I am new to this board and very interested in Mormon doctrin first, because someone I cared for has decided to become mormon and second, because we may have a Mormon pres on our hands soon - lol. I've been doing a lot of reading and must say that what I've found is fascinating... I'm stunned that so many believe what the Mormon church teaches, but I guess that could be said for many faiths. What is particularly of interest is how easily women of the church accept (or at least appear to accept) their submissive roles within their families, yet seem to put on a very happy and seemingly healthy face everyday. Anyway... back on topic...

I used to know a young man some years ago that was extremely misogynistic. I eventually found out that he had been raised in an extremely abusive household in his earliest and most formative years -- his biological mother abandoned him in his toddler years, the new woman who married his father (step mother) physically and mentally abused him horribly and his father essentially sat back and allowed it all to happen. Suffice it to say, this man has a horrible view of women yet very much needed a woman's approval. During a brief period of time of knowing him, I found him to be manipulative (only with women), extremely judgmental (of women), condescending (towards women) -- -- all of this in a seemingly non-chalant low key way, but none-the-less an overall woman hater. Well -- he couldn't seem to keep a girlfriend for longer than a week (big surprise) for a very several years... then he dated an older Mormon woman who introduced him to Mormonism. He has since met another Mormon woman and married her. I can't help but wonder (since he swore off of marriage) if he primarily married this woman because she was submissive to his wants and needs and he knew that for as long as he and she were part of the faith that he would always be in control.

What do you think about this? Have you all found men who joined the Mormon church because the thought of having so much control over women was too intoxicating to pass up? I think this man that I once knew was so fearful of having a woman have any control over his life and emotions that he jumped on the biggest "woman submissive" bandwagon he could hitch a ride on. Sound realistic anyone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2012 08:28PM by christine243.

Definitely! In fact as a BIC female who had no choice to be there, I recall never once being attracted to a Mormon boy. They're arrogant. The church teaches them they are entitled. I can see this is a big selling point for misogynistic men. It feeds them their drug of choice --narcissistic supply...

Hard to know whether the mormon church breeds misogynists or attracts them, probably both. And trust me, it's very hard for many of us former BIC mormon women to even understand how a woman can stay in that organization under the submissive expectations and the total control of men. My father hates women, although he'd never admit that. He just wanted to get his girls pawned off on some other control freak and be rid of them so he could focus on getting the boys through college. But you learn to turn it off (like a light bulb--just go click, it's our nifty little mormon trick), when things like that start eating away at you. Take a little extra Prozac and you're good to go.

...when I read the Bible- yeah, I still try to do that once in awhile- and it sure does seem like God actively dislikes women. Especially women like me. I'm going to hell because I never could have a baby [1 Tim.2:15].

I can't answer for what appeals to men about mormonism, and I don't know the people you're referring to, obviously, but your theory has some merit.

I was dating this guy whose mom is rather overbearing. Nice woman, just a little bit controlling (I've met far worse -- she really isn't that bad). The guy was very passive and claimed to love women. I am suspicious of men who say that sometimes. We were friends first and I'd listen to him talk about past girlfriends and his words weren't ugly, but he'd get this twisted look of disgust and hatred on his face when he talked about how they'd hurt him. The entire time we dated, he would not kiss me during sex. And he never allowed eye contact. Both of those things promote bonding and he would not allow us to bond to each other. He was so terrified of committment and I think it's because, in his mind, when a woman loves you, he thinks that means she thinks she owns you. He dates women causally for a while and when they begin to develop feelings for him (despite the no kissing and no eye contact rules), he dumps them. While he's not controlling or dominant in any way, he won't allow a woman to get close enough to him to have a deep, healthy, loving relationship. I feel a bit sorry for him because he's missing out on a whole lot of love and joy he could be experiencing, but he's so afraid that a woman will try to take control of his life, he won't allow himself to be open and vulnerable to someone who he trusts and who loves him. In short, I eventually decided he was an idiot who doesn't deserve me. ;>)

Anyway, I saw the same pattern of behavior that you laid out in your post: manipulative, judgemental, condescending, and desperately seeking female approval. His hatred of women is not obvious and he knows the right words to say so that it appears that he likes women, but it's clear from observing his behavior over time that he hates/fears women. And I think this hatred very much stems from a deep-seated fear that women will take control or try to control him. 'Cause that's what his Mama does.

If it ain't one thing, it's your mother!

From the previous post and this one, I have been trying to work out a few thoughts myself. My BIC husband has shared some ideas he was taught as a BIC teen. Previously (brain on LDS) I thought they were good teachings, keeping him wholesome, pure, and protected from sin. Now I think they taught him to equate women with sex, and not in a healthy way: Don't kiss a girl unless you mean to marry her because the only thing kissing will do is to lead you to fornication. If you are thinking or feeling sexual things that is bad - which I can't help but infer that if girls make you think/feel sexually, they must be bad too. Fast forward many years and we are out of the morg, but I see these ideas popping up when we observe our children. Our son is a teen, previously had one girlfriend, but has many friends who are girls. If our son is hanging out with a girl it seeems to me that my husband assumes it is all about sex. To me, most of the girls my son hangs with are friends, like sisters, and I really don't think there are many sex thoughts/acts going on. My husband almost denies that this can be possible.

