Okay everyone I just got home about an hour ago and I am still in shock. I went in tonight, well prepared with all the material I'd gathered after some extensive research in to all the websites you all suggested. I can't thank you enough for it, by the way.

What I forgot to mention in my first post is that the missionaries don't come to my house, I go to the Church. I asked for this because I live with a friend who's an atheist and I wanted to respect her personal, private space by not letting them invade our house. I'm also a PhD student and as a part of it I work long hours at the University so I simply told them that it was easier for me. They agreed.

My big problem is that they are really great guys. They're nice and kind and I genuinely like them. We always goof a bit before the lessons, which made the guilty, sick feeling in my stomach even worse. I felt that I was betraying them with my questions, but there was no way I was going to fold.

Once we started they asked, as they usually do, if I had any questions. I told them I did and pulled out a thick wad of printouts, some of which contained my notes, others were original articles from the Ensign and the like and the rest were files I'd printed out on Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Heber Chase Kimball from the familysearch.org.

They enthusiastically invited my questions.

I started with polygamy and the 24 wives the official record shows. I know that there are records of up to 33 wives but I purposely used the official ones. When I explained what I'd found, one of them looked to the papers in shock and whispered, "I'd never heard of this before." The feeling of dread intensified. I showed them the records of Brigham Young and Heber Chase Kimball (whose records I'd printed out because a lot of his wives were shared with Joseph Smith, mostly and Brigham Young, some) and pointed out the matching names as well as some of the women who were sealed to Joseph Smith after he'd died, not to mention Kimball's own daughter who was married to Smith at the age of 15...

They very honestly told me they'd never heard of it before and then offered to get the Mission President in on the next lesson. I accepted, because I figure this guy has to know more than these kids seem to.

I thought that the lesson would end early because I had questions I wanted answered, which they couldn't do, but the other missionary started by asking me what was I doing. And warned me that Satan was very obviously trying to get me off the right path. Out of respect, I managed not to roll my eyes. I explained, politely and honestly, that I was worried because I was never told any of these things and that they matter to me.

I once again pointed out that I'd already had problems like these in the Catholic Church and that before I would agree to anything I simply had to have all the facts. During this time the missionary who seemed to be in shock recovered and started pulling out quotes from the BoM and the D&C (which they still haven't offered to let me read...).

Then they proceeded to tell me I needed to pray and that God would give me the only answers that matter. That Christ wanted me to come to him and that the "small things shouldn't matter". I grew agitated but remained polite while I tried to explain that the (so-called) Prophet having 24 wives, a few of whom were married, or teenagers or both didn't seem like a small thing to me. I asked a few other questions but they couldn't answer any of them, and after the 3rd one I gave up and told them I'd love to have the Mission President on our next discussion, which is tomorrow.

We agreed on the time and again, I thought the lesson was over, when one started justifying polygamy (all of 24 wives) while the other told me that all I needed to know was the big picture, that Joseph Smith spoke to God and that this was His Church, that not everything could be found out right away. Then he quoted the BoM some more before telling me verbatim, that sometimes you need to have milk before meat. I'd only heard of that expression here so my composure slipped for a second. They asked me to pray and ask for answers but to freely ask them tomorrow as well. I told them I would and finally the lesson was over.

I walked out completely out of my element. The initial shock on their faces was genuine. The whispered dismay was too. How did they recover so quickly and how did I end up with even more questions?

Guys, I could really use any advice you can offer on how to deal with the Mission President tomorrow and how to, if possible, not hurt these kids with my refusal to get baptized. Because I will not do it just so I would spare their feelings.

HELP!

... They always seem new
Those five little words
"Kiss my a**" and "F**k you!"

Guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt. It starts with the mishie lessons and never stops ... Until, of course, you make it stop!

Make it stop. You already know what you need to know. You are being recruited by a religious cult. Ask yourself what these guys have ever done for you other than that.

Nothing to feel guilty about, but now you see how they work. Mind what you have learned. Help you it can!

Timothy

Use the force I will! Thanks, Master Jedi Timothy. ;) I don't feel guilty about anything to do with my actual decision. I'm determined and nothing will sway me. I'm assertive but I really want to put these guys down gently. The more I think about it... It might be easier for me to argue my point with the Mission President and get it across...

The mission president will be the devil, and you invited him. You could have made this easier by just dismissing the missionaries. It doesn't matter that they are "such good guys." They are preaching moronic doctrines of a moronic church, and you have to stand tough.

I'd just go back to all the other stuff we talked about in the original thread. Take notes and don't be afraid to read them off. You may reach an impasse pretty quickly, though, as someone might remind you that the living prophet can trump any prophet or doctrine before him. It's the Mormons' way of changing the playing field, the rules, and the air pressure in the football any time something doesn't go their way. Church history is fine as long as it favors their argument. Church doctrine is fine as long as it doesn't contradict what they want to preach.

