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Posted by: Theofrak ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 09:53AM

From http://www.theofrak.com/2012/05/sexism-in-traditional-religion.html

Religion has a bad track record with women's issues. From antiquated gender roles to outright misogyny, women have suffered greatly under traditional religion. And yet, paradoxically, women tend to be more devoutly religious than men.

This week, a group representing 80% of America's Catholic nuns is meeting in Washington to decide how to respond to the Vatican doctrinal assessment that accused the group of espousing "radical feminism" and focusing too much on social justice issues and not fighting against contraception, abortion and same sex marriage. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/29/nuns-at-odds-with-the-vatican/

Too much social justice? We can't have that. And radical feminism, including radical ideas like allowing women to participate in the decision of when to have children? Oh the horror! Better to let men in funny hats make all of the important decisions for women.

Among "Christian" religions, the LDS church (Mormonism) has to be among the worst when it comes to sexist attitudes.

Mormon women have absolutely no power in the LDS church.

No woman can be a mission president, bishop, stake president, or general authority, or hold any ecclesiastical office with power over a man.

Mormon women cannot receive ecclesiastical forgiveness from other women. Only a man can grant forgiveness on behalf of God and "his" church.

All women's organizations in Mormonism are "auxiliaries" with no control over their own funding or selection of leaders.
Women can't organize or hold events (even women-only events) without the blessing of a male "priesthood" leader, who has to "preside" at the meeting.

Even a 12-year old deacon has more authority in the church than an Mormon woman.

Women have to swear oaths of obedience to their husbands in LDS temples (this was recently watered down so that a woman only has to swear to obey her husband as long as he is obeying God).

Women can't know the "new name" of her husband (in LDS temple rituals), but her her husband gets to know her "new name."

Women have to veil their faces during parts of the temple ritual, such as during prayer (consider the symbolism -- women can't approach God directly). Men do not wear veils.

Feminism is a dirty word in the LDS church. Boyd K. Packer, one of the Mormon Twelve Apostles, has indicated that the three biggest dangers to the church are "the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement ..., and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals."

Not surprisingly, the LDS Church strongly opposed the Equal Rights Amendment in the 70s.

Women can be excommunicated by a single man -- her bishop. A man who hold the "priesthood" (most men do) can only be excommunicated by a 12-member High Council court, where his interests are ostensibly represented by 6 of the High Council members.

In the 1990s, several prominent LDS feminists were excommunicated because they suggested that women could pray to a "heavenly mother." Incidentally, Mormons believe in a heavenly mother, they just don't like to talk about her because it makes them look "weird."

Women are taught that their primary role is motherhood. Work outside the home is discouraged.

Women (and men) are taught to not delay parenthood. On average, LDS women start having children much earlier than the national average. This causes many women to drop out of college and not compete their degrees.

Mormon women today are still brought up to believe that the most important thing they can do is "to marry the right person, in the right place, by the right authority."

Girls grow up believing that their virginity is what makes them worth marrying. They are told that "If you allow boys to touch it in forbidden ways...no good man will ever want to marry you." Young women are taught object lessons, such as the "licked cupcake" or "chewed gum," to show them how their value as a wife is destroyed if they explore their sexuality.

Mormon women are pressured on how to dress (modesty, no flip-flops in church) and what type of jewelry to wear (only one set of earrings). Women who marry Mormon leaders are held to an even higher standard. I know one wife of a general authority who wear a dress when going to the supermarket. The LDS Church has a strong "Stepford Wives" mentality.

Teenage girls are interviewed in private by Mormon bishops about their "chastity" and often asked questions about their sexual experiences.

Before 1980, women could not speak in regular Sunday "sacrament" meetings or in General Conference.

To this day, women are not supposed to give the opening prayer in sacrament meeting.

Women who wish to serve LDS missions must wait until they are 21. LDS men can serve at 19. Apparently, this is to give women a greater chance to fulfill their primary role -- marriage.

Although polygamy is not practiced openly in Mormonism, men can still be "sealed" (married) to more than one woman (as long as only one is currently alive). By contrast, LDS women can be sealed to only one husband, regardless of whether her former husband is dead. In the 19th and early 20th century, polygamy was the ultimate form of control over Mormon women. They had no leverage. If they displeased their husbands, they would simply be replaced with a more compliant woman. Polygamy is still a doctrine of the church, and many people believe that it will come back after the return of Jesus Christ. When I used to attend church, I heard many men joke about how they were looking forward to becoming polygamists when the doctrine was restored.

Susan Easton Black, BYU professor, summed up the attitude of the church in an address at Education Week, published in the BYU Daily Universe, entitled “Latter-day Saint women can make a difference” (the patronizing title was apparently lost on most BYU students). She said women stand out in history for three reasons: 1) being the mother of a famous person, 2) being the wife of an important person and 3) race (i.e., a woman of a different race can make a difference). So much for a non-racially diverse woman who isn't the wife or mother of a famous man.

The sad part is that many Mormon women do not believe they are being repressed in any way and report that they like all of the restrictions and having men make decisions for them. After all, men (their husbands, their bishops, etc.) speak for God.

I would be interested in hearing about how women are marginalized by religion - particularly Mormonism.

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Posted by: Robin ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 10:01AM

Politics is religion with different means.

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Posted by: Doxi ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 10:05AM

If only there wasn't so much in the Bible that seems to indicate that God (or HF, if you prefer) not only dislikes women, but is actively contemptuous of them.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 12:33PM

Well, for starters, open the Bible. You'll see the same thing in the BoM, but this way we can generalize to all Christianity.

