http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/12/10/utah.smart.family/index.html?hpt=T2

"It's subject to change"... these are the first words out of Ed Smart's mouth in regards to Elizabeth aspirations of becoming a prosecutor.

I know for a mormon parent, it would be shameful to have a daughter go to law school and actually work as a lawyer...but in the real world, most people would be proud to have such a daughter.

The more I read about this case, the more impressed I am w/Elizabeth, and the more disgusted I become w/Ed and Lois.

It's pretty clear that they are trying to stear their daughter into an acceptable mormon future. Elizabeth seems to have different ideas, but is she strong willed enough to win?

There's nothing wrong with a Mormon woman being a prosecutor.

It was probably just Ed's failed wit.

MY TBM female friend has a a law degree. I don't see that it is a problem for most Mormons. My TBM mom told me she did not want me to even consider getting married until I had a college degree. That was the attitude of most of the parents of my friends.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2010 02:35PM by bona dea.

Ed probably wants her to be a SAHM married to the son of an apostle and a celebrity on the fireside speaker circut.

I had read bits and pieces of it before, but was reading it more extensively last evening. It is painful to read. Elizabeth must be an immensely strong person to not only withstand her treatment by her captors, but to spend days on the witness stand recounting her torture in excruciating detail.

The prosecutor who tried her case must be a hero to her.

she'll end up being nothing but another Mormon dingbat.

Some things never change, and some people never wise up.

I'd say she's pretty strong. I'm thinking she's plenty strong enough to forge her own course. I'm hoping, for her sake, that it's out of the church. I believe that would be healthiest for her. :)

I would say, "I want to be a Doctor"... and my mom would say, "Well, things may change... you may get married and have kids and not finish Med school".

It pisses me off because I think I was set up for failure. I was a very intelligent kid, but was discouraged from setting education goals. I see that happening here and it pisses me off.

Tauna, I know exactly what you mean. I was told my whole life I was not "college material" and I better find a good man to take care of me because I'd never make it on my own. I hope Elizabeth Smart becomes an attorney and shoves it in her dad's face later.

because I think he's ridiculous, but I also think you're reading an awful lot into this one little comment. You can't tell from a written story when it was said, or in response to what question. It's not like someone asked Elizabeth what she wants to do, and she said, "Be a prosecutor," and Ed jumped in with "That's subject to change." That's what I was envisioning based on your post, before I clicked on the link.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2010 12:37PM by munchybotaz.

He did follow up with that "once she gets it in her mind..." comment.

To me it sounds as if he's just saying she's not certain yet.

With her GLOWING and all!

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,53069

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50849318-75/mitchell-smart-trial-verdict.html.csp



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2010 04:26PM by Fetal Deity.

I am a lawyer. Every time someone comes to me saying, I am going to law school, do you have any advice, my response is "What are you thinking!?" Most respond with opens up career opportunities, good paying job, prestige, etc. I give these people a reality check: Getting a law degree now usually means $150,000+ debt with very little possibility of getting the $160,000+ salary you'll need to pay it back. If you are "lucky" enough to get such a job, you'll be selling your soul to the firm for the next 20 years.

With Elizabeth, though, I suspect her answer would be different. As someone said above, her prosecuters are most likely her heroes now, and she'd be a great prosecuter. She has been speaking out on behalf of victims at least since 2006. She is very well spoken and has proven her ability to keep her calm in court under very trying circumstances. She would undoubtedly be passionate, a key requirement for both prosecuting and defense attorneys.

Prosecuters don't make much, though, no where near enough to pay off the debts. Which is where BYU comes in. Church being true or not, BYU offers a quality legal education for a dirt cheap price, which they'll probably waive for Elizabeth. Of course many schools would probably offer her scholarships to get her, because her perspective is unique.

As for Ed, it may just be that he doesn't want his daughter locking herself into anything in such an emotional moment. Otherwise, every reporter will be asking about it for the indefinite future. That was not likely his intent, but it will get the press off her back.

The complete quote from the story: "It's subject to change," Ed Smart told HLN's Jane Velez-Mitchell on Friday, about his daughter's plans to become a lawyer. "But usually when she gets a thought in her mind, she sticks to it."

Based on this, the "subject to change" is all about giving Elizabeth an out, and nothing to do with her staying in Utah and making babies. In fact, the article implied that she would not want to work for the state of Utah, because they couldn't get the conviction. If she follows through, she has a very good chance of leaving the state.

