Today on the feminist Mormon housewives facebook page, a woman named "Brook" said this...""when I say that women were treated with double speak we were told how "good" and "wonderful" the sisters were in the same speech that told the elders to stay away from women because we're all harlots".

YES!!! The church is ALWAYS thinking the WORST of women! Anything else is lip service. In their minds we were always wanting to have sex with them, seduce them, destroy their lives. This was the ENTIRE message as a teen. They didn't see us as anything by sexual beings and therefore we were resigned to Primary, RS and the home...where we belong. Misogyny is alive and well to this day.

Just today I finally broke through and realized that I have NEVER ONE DAY felt loved by anyone in the church, but especially the men. It was sex, always sex. We were not allowed to actually be female, feminine, nurturing, because if we did we were "harlots", "sluts" and if we showed kindness and mercy to men, then obviously we wanted sex with them. They wouldn't let us be humans, be friends. It was always sex.

This is disgusting. So the girls saw the guys as bloody control freaks, and the boys saw the girls as harlots. Great for the self esteem of both sexes. This is not one damn good thing about this church. Not one.

the 'true' aspects of caring, loving relationships are AWOL in Mormon culture. They've been forced out of the picture, individually and collectively by the way things are measured & rewarding in Morland:

Obedience

deference to Authority

Blind Obedience

Ambiguity & half-truths/half lies.

focus on the Outward Appearances, get-rich-quick schemes.



instead of Healthy:

self-esteem, self-respect.

unconditional aspects of healthy relationships:

trust & respect, Mercy & Compassion, Honesty, etc.


Mormondumb is like a group of stockholders who can't see beyond the next financial statements.

P.S.: If it were 'true' blatant HATRED, it would be dis-owned soon if not immediately. Instead, it's subtle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 12:03AM by guynoirprivateeye.

...sitting in class week after week hearing about the gender roles and thinking "surely they don't really believe this. When I grow up it will be different, suddenly I'll see this whole Christ/respect/joy that everyone says is the big reward for living this lifestyle, and the girls would choose to be mothers if they wanted to, but they could be astronauts too, it was up to them."

Imagine my surprise when I grew up and saw that the judgement, the pressure to conform and obey was ALL there was. There ws NO joy, ever. Even at ward corn feeds there were screaming kids and adults who were exhausted. There was NEVER a sense of self, well being, individuality, strength and purpose. It was just exhausted, fearful people with kids running around and the women gossiping. I remember all of it.

The obedience aspect is what is trying to kill the individual. Don't let it.

What is it about women that scare men so much?
Are we so dangerous that men have tried to force us
into submission for thousands of years?

Can any male rfm posters answer this question?
Not one of the men I asked could come up with an answer, (besides hubby),
other than men are the "protectors", and that's the way gawd set it up.
Gah!!!!
Any males brave enough to answered honestly???

Lol well I'm not a dude but I don't think it's US they're scared of, it's what happens to their bodies, sometimes involuntarily, when they're around us they're scared of. And some of em take it out on women.

She explained it in Housewife to Heretic. Something to do with the Black Widow spider image. She gave a speech titled "Patriarchal Panic: Sexual Politics in the Mormon Church." That's why they had to excommunicate her back in 1979.

Good article. Thanks for the link.

Trying to sort out the mindf**k myself:

I can be in the best shape ever and physically I can't take on 80% of the men out there. And that just pisses me off because I know I'm physically weaker but mentally I don't want to be "protected", coddled, made to feel less, or abused because of my perceived weakness. I can have strengths in other areas but it is kind of like the math geek and the bully - the show down is rarely about who can solve the calculus problem, it comes down to who can pound the other one the hardest. The general physical inequity makes me feel like this imbalance of male and female power will never go away.

I used to feel like the doctrine gave me power. It defined my differences from men and celebrated that role. Then I realized that it really was a way of putting me in my place, taking away my voice, forcing me to rely as a man as my intercessor.

I look to nature. I try to make sense of all the social systems of animals. Harems among the elk, polyandrous phalaropes, geese who care for young together, fertilize and flee ducks, etc. I don't get an answer there either except maybe different strokes for different folks.