Now. Tell me how many women are named, by name, in the Bible? Can you count less than a dozen? I do. Half of those women are madonna/virgins or pure perfect beings and the other half are temptresses, evil witches, whores, or "bad" in some way. Lot's wife doesn't even get a name, she's just turned into a pillar of salt. Because she didn't do what a man told her to do.

Where is the middle ground? Where are the moms? Where are the single moms? Where are the single women business owners? Where are the artists? Why do women not deserve specific mention in this Bible?

Right from the start, it's clear and obvious that women are going to get the raw deal in the storytelling when you find out the fall of Man is all Eve's fault for talking to that snake. Women were cursed with painful childbirth because Eve partook from the Tree of KNOWLEDGE. We can't have women walking around with knowledge or wisdom or anything, so let's make their lives a living hell.

I found no role models, no character models, nothing in the Bible that addresses anything women are concerned about. All direction with regard to professions, marriage and children are all directed to men. Even the 10 Commandments are directed toward men, e.g., Thou shall not covet another man's WIFE. Apparently, it's totally cool to covet another woman's husband, 'cause that ain't in there.

All this submissive subjugating bullshit comes straight out of the Bible and IMO, all that was designed to squelch and destroy the matriarchal pagan societies that preceded Biblical times. Even Cleopatra got to rule a whole country, but there are NO women in charge of ANYTHING, anywhere in any scriptures.

Everything else is just an extrapolation of the precedent set in the Man's Bible: written By and For Men Only. Men fear the mysterious power of creation that most women possess; therefore, their only choice when drafting the Man Code (the Bible) was to make every attempt to control the womenfolk and keep them in what they saw as their proper place: chattel, nothing more valuable than breeding stock.

The marginalization starts right there in Genesis. Why is there any need to go any further?

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 01:04PM

That's why there's misogyny in religion. It's so easy to use women's religious devotion against their own interests. To be fair, it's easy to do the same with men.

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 01:35PM

I regret to say this but religion builds a comfortable shelter many women are more than happy to cocoon themselves within. Leave the harsh reality of the world to men.

I spent ~30 years in a marriage with a spouse with virtually no interest in anything temporal. Her calling to "spiritual development" allowed her to worry over the eternal salvation of herself and everyone else. Meanwhile, I became responsible for earning a living and organizing our entire household.

Now that we are separated, my ex-wife sees no urgency for her to earn a living because the Scriptures say that husbands are to provide for their wives. Unfortunately, the law says differently: each spouse has an equal responsibility to become self-sufficient. Our children are adults responsible for themselves.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 02:13PM

Please consider changing your statement to "Christianity builds a comfortable shelter..."

While your point is valid and many women do take what I consider to be the easy way out, not all religions subjugate women to the extent that the Abrahamic religions do. Judaism is probably the least misogynist of the three; however Orthodox Jews subjugate women just as much as Christianity and Islam.

In Buddhism and to some degree, Hinduism, there really isn't a gender divide and strict gender roles aren't prescribed. Hinduism has many dieties and probably about half are female. Buddhism has no dieties (The Buddha does not consider himself a diety; more like a prophet, alhough that word wouldn't be used either.) I don't know about Shinto and some of the other Eastern religions. I'm just hesitant to paint all religion with the same brush, although I have no problem lumping all Christian religions together with one vast, sweeping generalization.

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Posted by: inahurry ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 02:36PM

I totally agree that what is being talked about here is primarily about the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam--in chronological order).

The Abrahamic religions are paternalistic at their very base (God is conceived as emphatically "He")...but in modern and contemporary times, there are serious attempts by numerous segments of Judaism and Christianity to balance this. (I am not aware of any similar attempts in Islam.)

But the Abrahamic religions are only ONE PART of the religions of the world, and Hindus, Buddhists, Native American religions, pagans, etc. come from very different perspectives at their base.

In Hinduism, for example, the male principle is always balanced by the female principle (usually characterized as a male god/female goddess duo), and the feminine in Reality is always in mind and paid attention to.

Obviously, on a cultural level, when it comes to the laws of daily life and the ordinary ways of daily life, paternalistic views have often modified this fundamental yin/yang, 50%-50% religious and philosophicl understanding in negative ways for women--but cultural views can (and have been...and ARE right now at this moment) being brought back, more and more, in line with the religious base of understanding regarding truly basic equality in many of the non-Abrahamic religions.

When it comes to the Abrahamic religions, though, I am sad to have come to the conclusion that I do not see this ever happening in any substantitive, lasting way, because the entire BASE of the religions of "the peoples of the Book"--whether Judaism, OR Christianity, OR Islam--is a kind of vicious, reflexive, virtually exclusively male-centric view of the world in which women are, according to the holiest of EACH of these religions scriptures, secondary human beings at best...and mere property to be dealt with, akin to livestock, at worst.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 03:49PM

inahurry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> When it comes to the Abrahamic religions, though,
> I am sad to have come to the conclusion that I do
> not see this ever happening in any substantitive,
> lasting way, because the entire BASE of the
> religions of "the peoples of the Book"--whether
> Judaism, OR Christianity, OR Islam--is a kind of
> vicious, reflexive, virtually exclusively
> male-centric view of the world in which women are,
> according to the holiest of EACH of these
> religions scriptures, secondary human beings at
> best...and mere property to be dealt with, akin to
> livestock, at worst.


:: thumbs up ::

In other words, "You know that you've created god in your own image when it turns out that god hates all the same people you do."

;>)

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Posted by: BadGirl ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 04:15PM


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Posted by: Itzpapalotl ( )
Date: May 31, 2012 04:31PM

Great thread, nothing to add except my usual comment that if women were to stop buying into patriarchal religious bullshit, it would lose its power.

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