I know this is an unpopular opinion on the board, but I'm impressed with how well the Smarts have handled everything. While the psychological trauma will never completely heal, she seems to have made amazing progress. A lot of that was probably helped by her making the move that ultimately led to her discovery, convincing Mitchell to come back to Salt Lake, as well as by her testifying. But her family has been right there, supporting her.

Simply Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The complete quote from the story: "It's subject
> to change," Ed Smart told HLN's Jane
> Velez-Mitchell on Friday, about his daughter's
> plans to become a lawyer. "But usually when she
> gets a thought in her mind, she sticks to it."
>
> Based on this, the "subject to change" is all
> about giving Elizabeth an out, and nothing to do
> with her staying in Utah and making babies. In
> fact, the article implied that she would not want
> to work for the state of Utah, because they
> couldn't get the conviction. If she follows
> through, she has a very good chance of leaving the
> state.
>
> I know this is an unpopular opinion on the board,
> but I'm impressed with how well the Smarts have
> handled everything. While the psychological trauma
> will never completely heal, she seems to have made
> amazing progress. A lot of that was probably
> helped by her making the move that ultimately led
> to her discovery, convincing Mitchell to come back
> to Salt Lake, as well as by her testifying. But
> her family has been right there, supporting her.

I just read the entire article and I have to say that I really doubt that the naysayers have done so. Talk about taking a quote out of context.

She had always said her love was music. Perhaps her father thinks she may go back to that when the emotions of the moment die down. I agree that some of you are making too much of one comment. It could also mean that Elizabeth has a history or changing her mind. Who knows? At any rate, she is an adult and can choose her own career. BTW, Ed's sister is a doctor. The family doesn't seem to have a problem with her and that isn't a typical female job either.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2010 07:42PM by bona dea.

I realize that her family wants to protect her, but it bothers me that she is in her twenties and they are still speaking on her behalf as if she were a minor. At 23, she is old enough to communicate her life's plans without commentary from her family. I don't think Ed Smart's intentions are bad (he did follow the comment with "But usually when she gets a thought in her mind, she sticks to it.") but it should go without saying that a young person can change their mind about their life's work and I think Elizabeth is capable of deciding what she wants the world to know about herself.

Maybe a rigorous education and law career could help her assert herself in the world and make her life her own. I admire her resilience in the face of everything she has been through and I sincerely hope she can go on to live a rewarding life of her own design without media interference.

It could be they are speaking on her behalf. But, it could also be, Why don't you and everyone else go home and celebrate; I'll handle the press.

I know I'm coming off as the Smarts's biggest defenders, but given what they've been through and how well Elizabeth is doing,
I think they've earned the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that Elizabeth is functional, strong, courageous and stand up well to pressure is a testimony to the family's work at helping her heal. I'm impressed with how well she (and they) have handled this -- and very happy for Elizabeth. :)

She did make some comments on her own and perhaps she doesn't want to go on the talk shows right now. For one thing, she is going back to Paris in a few days. I suspect she is busy with packing and saying her goodbyes and doesn't want to talk about the subject any more. If she was giving interviews, someone would say that her parents are exploiting her.The Smarts are going to be criticized by some posters no matter what they do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2010 07:43PM by bona dea.

She has a desire to prosecute criminals to support victims.
If that is what she wants to do, she'll do it.

I doubt anyone would be finding fault and criticizing and nit picking the Smart family if they were not so angry and hateful toward Mormons in general. Seems like a Mormon can't do anything correct/proper/right in some former Mormon's minds. I find that appalling.

I respect and honor that family. They are amazing.

I can't respect and honour the Smarts, simply because of Ed Smart. He's a total floozie. He apparently has led a double life and went overboard with paradeing his daughter around on the media.

I'm guessing that Elizabeth didn't get actual professional counselling, only Mormon counselling... but that she's naturally fighting back in her own way, to deal with all she's been through, with the possible legal aspiration. Good for her!

You're "guessing" wrong about her "counseling." I can't mention sources but she got trauma therapy by a non Mormon. I know people involved in the periphery. That's all I can say. But I find it appalling how people "guess" she didn't get the correct kind of therapy. Her family is not stupid. Her grandfather was a renouned medical doctor, her aunt is a pediatrician, etc. They are not as ignorant/stupid as people imply.