Here's something important to tell them, though: "What kind of
'loving Father in Heaven' would want me to commit to joining His church before telling me every detail about it? What kind of God would be so embarrassed over his doctrines that he would want to make me wait and have it explained piecemeal after I had already committed to paying tithing, getting baptized, and becoming a member? A 'loving Father in Heaven' and a true prophet of God would be ever so kind and patient, and be happy to share every whit of doctrine, smiling benevolently the whole time."

And the truth is, you will NEVER receive the so-called "meat." That never happens! Remember what we say here frequently: "Trying to find out the truth about Mormon doctrine is like nailing Jell-o to the wall."

Expect the ratio of difficulty to be ratcheted up several clicks the next time.

I met this guy once and he seemed like a really nice, simple man. But I'm afraid you might be right. Be it as it may, I'm not afraid of arguing my points. And as my father frequently reminds me I could drive a saint to swear with my stubbornness. Pun intended. ;) So I'll just be my usual, argumentative self tomorrow. It's really helpful when you point out to me what to ask. My number of notes is ever increasing. Thanks again, guys!

http://www.lds-mormon.com/fv.shtml

Note that in 1832 Joseph Smith in his own handwriting sid he had a vision of Christ and his sins were forgiven.

D&C 20 states likewise.
In the the LDS bible Luke 10:22 the footnote ( written1831) indicates that the Father and the Son are the same.Joseph changed the wording to indicate that the Father and The Son are the same person as taught in the Book of Mormon.

Lectures on Faith 1835 Joseph taught that the Father was a a personage of glory, and that the Son was that glory made manifest in theflesh.

The Book of Mormon which he wrote/translated in 1827-1829 teaches that God is a spirit.

And here is a link showing that as of 1831 nobody including family, friends, enemies, or newspapers ever heard the story of the Grove. Only that an angel named Moroni (sometimes Nephi) commissioned Joseph to the work.
http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/dalemorgan/daleappendixb.htm#Appendiz%20B

No my question to them would be this:
If everything rests on the First Vision, why didn't JSjr tell anyone, and why did joseph create scripture that contradicts the nature of God if he had seen both as seperate beings?

At any rate, the Mission President is only going to more forcefully stress that you need to not look at anything that is unapproved. He is going to give you the hard sell.

You owe nobody anything and if anything at all, they owe you adequate time to learn as much as you can before making a life changing decision, and it Will be a life changing event.

Stop meeting with them and RUN!
Why do you keep wasting your time?

They are on a mission for the cult and will try to reel in as many simple souls as they can.

But this is a dead-end game for you, there is no "one true" church.

Stick with the religion your parents gave you.

The RC church, imperfect though it may be, will respect you as an individual and leave you alone - which is something Mormonism won't do.
You'd be jumping from the oil into the frying pan.

You do not owe the missionaries anything,not even any explanations. Just move on.

And the joys of deep doctrine remain entirely unexplored by the looks of it!

My mind is made up, but somehow I figured I owed them the explanation of why I changed my mind. But then, they weren't honest with me and it bothers me. Thing is, I told them I'd come and talk to him and I can't go back on my word. But I will make my points and get it over with. I read about the first vision and it creeps me out that most of the members have no friggin idea that the stories don't add up. And like you said, EVERYTHING is based on it. Sadly, unless they'll really offer something, I can already hear, "If you'd pray hard enough..." and "Beware the Satan..." I just know I'll get the urge to say I'll take my chances with ole Lucifer... :P

I hate to think what would have happened to me if I hadn't discovered this site, and many others, that pointed out some glaringly obvious facts about deep doctrine... :/

And it just get worse the more you dig. 15 years ago I thought I was pretty convinced from my studies that the church was baloney. Since then I have discovered lots and lots of things I didn't know back then.

One of the reasons the average TBM knows very little is that so much of the information has only been readily available the last 20 or so years. The information age has changed everything. I have family raised in the church who know very little of the conflicting first vision stories, Joseph's playing around, glaring conflicts between the Book of Commandments and D&C, etc.

Hang in there and be tough with them, but sincere. You remind me of a few investigators I know a long time ago who wouldn't commit without knowing more and it really messed with my mind as a missionary.

I didn't have answers back then, and I'm sure these gentlemen have nothing to offer other than "pray, and don't think about it."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2010 06:21PM by madiran.

Ask them if they had a friend that was going to join Scientology, what would they do? Now Scientology in general teaches fairly friendly day-to-day nice living philosophies. However, at it's core, you can eventually be told that their beliefs are that aliens called Thetians blew themselves up on earth 50 Million ago and their essence is around us influencing us.