As a teen my experience with boys was often that of surprise - you just met me and you want to do that? Slow the hell down. It made me feel worthless (they don't like ME, they like what they think I can do for them) and gave me the idea that boys were only out for one thing. It affected me later because I associated sex with "being used". I don't want that for my daughters.

For both of us I see that our teachings/experience led us to view others that we were attracted to as sexual objects. As in the sexual aspect eclipsed almost everything else - girls were evil and would tempt you sin, boys used you to gratify their desires. I'd like to see this trend stopped in my own family. I want my kids to have a healthy view about sex, a respect for those they are attracted to, the ability to protect themselves but not equate sex with their personal worth. Any ideas?

goatsgotohell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> As a teen my experience with boys was often that
> of surprise - you just met me and you want to do
> that? Slow the hell down. It made me feel
> worthless (they don't like ME, they like what they
> think I can do for them) and gave me the idea that
> boys were only out for one thing. .....
>
> For both of us I see that our teachings/experience
> led us to view others that we were attracted to as
> sexual objects. As in the sexual aspect eclipsed
> almost everything else - girls were evil and would
> tempt you sin, boys used you to gratify their
> desires. I'd like to see this trend stopped in my
> own family.



This attitude, that women are just objects and men have limited culpability for failing to control their sexual impulses toward them, is something I've only encountered with Mormon men.

I was recently lectured, repeatedly, in very 1950's fashion, by an oh-so-worthy, garment-wearing Penishood holder that "men and women are different", when I let him have it for trying to jump all over me the moment he got me alone and lying about the fact that he has a GF (" I didn't lie, I just left something out" LOL). He talked down to me like I was a naive 12yo girl going to her first dance. He maintained that his behavior was part of his "role" as the male, and I was silly and naive to expect a man to be able to control himself when such an opportunity arises, and even sillier to be offended by it.

Wow. These responses are interesting and have validated what I pretty much knew in my heart. Very sad. I also had read that Mormon women have a pretty high incidence of anti-depressant use compared to the general American population because there is so much pressure for them to be perfect and submissive all of the time. My God -- so sad!

Another thing I'd like to ask... I've noticed that many (not all) Mormon women dye their hair blond. Is there some reason for this? While many women dye their hair blond, I've never seen a group of religious women do so in such a high frequency as Mormon women, or am I off on this?

I noticed that too, but only when I visited Utah. In Utah, everyone is blonde, and as a brunette, I stick out like a sore thumb.

A lot of them dye it to enhance their already blonde base, just taking the rest of the way to platinum. A lot of them are natural towheads...

It begs the questions, are they trying to become "white and delightsome" or has the Mormon gene pool gotten so small that brunettes were bred out? I think it's a bit of both. It was a bit alarming because the rest of the country, the average person is brunette. Not Utah. Most people are very blonde. Some so blonde that their skin gets that pinkish tint, like they're on the evolution route to becoming redheads...very interesting and weird.

I remember hearing about how, shortly after my parents converted to Mormonism, my dad used his "god-given" role as patriarch of the home to control my mom however possible. For example, she wasn't allowed to wear pants (only "modest" dresses) or the color red anymore (since it's a "whore" color). My mom also went through a phase where she honestly believed her prayers were worth less than my dad's because she didn't hold the priesthood.

Eventually, he let up with controlling what she wore. My mom still defends his behavior by saying he was just learning to be a good priesthood leader, but it made me sick every time she talked about it.

My dad also talked about how he would play up the "head of the household" aspect to the husbands of families looking into Mormonism, and was pleased to share that a lot of guys were really happy with the prospect of having that kind of control over their wives and kids.

Honestly, I can't stand my dad's attitudes toward women. He tends to leave dirty dishes and empty cans lying around because he expects my mom and I to clean up after him. He also took me aside several times growing up so he could explain my "place" as a woman. It was a huge mind!@$* because I disagreed with it at my core, but forced myself to believe that my dad knew what was best for me. I restrained my ambitions in school and didn't aim as high as I would have if I'd been allowed to just be a human being.

The worst part is that my mother is furious that I can no longer be part of a religion that doesn't even bother to hide its ugly patriarchy. She hates that I'm no longer apart of the Relief Society because it makes her even more insecure about her worth as a woman. In her mind, though, her insecurities are because she's defective somehow, not because the system is flawed.

"I love patriarchy," she told me once, and it broke my heart to hear it.

Not saying all Mormons are like this. To be honest, I'm pretty sure my parents fell into the more extreme side of the spectrum about a lot of stuff, even by Mormon standards. This was my experience, though, so I thought I would share. Thanks.