How do you think she put the shame of what happened behind her so that she can stand proud without shame?

The man said he saw her looking at law school applications and that when she gets something in her head she's determined. I'm with Simply, as her father, he was proud of her new idea to become a prosecutor but didn't seem to want to make the media believe it's written in stone. To me it seems he's giving her the flexibility to do whatever she wants and the right to change her mind without feeling everyone placed huge expectations on making her into a prosecutor now.

I'm sure she'll change her mind! I too am a lawyer and it's not a great career for people who are otherwise more creative and artistic (as she is). Plus for someone whose been through so much trauma, the last thing she will need in her life is to be hostage to a job where she can't get away from reliving trauma or reliving the injustices people do to others.

She's a beautiful person. I hope she finds her career somewhere else but continues to speak out for victims as she is doing--with freedom not to do so on days when its too hard.

And I do defend Ed Smart. He loves his child and has provided a safe emotional place for her. So many fathers are emotionally disconnected from their children. I see him as a very loving dad. So he's Mormon? He's a victim of Mormonism just as we once were. Yes, his brain is pickled by Mormonism.

But he has done all the other things right--not shaming his daughter for being raped, not asking her to be modest and not speak of the details, not embarassed to use words like "sex predator" in the media, not telling her to hide in shame, helping her rebuild her own image as a "glowing" strong amazing person to replace her own image of herself tied to a tree, raped, bleeding, crying, vomiting.

Leave this man and his family alone. Really it's so shameful to criticize a family that is a victim of something so horrible.

was talking about his wife once. She went to law school but quit working full time when their second daughter was born. The guy went on and on about how "It was OK that my wife went to law school because it taught her to organize her thinking better and run our household more efficiently. I see her training as a good thing." It was quite clear though, despite his words, that he was a little embarrassed to have a wife that went to law school and worked as a lawyer, instead of getting married at twenty and popping out babies to support his image as the perfect Mormon male. He was obviously excusing her odd behavior, or maybe it's the fact that she's still cheeky enough to do a little legal consulting on the side of a local firm. Either way, she stepped out of the mold and he didn't like it much, almost like he was ashamed by it.

Maybe Ed wants his daughter to have a normal, peaceful life - by his definition of normal. It probably came across weird but I agree that he's probably just trying to protect her by steering her into what his culture view as normal - she's been through too much abnormal. Being a woman lawyer isn't abnormal by most standards but maybe it is by Ed's and he's just being overcautious.

Ed Smart INVITED that psycho Mitchell to do yardwork at his home. That way Ed could show off his philanthropic ways. That gave Mitchell plenty of opportunities to ogle the Smart daughters and learn the layout of the house. He kidnapped Elizabeth from her bed!
When Polly Klass was kidnapped, also from her room, her murderer stalked her and studied her home. It's amazing and against the odds that Elizabeth survived. Ed Smart could have contributed money to a homeless shelter rather than bring a potentially unstable stranger home to be around his kids . ZERO common sense!!!

Anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ed Smart INVITED that psycho Mitchell to do
> yardwork at his home. That way Ed could show off
> his philanthropic ways. That gave Mitchell plenty
> of opportunities to ogle the Smart daughters and
> learn the layout of the house. He kidnapped
> Elizabeth from her bed!
> When Polly Klass was kidnapped, also from her
> room, her murderer stalked her and studied her
> home. It's amazing and against the odds that
> Elizabeth survived. Ed Smart could have
> contributed money to a homeless shelter rather
> than bring a potentially unstable stranger home to
> be around his kids . ZERO common sense!!!

I agree that it wasn't a great idea, but the Smarts have paid for it. BTW, if you read their book, they say Mitchell worked in the yard and on the roof. He never entered the inside of the home and neither did any other homeless people. It may not be smart, but other people have done similar things and have been luckier. My dad was often helped the down and out and let them do odd jobs outside.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2010 07:44PM by bona dea.

I agree with Anon on this but with a few comments: it was Lois who invited Mitchell to come to their home and work. He was on the street panhandling and she asked a homeless guy with a completely unknown background into her home. Where she has young girls. Why would she do that?