Now Should they tell they friend about the Scientology deep doctrine or let him join that cult and not find this out for several years under the 'milk before meat' philosphy?

If they would tell their friend, then why shouldn't you be informed of the deep doctrine of the LDS church before joining?

Would we accept milk before meet from any other institution? Wouldn't we be outraged if say the government was witholding information of alien contact with the earth or some impending disaster or something? Why does the LDS church get a free pass on milk before meat but no other insitution deserves it?

Ask them for details surrounding the temple ceremony? Ask them if it's really about learning secret handshakes and passwords to get into heaven?

These handshakes and passwords come from the Masonry ceremony that the LDS Church apologists admit originated in the Middle Ages.

If they deny the handshakes thing, give them this quote (note the 'signs and token' are the secret passwords and handshakes shown to members in the temple after they have been members for one year and pay their tithing to the church)

"Let me give you the definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." (emphasis added)
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p.31. (see also 2:315; 5:133; 6:63, 154-55; 8:339; 9:25-26, 91; 10:172; 11:27; 12:164 18:132; 19:250)

http://mormonthink.com/

several people who posted to the original thread. What does that tell you?

"Satan was very obviously trying to get me off the right path."
Predicted.

"pray and that God would give me the only answers that matter"
Predicted.

Go back and read the original thread. Their responses are rote.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2010 06:47PM by wine country girl.

Well,WCG, what it means is we are agents of Satan, of course--or Satin, among those more overwrought and spelling-impaired believers :-)

silk satin to be precise.

Some simple thoughts, since so many have guided you along the way:

- I was once one of those nice missionaries. I am now here. Your example to them will go a long way in leading them out of the cult one of these days...guaranteed.

- Don't let them position your concerns as "deep" or nuanced doctrine, or meat. When Joseph and Brigham were practicing these things, they were the essential elements of faith and salvation.

- Demand respect..once they sense you're gone, the manipulation will be ratched up, and condescending, manipulative approaches designed to prey on the weak will be in play. Especially from the mission president.

- Use the example of your current faith, that a full year of study is not unheard of for such a life commitment. "What's the rush?" is a fair question, though they'll reply that it's to beat the devil to the waters of baptism, since you now have been shown the "truth."

Good luck. Good thoughts your way, from a guy who has been on both sides of the discussion. :)

I've been following your threads since they started.

First, it doesn't matter how nice these guys are- They are trying to get you to do something you really don't want to do. That's not friendship!

One of the issues that cemented my leaving (I was BIC) was the discovery of the racism in Mormonism wehn I was 19. I knew there was no way in hell that a true, loving god would condone something as idiotic as racism. When I was a teenager I wondered, "Why aren't lighter skinned people punished for Adam's sin, but somehow dark skinned people have to take the fall for Cain's sin?" That is a hush-hush doctrine, BTW. Many Mormons deny or minimize this racist crap.

Again, I don't know if this helps you, but I think that if there was a god, he or she wouldn't condone sexism, racism, dishonesty, greed...etc These issues are a part of the foundation of Mormonism. You don't owe those missionaries or that so-called church anymore of your time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2010 07:04PM by itzpapalotl.

SALES RESISTANCE! :)

I love threads like this. I mean, I'm sorry you are going through this, but since you are, I'm really happy you were able to find the various ex-mo sites.

It's all really fascinating to me, never having been a convert. I really appreciate you keeping us updated with your story.

I can hardly wait for the next installment!

Erin

Just stick to your guns when you meet the mission president. The truth of the Mormon church's sordid past isn't going to be any different with him present. I think it will be an interesting meeting for you. The mission president will probably take the insanity defense and claim that the facts don't matter - only feelings. You, of course, have that one in the bag. You went through this before with the Catholic church. Facts matter to you, even if they don't to them.

I'm actually kind of interested to hear what he's going to say about Smith's polygamy. That's pretty damning to be busted hiding a thing like that from your own missionaries, don't you think? (You should tell him that.)

Oh they knew about polygamy, but they were shocked by the number of wives, not to mention the little detail of how some of them were happily married before he married them as well. I wonder how this "details don't matter" convinces anyone... :/ But then again, I had no idea about the "details" until I started researching on my own. I'll definitely post after the meeting tomorrow night and let you know how it went.

http://packham.n4m.org/bomvslds.htm

Show him this chart and ask:
If the BoM is TRUE, which of the Restoration groups should I join instead of LDS Inc.?

That ought to get him all worked up.

Be sure they realize that you are not raising questions. If they believe you just have questions, it means there might be a answers.
You have made discoveries, you have made an informed decision.
You have reached a conclusion. The boys need to realize that. If you let them define the issues as questions, they will continue in the same vein.