I have a daughter in roller derby. The girls wear quite wild get-ups complete with fishnets. I found myself in my LDS mindset saying no 14 year old of mine is going to be trolling about in fishnets. WTF! She isn't trolling, she is having a great time with a bunch of girls becoming strong. She wants to fit in with her herd. She doesn't want to wear t-shirts and leggings under her sundress and should not have to! I went and bought her fishnets for her big upcoming bout. I'm done with the weird sexualized mindset that because one wears fishnets, she is a tramp and should be treated as such.

I think my husband suffers from some of this brainwashing as a kid. I think in some ways he equates women with sex. He is always very concerned with our son and any girl that comes about, that it is all about sex. Many of the girls my son hangs with are friends, like sisters, and my husband almost denies that this can be possible. I think men and women, especially hormone raging young ones think about sex, but they don't have to think of the person they are attracted to as a sexual object. How do you teach this idea?

Help me make it through the confusion!

Edit - I posted this in the middle, not at the end of the discussion where it should have gone. Sorry. I hope someone will read previous stuff and comment anyway. I really would like to hear ideas/thoughts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 12:50PM by goatsgotohell.

I wish I had an answer for you. I've just never been afraid of women. I would have DIED if I was born a hundred years ago. I like edgy, questioning, push-it-to-the-limit sorts of women, especially. The ones who always speak their mind, seeking to destroy the "natural order" of humankind.

I know most of my male friends don't share in this, though. No, they think quite the opposite. As their self-confidence hovers barely above the dirt, the thought of women liberating themselves from the social bonds at hold them mean they're probably not going to get laid. Or married. Or a job.

There are some of out there that do greatly enjoy your kind, though. And I don't just mean in a sexual way, thank you very much... but sometimes, yes I do.

I find it so foul how sex was used on both sexes to divide us. When I was in the military the thing that amazed me was that the girls and guys spent all our time together and sex NEVER came up, was thought about etc. We were friends, brothers/sisters. This idea that every young person just wants sex is a total lie and comes from perverted minds in SLC. There is so much depth between all of us that we could tap into without this garbage of "you are so special...that you have to do everything we say."

I used to think that the church had some decent teachings on a basic human level but no longer. Everything they teach is self serving. I was reminded that I promised in the temple to sacrifice my own life for this religion. That says it all. They didn't give a damn about me or you.

I was just reminded that when we went through the temple we promised to sacrifice our lives for the church. Then we were told to "bow our heads and say yes". How frightening is that? I sit here right now like a boulder that has fallen firmly on the ground. No conversation before we went to the temple to tell us that that would be asked of us and were we ok with that, did we feel safe with that, did we agree to give our lives, our time, our talents, our money...to the church? We thought we were going there to get closer to god, not to be stripped of every single thing we bloody owned!!!!!!! Even our own LIVES!!!! And they wonder why people say it's a cult. Go figure!

So, I say that all of us here on this board who are in the various stages of reclaiming ourselves are heros. To stand up against all of this is huge. Well done.

I have a lot of thoughts on this topic. But it's 11:00 pm and i'm too sleepy to put them into words at the moment. I need to do some thinking about how I've processed all the BS through the years.

Good description of the temple situation! I expected a spiritual experience. Not so much. A huge let down. Where was all the spiritual information that was so special nobody could talk about it? My first time was 1970's. Nobody gave me a clue what I was in for. I came out of there thinking that there was no way those promises i'd just made applied to me. Really? They thought I should kill myself for talking about some handshakes? I had 300 people showing up for a reception in a couple of hours. It was not the time to start asking questions. Not that they would have been answered.

I was only 18. I would have been shushed, guilted, and moved along.

If that happened to me now I would be saying: Hold everything. Stop the presses! Cut! You want me to WHAT? I think i'll pass on that.

You said..."I came out of there thinking that there was no way those promises i'd just made applied to me."

ME TOO!! Even as a tbm, I just thought..."that was not even real". And NOW I firmly believe they don't want the women to go through before marriage because they'd have time to think about it and run for the hills. Because you were under pressure, you didn't have time to think. That was on purpose.

When I was in the prayer circle and lowering my hands saying "oh god hear the words of my mouth", I thought "how odd, I was taught from a child that god heard my prayers without having to do this weird thing...this isn't right". And the sticking your hands through those slits in the curtain and that mallet? WTF?? That was so bizzare to me and just for lack of a better phrase..."anti god". Of course later when I found out about the masonic beginnings it all made sense, but good grief, handshakes to get ito heaven? Really? Green aprons?? Really?