When you are raised in a subculture (which Mormonism is) of American culture, there are differences. We know them well here--we joke about them, curse them, etc. Well, one of the differences is that there are not normal borders of privacy. We here stories of ward teachers walking into a person's house WITHOUT EVEN KNOCKING, let alone calling. This is not done in normal American society. People are asked if they are "happy"--again, too personal. People are told to give to the institution and let them give to the poor - so the average Mormon has no idea of how to relate to a beggar.

You never, never, never bring them home. If you are working with prisoners, you never tell them where you live or give them your phone number (remember that poor woman who helped that prisoner and when he got out, he looked her up and killed her in Sandy?)

The other day I witnessed what looked to me like a kidnapping. I drove straight to the police department and reported everything I saw. My daughter said, why didn't you just come back in my house and call the police from here. DUH! You don't lead kidnappers to your family!!!

Mormons want to look generous and I've seen them engaging in extensive conversations with panhandlers. And I'm sure many of them are struggling with what's the right thing to do--give money? Buy 'em a sandwich? Point to the welfare office (like they're an idiot palm/forehead?)

Ed Smart was taught to rely on leadership, to cooperate. He is obviously doing the best he can. After all, he doesn't want to embarrass Elizabeth by saying what we're all thinking, which is,

"Where the F*CK was the Salt Lake Police Dept while my daughter was walking around f*ing SANDY, fer Christ's sake! No wonder we can't find Osama bin Ladin, we can't even find a teenager wearing a burka in Sandy who stands out like a SORE THUMB. Assholes."

He's unpolished all right, but he's not a professional PR firm and aren't we sick of them? THe only shtick I see on him is common to all TBMs. And don't we hate it that we were that way once ourselves?



Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Anon on this but with a few comments:
> it was Lois who invited Mitchell to come to their
> home and work. He was on the street panhandling
> and she asked a homeless guy with a completely
> unknown background into her home. Where she has
> young girls. Why would she do that?
>
> When you are raised in a subculture (which
> Mormonism is) of American culture, there are
> differences. We know them well here--we joke
> about them, curse them, etc. Well, one of the
> differences is that there are not normal borders
> of privacy. We here stories of ward teachers
> walking into a person's house WITHOUT EVEN
> KNOCKING, let alone calling. This is not done in
> normal American society. People are asked if they
> are "happy"--again, too personal. People are told
> to give to the institution and let them give to
> the poor - so the average Mormon has no idea of
> how to relate to a beggar.
>
> You never, never, never bring them home. If you
> are working with prisoners, you never tell them
> where you live or give them your phone number
> (remember that poor woman who helped that prisoner
> and when he got out, he looked her up and killed
> her in Sandy?)
>
> The other day I witnessed what looked to me like a
> kidnapping. I drove straight to the police
> department and reported everything I saw. My
> daughter said, why didn't you just come back in my
> house and call the police from here. DUH! You
> don't lead kidnappers to your family!!!
>
> Mormons want to look generous and I've seen them
> engaging in extensive conversations with
> panhandlers. And I'm sure many of them are
> struggling with what's the right thing to do--give
> money? Buy 'em a sandwich? Point to the welfare
> office (like they're an idiot palm/forehead?)
>
> Ed Smart was taught to rely on leadership, to
> cooperate. He is obviously doing the best he can.
> After all, he doesn't want to embarrass Elizabeth
> by saying what we're all thinking, which is,
>
> "Where the F*CK was the Salt Lake Police Dept
> while my daughter was walking around f*ing SANDY,
> fer Christ's sake! No wonder we can't find Osama
> bin Ladin, we can't even find a teenager wearing a
> burka in Sandy who stands out like a SORE THUMB.
> Assholes."
>
> He's unpolished all right, but he's not a
> professional PR firm and aren't we sick of them?
> THe only shtick I see on him is common to all
> TBMs. And don't we hate it that we were that way
> once ourselves?
>
>
>
> Anagrammy

I agree that it wasn't a good idea, but I don't think it is necessarily a Mormon thing. My never Mo dad who wasn't at all fond of the Morg or religious did the same thing.We were luckier than the Smarts.