I'm making it clear tomorrow. I tried to do it today but they sort of sidetracked me with their reactions. At least now I know exactly what to expect.

Don't worry about offending or coming off rude to the Elders— You owe them nothing. You owe it to yourself to find enough truth to make a decision about Mormonism. Seriously if the religion can't handle tough questions and questioning how can it be 'God only true Church", really? In fact you may be doing those guys a favor by exposing them to this stuff. When I was was a missionary 22 years ago I knew very little of this stuff. Things I learned in the field from supposed 'anti' sources stuck in my mind and I finally researched them 10+ years later— only to find it all was a fraud. I wish some had told me more back when I was 19.

The Mission Pres. will likely put a fair amount of pressure on you to ditch the research unless it is the BoM or approved LDS sources. He'll focus on prayer and 'feeling the spirit" instead of a logical look at the evidence and issues. If you need/want logical answers stand your ground and don't let them push you into glossing over the hard issues.

Sounds like others have given you plenty of sources for information.

Here are a few of my favorites:

http://www.mormonthink.com/
http://www.i4m.com/
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/
http://www.lds-mormon.com/

My top 5 Issues:

The Book of Abraham -
Joseph got the translation completely wrong. The papyri are not what he claimed— and this is supposed to be scripture.
http://www.bookofabraham.com/essays.html

The Book of Mormon —
The content of the book makes it clear it is clearly a 19th century document. Joseph or whoever wrote it drew heavily on 19th century sources and ideas. Anachronisms galore etc. Read BH Roberts Studies of the Book of Mormon where he compares Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews to the BoM.
http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-Brigham-Madsen/dp/1560850272
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_Hebrews

Polygamy/Polyandry-
Joseph Smith claimed to receive revelations allowing him to marry women other than his first wife Emma. Some the relationships appear to have been affairs more than marriages. 11 of Joseph's 33 wives were already married to there men when he married them. Affidavits confirm that JS had sex with at least some of his plural wives. 2 of the wives were 14. A number of times JS told these women that their exaltation (living with God) and that of their families depended on them becoming his wives.

JS using treasure seeking trick of putting seer stone in his hat to 'translate' the BoM.

Evolving version of the First Vision story to match Joseph's evolving views of God.

Mormonism is like a Seurat painting. Individually the facts are like those dots of paint. Just individual dots. If you step back and take in the bigger picture and it looks quite different. Add it all up and IMO it's clearly not what it claims to be.

Good luck in your meeting. Mormons are nice people and I'm sure these Elders and the MP are no different. Be nice back but be sure to find truth on your own terms. Be polite but be firm.

my 2 cents.

Mish Prez will just say something along the lines of:

Don't worry - BYU's crack researchers have found loads of new evidence which show that Joseph Smith didn't found a religion to help him get laid, everything in BoM is true and did you hear that they just found a complete skeleton of a horse next to a metal sign saying "Next exit Zarahemla center".

I predict that the actions of the mission president will be intended to reassure the upset missionaries, not to salvage you as a potential convert.
If he shows, it's more likely to be a demonstration of his wisdom for their sake, not yours.
He won't debate. He won't substantively answer your questions. At most he'll give canned apologetic answers, then excuse their obvious inadequacy by saying that the gospel can't be appreciated logically anyway, only "spiritually" by "gaining a testimony". He'll be condescending and patronizing. He'll politely insult your intelligence, and preach that your approach is worldy, and that you're insincere (which, well, you are).
If you weren't meeting at the church they might just drop you. But they're at least stuck with meeting you there and explaining their actions, whatever they are.

Speaking as a former missionary, these guys have built-in rejection and compensation mechanisms. The church has canned answers for missionaries as well.

You WON'T "win". I'd tell them you've seen enough and end it.

Wow, a lot of ex missionaries here. ;) I appreciate your advice the most, not to disregard the others, because you've been in those shoes. I'm not looking to win, but I figure I owe it well, to myself, more than them to leave as I came, honestly and with sincere intentions.

Truth be told, I feel sorry for the kids. One of them told me tonight, right before we ended the discussion that the whole world could be saying that the BoM is a lie and he wouldn't listen because he's heard it "straight from the source", meaning God, that it is. I bit my tongue and kept my mouth shut.

Tomorrow... I'm doing no such thing. I plan to make it clear that while I think they're great people I find it disturbing that they were not completely honest. If I had gotten baptized I can promise you I would have resigned the moment I read the D&C which they don't give before baptism but I managed to find out enough about on line. Long live the internet and the free flow of information. :D

Ask them to show you any source prior to 1830 in which Joseph Smith told about having a vision in the grove.