(just my opinion?)

For sooooooooooooooooo long, women were 'automatically' repressed, esp. in Mormon culture.

Now, there's some backlash happening.

Guys <like me> who grew up in the 'old school' are facing women who've had enough of the Morg complacent/Molly stereotypes, and are FED UP.

roughly 1/2 women are Offended if we want to open a door, etc., the other 1/2 Expect It.

Not all women are 'sure' where they are on things like this: to identify with their Daughters or their Mothers!

ChurchCo leaders are desperately trying to be a cultural anchor; some women agree, some, even TBMs, disagree.

Men's 'leadership' roles have come to a Screeching Halt with many gals, they enjoy being 'in charge'. Some men make a 'man cave' in the garage, closet, anywhere they can eke out a manly refuge because their wives are so domineering about being IN CHARGE of the decor in 'their homes'(Spotless, 'picture perfect' etc).

Ok, I admit it. My husband has a man cave. But not because of the above reasons.

We just built a house and have pretty much the same taste. I have a room that I do my projects in, he had no say in how that looks, or what I have in there.

His man room is his thing. He keeps his guns, dead animal heads, and that sort of thing in there.

We both agree that a dead deer doesn't seem to go with the look of our living room.

It's also where my mother in law will stay when she visits. That was his idea. He's the one that likes everything spotless. I find it a bit annoying. I prefer a bit of clutter.

You are right on! My mom and dad each have their own space just because ever'buddy needs their own little place! A place to be a neatnik or a slob, whichever is you, to play your way, and that your partner will not invade unless invited by you!

Even I gots one!

There are lotsa other places that we all share, like the kitchen- we spend a lotta time in there- but it's important to have one's own spot!

Misogyny in the MORmON church
Misandry in the MORmON church.
MORmONS hate everyone!
Including and especially other MORmONS!

some ppl thought giving up two years of their life to try to bring new MORmON converts into the MORmON flock would get them a little respect and consideration, they did not know how little a little MORmON respect really was in this instance.

Its always nice when some smug @$$ hole who has been
pampered their entire life can make smart cracks about those that have to make things work for the same pampered @$$hole that is making fun of them.

would not it have been easier and more appropriate to just
say thank you !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuN_ZDJKkPo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIkVNWHT-IA

Seriously, if I had known what it really meant to give up my time, my resources, and my life to the church when I was on my mission, I could not have continued. I actually thought when I was out there that I was bringing souls to Christ (at the time), not asking people to relinguish their money, their time, their non member family members and their own LIVES!!! I couldn't have asked anyone to do that! That is NOT why I was there, but yet, that is what I was asking them to do and it sickens me. No wonder they have young people go, I would NEVER do it at this age. When you are that young you don't yet have the resources to lose, you don't yet know what that really means.

Just remember Gordon Hinckley's quote on missions.....
when it came to him having to serve one.

To his father "a waste of my time and your money"

My TBM grandparents were married in 1927. THey had 2 kids when the great depression hit. They had 4 by 1935, when in '35 Gordon Hinckley was coming home from his mission and he stopped by Detroit on the way back to pick up a brand new automobile for his MORmON insider parents. My grandparents sure as hell were not buying any new cars in 1935. but being faithFool MORmONS they were paid up on their tithing even though they were going broke.

Maybe Gordon Hinckley would have some snappy comment for my grandparents too, on their lack of faith and lack luster appearance.

yah, its sickening!

It's a real mindf**k because, after you're out of the church, it takes a long time to figure out that normal men -- nevermos -- don't think this way about women. I'd be afraid to flirt with anyone I wasn't willing to sleep with because I don't want to be thought of as a tease. Being a tease, according to mormonism, is almost a worse sin than actually following through and putting out!

It took me forever to realize that men can, do, and will control their impulses and they don't ALL view women as sex objects and/or faceless empty wombs. Finally, I learned how to be able to show kindness and compassion and be a real friend to men without thinking "Well, they'll be expecting me to put out now." Many will take you up on it if there's an offer on the table, but real men do not automatically assume that we are placed here on this earth for the sole purpose of serving THEIR needs.

