a symbol of one's faithfulness and purity. Such recommends are required for entrance to their temples, as well as eligibility to perform various actions and activities in the church, even to members of your own family (such as blessing your newborn baby, baptizing your 8-year-old son or daughter, etc.).

On a personal note: Local leaders told us that when we paid tithing on our gross income (before social security taxes were deducted), then we would not be expected or asked to pay tithing on the Social Security benefit payments when we retired. When my parents did retire, however, they continued to ask for (and demand, if they wanted a temple recommend) tithing payments from their Social Security checks. My mother was diagnosed with cancer when she was 62, and died when she was 65. At 62, she took early retirement and began collecting SocSec payments. The bishop would come by the house and visit her occasionally when she was bed-ridden, and accepted tithing payments from her while she lay dying. One day, my father came into her bedroom to see the bishop with his hand in my mother's purse, getting the money out for her so that she could cound out and give him tithing money. I'm sure that she had asked him to get the money from her purse, but - as my father said - "that didn't look right." My mother had better things to do than to worry about paying tithing, and the bishop should have attended more to her health and spiritual needs than be facilitating taking money from a dying person to feed the coffers of the Corporation.

It is clear to me that LDS Corp's main interest is in collecting as much revenue as possible from its members, and this culture of greed is transmitted down to the local leadership. In fact, when I was attending their sunday meetings, there would be a major talk, presentation, or lesson presented at least monthly, extoling the membership to pay a full tithe. LDS Corp and its members describe tithing as a "contribution." However, it is actually more of a "demad" and the methods used in collecting these funds borders on extortion.

We are taught and few disagree publicly that you pay tithing on pre-tax dollars...your gross pay. But privately friends will often tell how they really pay. For example one friend told me if they pay to other charities or do volunteer work for the church or any charity, they deduct that amount from what they would normally pay. Seems fair to me.

What I did was a bit different. I am a high earner. Not just from being a self-employed professional, but from investment income, rental income, etc. My wife paid tithing (on my behalf) only on the money she new about...what went into the bank from my pay check from the office. Which is really only about 20% of my total income, since I purposely took a low pay and withdrew the rest as dividends and deposited the whole thing in separate accounts. In fact if I really had paid on my gross income (found on your 1040 tax form), it would more than eat up my entire paycheck. So if my math is right, 10% of 20% is about 2%. So I got off pretty easy. I could live with that and feel I am doing my part. It was enough to cover paying for a part time building janitor (now they don't even pay janitors - it is assigned (cough)"volunteer" toilet cleaners from among the members) and the entire ward budget for a year. As someone said before, what each ward/congregation is given in operating budget is only a fraction (in my experience as a ward finance clerk < 1%)of what it collects and send to headquarters.

The official position of the church is that tithing is paid on your "increase". They then officially leave it up to individual interpretation.

However under the surface it is well understood that it is based on your gross, pre-tax income. Many cliches run amok such as "What do you want the Lord to bless you on?"

One exception is that the LDS church has officially stated that you are not to pay tithing on any winnings from gambling.

When you are making a LOT of money, 10% really hurts (poor things). As you may know, the local bishop determines how the tithing rules are applied, and he is a neighbor with a short term, part time, volunteer calling as bishop.

They asked every new bishop about ways to cut the cost. Finally one told them that they didn't have to pay tithing on capital gains or dividends as long as they reinvested. That news spread like wildfire in their rich ward.

And they never asked another bishop whether it was true. They truly didn't want to know.

The rich always find ways. That's why they are rich.

Also, Here's one of my "favorite" talks, which I'm still surprised that it's still posted:

Titled: "Tithing—a Commandment Even for the Destitute"

Some tidbits:
Starts off by comparing poor people to Scrooge, you know because they are withholding money.

'No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of “They can’t afford to” needs to be replaced with “They can’t afford not to.”'

'One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing.'


Talking about survivors of Hurricane Mitch in Central America.
'But how can you ask someone so destitute to sacrifice? President Hinckley knew that the food and clothing shipments they received would help them survive the crisis, but his concern and love for them went far beyond that. As important as humanitarian aid is, he knew that the most important assistance comes from God, not from man.'

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/04/tithing-a-commandment-even-for-the-destitute?lang=eng

So sounds like 10 pct of gross, but some people find ways around that. Interesting point from the church that Finally Free mentioned, quoting D&C:


"1. A man once said, “I pay tithing on all my salary after deductions, since I don’t get the money that is taken for taxes.” Is he correct? (Tithing is one-tenth of all our interest or increase, before anything else is taken out. See D&C 119:4.)"
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=b2a6a41f6cc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

The answer in parens clearly says it is off of gross, but the D&C quotation does not appear to me to have any such level of specificity. It just talks about one tenth of their interest. I take this as a small indication that the church is pushing for gross.

I'd still be interested to hear from more people about whether they went for gross...

>>So sounds like 10 pct of gross, but some people find ways around that.

Bingo.

So here's a "way around".

I work full time and don't believe. My wife works part time and believes. She makes maybe 1/20th of my income. She pays a full tithe on her income, I pay nothing on mine and she is considered a full tithe payer. And then she spends all my money ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2012 05:51PM by bc.