Ask them if the BOM was translated as Apostle Russel M. Nelson explained in a recent general conference, i.e; By Joseph placing the same seer stone in his hat that he had used to "find" buried treasure and then placing his face in the hat to exclude all light, and then a parchment would appear with words which he would read to his scribes. The words would not disappear until they had been recorded correctly...and then new words would appear. If that translation process was coming from God, then why have there been more than 3000 corrections to the BOM.

Ask him why Moroni lugged the heavy plates all the way to upstate New York when the plates weren't even used in the translation.

Ask him why, if 230,000 folks were killed in the final battle in the area of the Hill Cummorah, using steel swords, etc., why has nothing been found...not one thing...from that great battle.

Ask him why even BYU professors including John Sorensen, disagree with the church's position about where the real Hill Cummorah is located.

Ask him if the BOM can be considered a true, historical record, or real people, etc.

Ask about DNA showing that Native Americans as well as South America indians can be traced to eastern siberia....not to the middle east.

I could go on and on...but these might help you. Demand answers..don't let him off the hook by saying that answers to these questions are not important as long as you get the old "burning in the busom"..

Best Wishes!!

The Doctrine and Covenants is easy to find online:

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament?lang=eng

Good luck, I served a mission as well once upon a time.

if you can get some space in your mind while you're talking with them, have fun observing the body language they use and note the discomfort they experience as they try to squirm away from your points. Enjoy watching them go into their programmed actions, as they did in the interview you detail above. They'll likely label your research and all the other "meat" you've discovered as "anti," and they will offer no substantive proof for the claims their religion makes. They will be dismissive and perhaps patronizing--anything to move away from the core of truth they're faced with.

I think Amos is right: the mission president is going to be less about you than he is about schooling his boys on how to handle the tough cases.

One lesser-used element of the religious tradition is wiping the dust of a place one is leaving as a witness against it. I think it would be hilarious to hand them a small bag of dirt as they left, saying that this should save them time in their ritual, should they wish to perform it.

Thanks for the reminder, also, that being honest is the best antidote to "lying for the Lord."

I think amos above correctly predicts what you should expect from the Mission President.

Also, the missionaries have been taught they can "win" any debate by bearing their testimony to you. You know, where they say, "I know the church is true. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God."

Don't let them think this has ended the discussion. Ask them to clarify.

Are they, in fact, saying, "I know that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and lied about it to most of his followers; I know Joseph Smith married the wives of other men, often after sending the husbands away on missions; I know Joseph Smith usually did not have the plates with him while translating the Book of Mormon (as testified by David Whitmer, Isaac Hale, Martin Harris, Joseph Smith Sr., and Oliver Cowdery), and the rest of the time the plates were wrapped in cloth; I know the original scrolls used to translate the Book of Abraham were recovered in an art museum in New York in 1967, and have since been shown to be nothing more than common Egyptian funerary text; I know that these things are true, AND Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, because God has revealed it to me." Is this, in fact, the testimony they are bearing to you?

If these poor, young men were to answer, "Yes," tell them they may want to re-examine their advice to trust their feelings over fact.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2010 12:31AM by seymour.

I am interested in persuasion techniques and summarized some key ones a few years ago in the context of Mormonism. The missionaries usually are likable and good guys. Check out the technique of "Liking." By the way, in the early 80s, I was an instructor at the Missionary Training Center--I trained these guys to do what they are doing.

Professor Robert Cialdini of Arizona State University wrote Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion to prevent people from being unknowingly persuaded against their best interests. While the principles of influence Cialdini writes about are important in forming healthy relationships and social networks, unscrupulous salespeople, politicians, and religious leaders can (and do) use them as psychological weapons to manipulate us into making decisions that are contrary our best interests, sometimes with serious consequences.

In this context, Cialdini describes what he calls the “Weapons of Influence.” I have summarized them and added some brief commentary of my own about their application to Mormonism. Although each influencer is listed separately, they are often used in combination to increase their effectiveness.

Reciprocation

Reciprocation works by creating a sense of indebtedness. When someone does us a favor, even an unsolicited favor, we often feel an obligation to do something in return. The favor does not have to be tangible. Repayment is often out proportion to the value of the original favor. Skilled salespeople find some way of giving uninvited favors, tangible or intangible in order to create a sense of indebtedness. This creates a sense of indebtedness to the salesperson that makes it more likely you will buy the product. The principle of reciprocation, paired with liking, underlies Mormon fellowshipping attempts or “love-bombing.”

Commitment and Consistency

Once we take a stand about something or make a commitment, we experience internal and external pressure to maintain those commitments. On the plus side, this principle allows us to create stable relationships and social groups. Our employers like being able to count on us to do our jobs. We like counting on them to get a paycheck. People don’t like people who are unreliable and we don’t like to be thought of as unreliable.