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Anon on this but with a few comments:
> it was Lois who invited Mitchell to come to their
> home and work. He was on the street panhandling
> and she asked a homeless guy with a completely
> unknown background into her home. Where she has
> young girls. Why would she do that?
>
> When you are raised in a subculture (which
> Mormonism is) of American culture, there are
> differences. We know them well here--we joke
> about them, curse them, etc. Well, one of the
> differences is that there are not normal borders
> of privacy. We here stories of ward teachers
> walking into a person's house WITHOUT EVEN
> KNOCKING, let alone calling. This is not done in
> normal American society. People are asked if they
> are "happy"--again, too personal. People are told
> to give to the institution and let them give to
> the poor - so the average Mormon has no idea of
> how to relate to a beggar.
>
> You never, never, never bring them home. If you
> are working with prisoners, you never tell them
> where you live or give them your phone number
> (remember that poor woman who helped that prisoner
> and when he got out, he looked her up and killed
> her in Sandy?)
>
> The other day I witnessed what looked to me like a
> kidnapping. I drove straight to the police
> department and reported everything I saw. My
> daughter said, why didn't you just come back in my
> house and call the police from here. DUH! You
> don't lead kidnappers to your family!!!
>
> Mormons want to look generous and I've seen them
> engaging in extensive conversations with
> panhandlers. And I'm sure many of them are
> struggling with what's the right thing to do--give
> money? Buy 'em a sandwich? Point to the welfare
> office (like they're an idiot palm/forehead?)
>
> Ed Smart was taught to rely on leadership, to
> cooperate. He is obviously doing the best he can.
> After all, he doesn't want to embarrass Elizabeth
> by saying what we're all thinking, which is,
>
> "Where the F*CK was the Salt Lake Police Dept
> while my daughter was walking around f*ing SANDY,
> fer Christ's sake! No wonder we can't find Osama
> bin Ladin, we can't even find a teenager wearing a
> burka in Sandy who stands out like a SORE THUMB.
> Assholes."
>
> He's unpolished all right, but he's not a
> professional PR firm and aren't we sick of them?
> THe only shtick I see on him is common to all
> TBMs. And don't we hate it that we were that way
> once ourselves?
>
>
>
> Anagrammy

The family has been quite critical of the SLPD due to the fact that they refused to look for Mitchell and still considered Richard Ricci to be the kidnapper right up to the end. Mitchell's children and the U of U football team were out searching homeless shelters for Mitchell because the police couldn't be bothered. After all, Ricci did it and they knew it. Ed's brother wrote an excellent book on the investigation and lets the police have it. In fact, the LAPD bought up a number of copies for their detectives to use as the way NOT to investigate a kidnapping.

Good- I feel glad that some good will come of the botched investigation. I know so many cases where victim's families have complained that the police got fixated on one possible perp and stopped looking for others.

Anagrammy

I agree with anagrammy & Bona, but I might be more cautious now than before. Are mormons less attuned to boundaries than other cultures (sub or otherwise?) The census taker was interrogating some neighborhood kids about the comings & goings of people on our street. I lost it. The kids were 6 to 11, no adults were around. The guy was a new imigrant and thought it was ok to approach kids I guess. I told him that he is not allowed to do that. He was confused and complained that people weren't cooperating. I called the cops, who found him and reiterated what I'd said and he stopped coming around. The kids know me, and I told them that if an adult approaches them to yell, run and get inside. They didn't know it wasn't ok to talk with this guy (he had an ID badge and all). Their parents never discuss boundaries with them.

It will be interesting, but I hope that Elizabeth Smart can break free of the Mormon mental stranglehold and become a voice for freedom from religion and its abuses.
The history of the Mormon faith is one of violence and intimidation. I hope that she can break free. I will not be surprised if a UofU educated Elizabeth Smart comes out as a lesbian and basically sticks the finger at her stage-hog of a father (who brought Mitchell into her world in the first place) and indicts the whole Mormon enterprise. Or she may take the coward/easy route and hook up with the first wealthy, nice guy who happens to be a Mormon and thus perpetuating the stupidity.

lawyer. she finished law school, took the bar, and popped out her first child 2 weeks later and became a SAHM. seriously, she has NEVER practiced law outside of some internships when she was in school. she is silly enough to think that a firm will hire her when their youngest is in high school, after she has done nothing with a degree for several years! i know several nevermo female lawyers, many of them worked at least part-time while they were raising kids or took a break for awhile after several years of fulltime working.

we were still TBM when she graduated and we were so upset about it, her hubby makes almost nothing being a low end accountant and we were thinking he would be the SAHD and she could work so they could survive ok. we were thinking, "if that was our daughter we would say, "ok, i would like the 100k we spent on your education back please."