The closest I could come to an official statement was in a talk from Gordon B Hinckly stating:

"For many years, presidents of the Church have interpreted “interest” as “income.” Beyond that, they have not elaborated. That fourth verse consists of thirty-five words. Contrast that with the cumbersome and complex tax codes enacted and enforced by governments."
"The Sacred Law of Tithing" http://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/12/the-sacred-law-of-tithing

Note the mention that "interest" means "income". But that doesn't specify Gross or net income, the only "official" statement to that affect is in the teaching material I posted. Since the prophet has stated "income" people take it to mean any and all income, pre-tax. Some people will work around it, others have "interpreted" it themselves since there is no "official" stance, but it is understood to be 10%, pre-tax.

My Dad, who has been Ward Clerk on several occasions (and would would kill me if he knew I was talking about him on this board) stated that in order to cover themselves some people would even sign over 10% of their stocks to the church so that if the stock increased, it would automatically pay their tithing. It's crazy now that I look from the outside.

However, as many have pointed out, it isn't universally obeyed. Two stories to illustrate:

1. My father, a former bishop told me I shouldn't be paying tithing on the Vetrans benefits I was getting for school. Since it was tax money he didn't think I had the right to give it to the church but should respect its intended purpose and use it only for school expenses. I'm glad he gave me that advice becasue it made it possible for me to complete my degree. Many of the people I went to school with paid tithing on everything, including Pell Grants. This was at BYU....

2. A very confused lady once gave an odd talk in Sacrament meeting. It was obvious to me she was dealing with inner deamons. She had recently started a small buisiness cleaning offices. The problem was that her profit margin was pretty thin once she accounted for supplies, mileage and other expenses. If she were to pay tithing on her gross reciepts she would actually lose money. She spent a good 5 minutes justifying and explaining her failure to pay on the gross. She ended up declaring that paying on the gross would still be required for everybody working as an eployee but if you owned your own business then it's ok to exclude expenses first.

Meaning "It's okay unless there's a reason why it wouldn't be okay." Uh... yeah!

Was that really said, "Do you want gross or net blessings?"

Peter, we've had reports on this board that Mormons who are employed by the church (i.e. work at the COB or Church Office Building in SLC) can have their tithing deducted directly from their paychecks. Keep in mind that if they don't pay the 10% of gross, they lose their jobs. And the church knows exactly what they earn.

How that doesn't qualify as an illegal kick-back is beyond me.

We were always told to tithe on the gross.


Tithing was difficult enough, but tithing on the gross -- as high as taxes are nowadays -- was particularly difficult when me and my husband were younger and our family was young. But like fools, we actually payed on the gross.


One thing I would like to mention to you.


I didn't have much money at all when I was a college freshman and ran into the Mormon missionaries for the first time.


When the missionaries taught me, they conveniently omitted the issue of tithing.


So imagine my surprise, the week AFTER I was baptised, when I was approached about paying tithing!


I couldn't hardly afford to eat, and they were hitting me up about tithing before I'd even dried off.


This was in the mid 1970s. Long before the internet. Today, I would research the religion on the net before I joined it. And given what I would learn, I feel pretty certain I would not join again.


But back then, there was no internet. I was out in the mission field (the name we have for areas where Mormons are in a minority), so there was no place for me to learn about Mormon tithing other than from the missionaries -- or from the members in the ward I was about to join.


Neither bothered to tell me until AFTER I was dunked.


Believe it or not, I stayed in the church anyway. For almost 40 years.


And I am responsible for the fact that I stayed for so long, after I learned about tithing, the fact that blacks were denied the priesthood, and other things that the missionaries conveniently failed to teach me before I was baptised.


I don't blame anybody else for that.


But I do have to ask -- was it deceptive recruiting that the missionaries conveniently "forgot" to teach me about these things BEFORE I committed to the church?


And -- you check it out -- you will find that I am, by no means, the only convert who was never told these things until after they were dunked.

Peter,


Something I thought I'd mention, in order to be completely honest in my answer to you.


MOST of the time -- over a nearly 40 year period -- I paid on the gross.


But one time, I was asked to be the adult leader who brought the ward's teenage girls to Young Women's Camp. This is a five day camp that we have for teenagers in the church, ages 12 - 18. Our boys are strongly encouraged to become Boy Scouts, and so they spend a week at Scout Camp every summer. But we do not encourage our girls to join the Girl Scouts. Instead, we offer our girls a week of very religious oriented camp that we call "Young Women's Camp." Our girls are STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to go to this camp each year.


Our stake is one of the poorest stakes in the nation, and our ward is one of the poorest wards in that stake.


Salt Lake sends a small amount of money per child for each boy that goes to Scout Camp, and for each child who goes to Young Women's Camp. In addition, we are allowed a single fund raiser per year to help raise some additional funds for the kids camps.


Being a poor stake, funds were limited.


So our stake officials directed ALL available funds -- (best I can tell) both the funds from Salt Lake AND a good portion of the funds raised by the girls fundraiser -- TO THE BOYS SCOUT CAMP!