When I was a missionary, and, later, an instructor at the Missionary Training Center, we used a “commitment pattern” to elicit commitments from investigators. It was found that people who committed early in the teaching process were more likely to follow through to baptism. As missionaries we could appeal to their commitment and sense of self-consistency to keep them moving along.

As members, Mormons are progressively committed to giving increasing amounts of time, energy, and money to the church program. Commitments are a central feature of the LDS temple endowment, culminating in The Law of Consecration, which commits the member to give or potentially give *everything* to the LDS Church.

Questioning or withdrawing from the commitments can be very painful for doubting members whose identify is built around the commitments they have made and who find themselves thinking, feeling, and acting in ways inconsistent with their former image of themselves as faithful Mormons.

Social Proof

Social proof means making decisions based on what other people think is correct. Most of the time it works well by saving us the time and effort it would take to work out every decision. It is fortunate, for example, that other drivers just go along with the traffic laws. The principle of social proof helps us to adapt to new situations and environments by encouraging us to observe what others are doing and emulate them.

At times social proof works against our interests. Sometimes the group is wrong. Sometimes social proof prevents us from seeing flaws or better ways of doing things. The Mormon Church relies heavily on social proof. When Gordon B. Hinckley says that the great majority of Mormon women in the church are satisfied with being left out of ecclesiastical decisions, implied those who aren’t happy are mistaken, he is using social proof. Social proof also underlies the publication of the church membership statistics.

In extreme cases, social proof in combination with commitment and consistency contributes to events like Jonestown and Heaven’s Gate.

Liking

We like to please people we know and like. We tend to like people who appear to have similar opinions, personality traits, and lifestyles as ourselves. We also like people who like us. The Mormon Church is very conscious about its image and has spent millions of dollars crafting that image and selling it to the public. The explicit dress and behavior codes for missionaries and BYU students and the less explicit, but nonetheless powerful dress and behavior codes for the Mormon membership, are in large part aimed at making Mormons appear likable. This concern about being liked led Gordon B. Hinckley to declare in a 1996 interview with Mike Wallace, “We are not weird.”

Authority

We are raised, for the most part, to respect authority and have grown up dealing with authorities, including parents, teachers, employers, law enforcement, etc. The appearance of authority can be enhanced by using symbols, citing other authorities, dressing like other authorities, and making sure others know about their experience and education. The goal of appealing to authority is to persuade your listener that you are in a position to know better than they and that they should follow your advice. The quintessential statement of Mormon authority comes from a ward teaching lesson from May 1945 and was repeated a month later in an official church publication: "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done." Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945, Improvement Era, June 1945.

Mormon leaders may find this statement and others like it useful for keeping the recalcitrant in line. However, Mormon apologists who recognize that such statements don’t play well outside of Provo deny the Mormon leadership means what it says. This denial is made in spite of similar statements made in official church settings and in Mormon scripture:

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” Doctrine & Covenants, Declaration 1

Fortunately, the religious authority of the Mormon leadership is based on our volunteering our belief. Once we withdraw our belief, their influence on us is significantly eroded.

Scarcity

Scarcity works on the principle that when something is difficult to get, it is perceived to be of more value. The item can be physically scarce or priced so high that it perceived to be of better quality than the same item at a lower cost.

In Mormonism, the scarcity principle applies to obtaining a temple recommend and “going to the temple.” Members who receive the temple ordinances are told they have received special blessings that are not available to every member, much less non-Mormons. The promotion of temple ordinances as sacred and special may leave members who find them silly and bizarre in a state of shock, confusion, and self-doubt.

By making ourselves aware of these Weapons of Influence and keeping them in mind when listening and interacting with Mormon missionaries and leaders, we can see the techniques they are using, and resist their efforts to recruit us into the flock or create guilt that we have left.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2010 02:40AM by robertb.

When I read Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens by Susan Clancy, a Harvard psychologist, it struck me that her work has a significant bearing on the process of converting to Mormonism and the witness-claims of Mormons. I've summarized Clancy's main points below:

• People who experience difficult or unusual things sometimes try to explain them using whatever information is available in their environment. They may continue to "try on" explanations until one "feels right" to them.

• Once they find a good fit, they begin to filter and bias information to strengthen their interpretation. Some people are willing to lose friends and endure terrible "memories" to hold on their interpretation of events and will not accept more plausible and less painful explanations.

• Although scientists don't accept anecdotal experience, it is nonetheless given great importance by most people because it *feels* real and fits their daily experience of reality.

• Imaginative people, especially those with strong visual imagination, are prone to memory errors and under the right conditions can come to believe imaginary events are real. This is particularly true when people are encouraged over a sustained period to describe visual events in the presence of an authority figure who validates the imaginary events. Authority figures can consciously or unconsciously manipulate or reinforce certain interpretations when a person is in a susceptible state.