'I think' my point was that some of us guys started life with the conformist view of how wifes are expected to behave; while some are still compliant, many others aren't. It was pretty much a crap-shoot which way our spouses (Both sides) would end up with.

It's NOT that we 'hate' women, at least not me. It's more like the paradigm has (undeniably?) shifted.

Broad changes in our social lives can be disruptive, even if they're headed for progress.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 11:47AM by guynoirprivateeye.

guynoirprivateeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> some of us guys
> started life with the conformist view of how wifes
> are expected to behave;

That's the problem; any time you have a role that you expect someone else to conform to, instead of recognizing that person as a unique individual, you're going to be disappointed.

Especially the ones who are gifted as leaders, academics, and/or in athletics, when they see how women are treated in the contemporary society, and how they are treated in LDS Inc, don't they have a major WTF moment?

Maybe they do. I hear that LDS Inc loses a lot of women in the transition from YW to RS unless they are already married, and fewer LDS women are getting married shortly after HS.

I was brought up in the 40's and 50's.....and my Dad honored my Mom...she was an equal partner in life and in the farm business....and the same is true with my dear wife...who I was soooo fortunate to marry 39 years ago this coming Saturday....

Ok, I admit I have a sinister sense of humor, and one of them is making light of sexism. Both my parents are TBM and one time I was cooking with my mom in the kitchen and I made some sort of joke about the kitchen being where women should be. She, in all seriousness, said "Oh that's ok. I know my place." I gasped in horror at her comment! Subconciously, I know I've picked up being subservient to men throughout my life from her. I think back and notice all the little things she said and did with her marriage were subservient to my father. My father loved it too. He is obsessed about power... but I guess I've picked that up from him as well. Haha.

I remember several lessons about women leading men astray and the cheesy videos that usually portrayed women as "femme fatals" for souls.
Even as a TBM, I thought it was stereotypical garbage for women to be portrayed as evil. And I always trusted women more than men.
P.S. I'm a guy who grew up with my mom being around more than my dad. That might explain some of my views.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 03:55AM by hellrazor.

There's a simple reason there is misogyny in the church: god is a Cosmic Chauvinist, duh.

OTOH, my (now ex) DW told me that the sisters were counseled to 'stay attractive for their husbands' with the hidden/suggested thought that they might 'prevent' their penishood guys to avoid doing the no-no with someone else.

It bothers me to no end how women were to somehow get inside a man's brain and be his sexual conscience. It is so co-dependent, so unhealthy. It's just as much a slap to the men...saying..."you guys are just so weak, and such incompetent sexual beasts that you must control your women so you won't want to wander".

The entire church system is exceptionally unhealthy, and plain inhumane and contributes to so much pain in their members and those around them.

Look, it's not the Church's fault that women are inferior...

Here's a conundrum, who had greater standing in the Church in 1977?
A. A white woman
B. A black man
C. A 12 year old Deacon

Here's another, who has greater standing in the Church today?
A. A white woman
B. A black man
C. A gay white man
D. A 12 year old Deacon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 04:51AM by Stumbling.

I unfortunately had the misconception when I became a Mormon, (of which I am no longer), that men and women were treated equally. My wife and I have always lived as a team, as equal partners. I was dismayed to find out I was wrong about this and several other things. But one thing we did find out in the process was that Joseph Smith, Jr. Originally had ordained both Men and Women with the Melchizedek Priesthood. And that women still get that priesthood when they go to the temple, (which I do not recommend the temple now that I know about it). But women don't know they have it and are not instructed in it's use or given any offices with it.
From what we found, it was Brigham Young who had a misogynistic attitude. Comments were made through the years by various leaders that they were afraid of women having power. That if they had power, they would no longer need men. How lame is that?
Most spiritual people know it is each person's feminine side that is the spiritual side. Women deserve to take and use their power as equals to men!

somewhat related:

the reasoning for the treatment of women may have some roots in the missionary experience where one is always the 'senior' companion, the other the junior.

Gotta keep that hierarchal mentality - system going, ya know

Any suggestion that women are not equal to men precipitates an angry, irrational rant from him "proving" that most men are as powerless as women; that only a handful of men at the top have power; and that's how it's always been in this old world.

Very frustrating and aggravating.