This meant that the ONLY camp grounds available for our Young Women's camp that year was a state campground that agreed to let our girls camp in its worst area, IF they did some work in return for their "free" camp site.


This was the deep south, mind you, in the latter part of June when temps were already tropical. And this area that the camp officials allowed our girls to squat in for free was in the bottom of a bowl -- surrounded on all sides by higher ground. This meant that the hot sun would beat down on the camp area all day, but no winds could hit even if there had been wind during that period, which insured that it would still be 90+ even at night when the girls were trying to go to sleep.


In addition, our ward -- being as poor as it was -- couldn't raise much in the line of funds to pay for the kids meals. Probably as many as half of the kids could not pay the basic fee to go to camp, so it was either leave them home or we'd have to stretch the few dollars we had even further.


Anyway, we just did not have enough money to feed our kids. To cut the stake's funding burden, we had only two communal meals (most YW camps have more), and so our ward had to feed our kids all the rest of the meals.


I ended up having to shell out the better part of the cost of feeding nearly two dozen teenage girls for much of the five days they were in camp.


That got to be pretty expensive, especially since my husband and I are normal people -- not rich folks like the Romneys.


I decided to keep the receipts, and since I couldn't turn them in to the bishop for reimbursement (there was no money to reimburse me), I decided -- in my own personal protest of the situation -- to use money that I would normally have paid into the tithing fund, to reimburse myself for the money I spent on groceries for the camp.


Now, you have to understand, when we pay money into the tithing fund, it is redirected OUT of our local wards and into the huge Salt Lake City coffers. And who knows what happens to it then? Used to build a luxury mall, perhaps?


So when I withheld funds from tithing to pay for the kids food, I was, in essence, holding back funds that would normally go to Salt Lake, to help subsidize our local teenage girls church camp.


And, BTW, at the end of the year, when I went into Tithing Settlement and the Bishop asked me and my husband if we paid a full and honest tithing, I boldly answered "YES!"


Looking back now, I wish I'd withheld all of the money I paid over the years to fulfill church assignments, from my tithing payments, the way I did with camp expenses that year.


But I'll tell you this -- TSCC will never get another penny of mine!


Now, I direct my 10% to REAL CHARITIES -- the local food bank, the Salvation Army, a local senior citizen's center, and I'm about to donate a few hundred dollars to St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.


Real charities that serve REAL people.


No more money to a FAKE charity, like TSCC's luxury mall and hunting preserves.

I'm really curious about the interpretation of "increase" as "income." If that's just one idea rather than absolute truth, then paying tithing only on disposible income would be totally fine, because after taxes and bills require for survival (food, shelter, bla bla), the rest would be the increase, right? What's going to keep you surviving could hardly be considered an increase.

'supposedly' if you paid on your Gross wages/income... when U retired, you wouldn't have to pay on the SS (other retirement savings?) that your income provided.

makes sense, But:

LDS supposed to 'keep track' of how much they paid in? How much they 'drew out'?

what about after your benefits exceeded your contributions?
what about the employer contributions?

details, details, DETAILS make or break these deals if U let them.

There was always some smartass with the quick comeback, "Do you want gross or net blessings?" The implication was if you didn't pay on your gross salary then God was going to give you cancer or something worse.

I was always taught to pay 10% gross. And I did throughout all of my 47 years as a member. I only stopped paying 10% gross tithing when I no longer believed.

My wife received child support from her ex-husband. We asked our bishop if we should pay tithing on that. He said it was up to us, but that we would receive extra blessings if we did. So, we started paying tithing on child support.

In the church, whenever someone in authority gives you a choice, but says you'll receive extra blessings if you do something, if you are a faithful member, you always do that something to receive the extra blessings. It is very mind-controlling.

Isn't child support supposed to go towards the maintence of the child? Can't parents get in trouble legality wise if they're found to be spending child support on other things instead of life-maintence for the child?

It's heaveily enforced on paying the tithing on the gross inside the LDS.

I remember clearly that a stake president explained about the notion about tithing on the gross (full) or on the net (after taxes). He says that the "Church" officially leave it up to individual interpretation. BUT, do you prefer to obtain your blessings in "gross" (full) or in "net" (partial)?

It's just another passive-agressive way from the church corporation to milk more money from its members.

Also, in the stake from the previos mentioned stake president, a member can be refused to obtain its temple recommend if the person doesn't pay his tithing on gross. That means simply if you don't tithe on the gross, you are not allow to go to the temple! I don't know if this situation happened in other stake...

Maybe peter would also be interested, for a future article, about the tithing of time, and I mean the ridiculous stuff like the every memeber a janitor mandate.

I paid on gross minus Social Security and Medicare with the intention of paying tithing on Social Security when I received it.

We paid on gross, My husband still does on his earnings, I stopped paying. My father paid on whatever was left after bills were paid. The church has an end of year accounting with all members called "tithing settlement." Members declare to their bishop if they paid a full tithing for the year, paying a full tithing is required to attain a temple recommend. I attended one of these with my parents when I was about 14. My dad reported that he had paid full tithing and the bishop called him a liar. The bishop expected 10% of gross and he said no one could live on the amount of money my dad was claiming. Not all bishops are the same, some are jerks.