Applying this information to the Mormon process of "gaining a testimony," it is easy to how some people can come to believe Mormon teachings and undergo a conversion experience.

• The missionaries present novel information, which the investigator then has to explain and accept or reject.

• If the missionaries' explanation ("presence of the Holy Ghost") closely matches the investigator's explanation and provides a relevant interpretation (meaning) for the investigator, the investigator begins to believe and grants authority to the missionaries.

• Additional information about Mormonism is filtered and interpreted to fit with the previous experience. The missionaries and other church authorities, who are seen as the source of this information and experience, are granted additional authority.

I was struck by the importance of *visual* imagination in this process and how much emphasis Mormons put on *seeing.* This started with Joseph Smith claiming to *see* God and Jesus and his creating visual props ("gold plates") with which persuade his converts. The big lure for the Three Witnesses was they would be allowed to *see* the gold plates. It is interesting that Joseph Smith would choose the mode of perception that is most easily manipulated. The following link provides an account of the testimony of the three witness that strongly suggests it was at best a psychological experience rather than a physical one.

http://www.exmormon.org/file9.htm

In addition, when you look at a bit of history behind Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants, it was created by Joseph Smith supposedly receiving a vision in conjunction with Sidney Rigdon in the presence of others. The process consisted of Smith and Rigdon essentially leading everyone in a guided visualization--the process most likely to create "false memories" according to Clancy. Smith would say (paraphrasing), "I see such-and-such. Do you see that?" and Rigdon would affirm that he did, of course.

Clancy’s explanation for the experience of alien abduction provides some important insight into the Mormon testimony experience, including the witness-experiences of The Three Witness, assuming they were not simply outright frauds (a possibility I don’t discount).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2010 04:17AM by robertb.

You're playing games with these guys because they're nice? Come on. They have an agenda.

What's happening here is the same as if I would go to a dress shop every week, not to buy anything, but just because the salesladies are "nice." Their job is to serve customers and make money for the store. I'd be taking up their time with no intention of actually contributing to their reasons for being there.

If you want to try to save these missionaries from their cult, that's probably a comendable goal. But you can't assume they'll learn anything or appreciate it. Planting seeds might work, but there are no guarantees.

If you're just hanging out because you want friends, that won't work because these guys aren't allowed to have real ongoing friendships.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2010 04:50AM by Cheryl.

Get on You Tube and check out 'Cults' there are some good ones about how cults operate and I saw 1 of these videos last night and everything it said was just like how the Mormons operate. Sounds like they are about to do a little "love bombing" to me. You see, they are now leaving you with even more questions than answers. They are doing standard procedure by rooting thru their BOMs,and such...Now cmon, do you really believe that ol Joe had a magic rock? It was proven that he was a treasure hunter and the townsfolk set him up by having a Blacksmith make the Kinderhook plates, these men then hid these plates in the "hills" so ol JS would find them, and therefore these men proved he was a scam artist...did I mention that these so called Kinderhook plates were tested and it was the conclusion of these individuals that they were made by a Blacksmith shop in the 1840s...Go to Utah Lighthouse Ministries and see what it says about the Kinderhook plates...That is what ultimately proved to me it was a lie.

"Meat" is simply the stuff they don't want you to find out about. Some of what is "meat" now was not meat when I was growing up.

More and more doctrine is being hidden away by the church because decent people find it unjust, illogical and in some cases just plain evil.

From my experience, most missionaries are bothered about the numbers they can convert, rather than the feelings of the individual. If you get baptised they may send you a Christmas card in the future. If you don't, do you think they will still want to be your "friends"?

I guarantee you that once they get you baptised you will not see them ever again. This did happen to me, and they never did my "new member discussions"either. They told me to pray and fast and "feel" the spirit...I did, turned out it was a bad case of indigestion. Nothing that a few Tums can't take care of.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2010 05:09AM by utahmonomore.

I was a first assistant to my mission president. When situations like this came up, my mission president would send me to deal with it. He never, ever would have gone to a show down. I was left to my own resources and he would not even talk about it or help me to prepare. I gave blessings and cast out the evil one's amongst us. I played the silly games.

In the end, it was a great help in me realizing that those in authority over me had no special powers or discernment. They were just cowardly and disengenuous men. It was a great wake up call for me and the start of my exit. What a load of crap and a waste of my time the whole mission (and church) thing was.

So, from my experience, I am guessing you won't see the pres and it is possible the missionaries themselves will stand you up. You are way too dangerous for any of them. However, your posts (and everyone else's) are awesome.

I am looking forward to your next up date (and hope I am wrong about the attendance at the meeting tonight)

Remember, the missionaries are just kids, and they never get taught the real history growing up. And their purpose as missionaries is to convert in a spiritual way, not by proof or debate, but by appealing to your emotional/spiritual side - thus "as God if it is true" will always replace evaluation of facts.

The mission president probably knows the history, but will refuse to debate it, especially in front of the missionaries. He will make the same appeal, that you ask God. And he will probably give the same warnings, that Satan is working on you.

There is no solution to this situation. It's like trying to convince an opposing attorney that you're right and his client is wrong - they have no interest in knowing the truth, only an interest in promoting their own view.

Ask yourself..... if a 20 year old missionary - who has more than likely been through years of seminary and institute, as well as numerous, interminable church lessons - DOESN'T KNOW the basic facts that you have dug up...... what does that tell you about 'milk before meat'?

You are in the early stages of the mormon plan of seduction & manipulation. You have a sense that something isn't quite right - but the seductive appeal is disarming, and perhaps you are unable to fully convince yourself that a "church" could in fact be an outrageous & shoddy scam; that mormon missionaries might be nothing more noble than deluded, poorly educated twenty-somethings.


You need to go to a neutral corner: immediately _stop_ all contact with representatives of the mormon church: don't let them in the door, don't converse with them on the phone, ignore their emails, etc. Don't try reason and discussion with them, don't try to be polite, don't try anything with them - that is the whole point. Get to a neutral corner where you don't have mormon drones whispering in your ear, and start thinking about what internal needs made mormonism seem attractive in the first place. That's likely to be a lengthy process - but you have as much time as you need, so long as you are not being pressured by mormon salesmen.

--stop-- --all-- --contact-- --immediately--


==================================

mormonism isn't even a third rate pseudo-religion: it is a cleverly evolved, cheap huxterism, a fundamental insult to your intelligence. Whatever your needs might be, the mormon plan of enmeshment isn't going to fulfill them. And, if you do become enmeshed, every year you spend in that state will require multiple years of difficult, trying work to undo - should you even have the will to undertake it.

Why not take the shortcut and skip the whole experience?

I kinda think she's past the point of being conned into the fraud. I think at this stage she just wants closure with these deluded saps and make a strong point to them that their religion is deceptive.

I read most of this and I think you have a thing for one of the missionaries. Otherwise, you wouldn't give them the time of day.

Sorry, I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Pissed: did they tell you about the money part or the calling part of LDS?

The reason missionaries don't know all the history is because what is taught at church and seminary is carefully edited. There is no reason to provide the "whole truth". Furthermore, everything is supposed to be faith-promoting, so why bring up negative things in the teachings?

Not trying to defend, but would the company you work for actively advertise the negative aspects of its business? Look at commercials on TV - they promote the most positive (and somewhat deceptive) parts of the business. The church is no different. It's simply a corporation.

i was a non-believing missionary[ family pressure] who abandoned my mission after 7 months, one of the best questions from a potential convert to my mission companion was this: didn't your prophet joseph smith have a revelation from god saying some revelations are from god, some are from man, and some are from the devil [all true] he then asked how did we know the burning in our bosom was from god and not the devil, this guy was priceless, i can't believe i kept a straight face, just tell em to f' off

If you are not careful.

Remember these guys are PROFESSIONAL cult recruiters. I know because I use to be one and baptized 100 people on my mission by in the 80's.

Just walk away and say "No Thank You".

The goal is it trick you and convince you to get baptized...

If you have no intention of becoming a mormon, why are you going through all this? To deconvert the Mishies?

"those missionaries, they're such nice boys! I don't want to hurt their feelings."

They are neither nice boys nor are they interested in you other than as a number - a notch in their belt.

What they are: they are mean-spirited little teenaged vampire-bastards out to convince you through lies, false sentiments, and bullying that their cult (which you've already proven they know absolutely nothing about) is better than anything you already have going for you. Where is the sense in that?

They are the barely-literate tools of a politically fascist cult that only wants to suck the intelligence, money, and free will out of you, the victim. Where is the spirituality in that?

You're a PhD student but perhaps you haven't learned yet to edit out what is useless or unimportant in a thesis. Mormonism, their cult, and their human tools are all USELESS in the practice of living life. In fact, not only are they useless, they are counterproductive to the living of a good life.

Hang up the phone on them already. Good luck and best wishes.

They don't know the real reasons people don't join if they are not fully informed.

They can discount it all as Satan meddling, but that does not discount the actual history that most of the missionaries, mission presidents, bishops, etc, know nothing about as they have been fed the white washed version for "faith promoting" and based their testimony on that.

Give them copies, if you want to, of all of your reasons based on their own history that are important elements to making your decision. It's your right to make those decisions, not theirs.
They need to learn to respect your honorable concerns and not discount them flippantly.

Keep it up. Keep informing them! Not everyone is as dedicated to the truth as you are. They need to know what the real reasons for not joining are not not rely on rote platitudes!