As I noticed some posts from people who don't believe in deity, I would like to respectfully share a question... As I mentioned before, I am in a point where I am questioning everything, and the concept of God and spiritual worlds is becoming even more confusing as I am going through my search. Well, there is something that I can't find and answer for; the fact that humans, the human race, we are in a different level compared to other creatures. We are reasoning creatures, we have created cars, buildings, music, art,tv, radio, government, computers, weapons... we save each other lives with medicine and advanced replacements for our body parts. We have traveled to the moon, created phones, etc... So, this make me think that we are at a higher level than animals. In fact, I don't consider myself or any other human as animal, regardless of their actions, the human mind is capable of greater things that we can only imagine. As I think about this, I question those who compare the human race as part of the animal kingdom. I know animals are great and beautiful creatures but they in fact, have never created anything as big as the human creations. So maybe our origin is higher than we can scientifically understand. - Eager to read your responses.

Observer Wrote:
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...
> the human
> race, we are in a different level compared to
> other creatures. We are reasoning creatures
...

I suppose so. We can create artificial whale songs, but
the whales do not create human symphonies -- nor nuclear
weapons -- nor subtle new strains of anthrax.

By many measures, we are far more advanced than ceateans,
with their lack of opposible thumbs and their need for watery
support. But are we happier than dolphins? More empathetic?
Do we love our offspring more and create fewer conflicts?

And when we glide along the boundary between the elements,
on our boogie boards and jet-skis, are we more in balance,
more in harmony with nature than they?

I wonder.

UD

Interesting question.

Basically this comes down to intelligence, technology, and communication.

Unique things about humans:
- A unique capacity to share information. Other species communicate but not to the same depth. They don't read and write.

I'm sure there are volumes and volumes on the subject that I haven't researched, but here are some of my admittedly not well educated thoughts in the area.

1) I've read somewhere that developing an opposable thumb was the big key in evolution that enabled things - without that thumb a higher intelligence would not have been as advantageous and it would not have been as likely to evolve.

2) You might be surprised to find out how human-like chimpanzees are - which are our closest biological relatives. Some parallels are use of simple technology, intelligence, social interactions, etc.

3) My observations are that humans are so animal like in so many ways.
- Our us vs them mentality where we so easily fall into patterns where we discount other humans that don't fall in the "us/we" category while being altruistic to those in the "us/we" category. Slavery, racism, nationalism are a few examples.
- Our silly way of looking for truth inductively instead of deductively (inductive reasoning makes a lot of sense when deciding not to keep eating something that will make you sick.)
- Our penchant for looking to authority figures - makes sense that banding together and looking to a leader would increase the chance of survival.
- Lots more.

To me it is interesting to see the similarities in the world of primates.

4) There is pretty good archeological evidence of Cro-Magnum, Neanderthal, etc. that show stepping stones of how we got from there to here.

5) The human race has take a long time years to figure out all this technology stuff. Humans have been around for a lot more than a few thousand years - but that is as far back as we have any kind of written history and most of that is mythology. So I kind of question that humans are as far removed from the animals as you think we are. IMO the development of written language is a huge key to the progress of humans - this was not developed overnight - we humans were just barely capable of taking that step.

6) Humans are the dominant species. This makes perfect sense that high intelligence and eventually the ability to use technology to increase the chance of survival made us dominant.

7) Douglas Adams makes the case that dolphins are more intelligent than humans - I think he has a pretty good argument ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 12:54PM by bc.

You might want to add to that list of ways that chimpanzees are similar to humans that they have been recognized to have culture. This goes beyond simple use of tools or living in a social group. Different groups of chimpanzees have been observed to do things in different, ways from other groups of chimps. Furthermore, they do not rely on instinct to guide behavior, but each group teaches their young to do things the way that groups does. It also bears reminding that chimpanzees do not just use tools, they alter naturally appearing material objcts for specific uses, which amounts to making tools.

What is the name of the lady that went and lived with chimps for years?

I watched an interview with her on TV and she said something to the affect of: "I used to think chimps were different than humans, but over time I realized they are just like."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 06:08PM by bc.

Dian Fossey ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Fossey ), I think.

Or Jane Goodall ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall ).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 06:45PM by smorg.

Now you went and made me figure it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall

bc Wrote:
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> Unique things about humans:
> - A unique capacity to share information. Other
> species communicate but not to the same depth.
> They don't read and write.

--------------------------------

THIS is it, IMHO. Speech, coupled with reading and writing and tool making (e.g. thumbs, etc).

If chimpanzees, orangutans, etc developed vocal cords and could develop language and then the ability to write it down to more efficiently pass information on to later generations they'd be just as capable over time as humans in the area of technology, culture and etc.

I honestly think these and a few other animals are just as intelligent but can't express it and develop that intelligence the way humans have. The non-apes would also need to develop hands or the equivalent to add toolmaking along with language and writing, but given those qualifiers they'd be just as intelligent (i.e. dolphins, whales, elephants maybe)

There are evolutionary theories that discuss these aspects of human life.

However, there is little hard evidence as it's mostly about language and social structures that don't leave hard evidence until quite recently in the time scale of humans.

Some of the key points involve coming together in groups, the rise of language, rising above the affective reasoning of animals to become recursively self aware and so on.

Some of the things that I've found useful on these topics are:

Paradigms Lost by John Casti, looks at issues from the view of science and creation. It's simplistic and outdated now, but gives a good accessible basis for the science arguments. Hawkings books are good too such as Brief History of Time

Nova program on becoming human http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/becoming-human.html#becoming-human-part-1 You can watch it online.

Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind" offers good insight into the evolutionary possibilities of our morality and society. It's not his primary point, but he does go over some of it.

Sexual Dialectics, Self Reflection and the Evolution of the Soul http://www.law.ubc.ca/faculty/smith/index.html Read it in individual pdf chapters at the bottom of that link.

We are apes. At one point in very recent geological time, a mutation occurred. The brain became large and organized and self-awareness had it's beginnings. Several species of smart apes went extinct, but one survived and multiplied phenomenally.

It developed language, which was the breakthrough that allowed complex social organization.

This species was able to change it's own environment in ways that had never happened before, and that is the secret to it's success. It discovered agriculture and social organization.

Religion and mythology (woops, redundant there) developed because the new awareness constantly seeks answers, and finds satisfaction by creating them if they are not apparent.

The next breakthrough was written language, an artificial memory that survives death of individuals.

It was all a natural progression and there was never anything supernatural about it. It was a result of the morally neutral Universe doing it's thing, and has probably happened millions of times in other parts of space-time.

It's turtles all the way down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

I just saw a video on The Relative Size of things.. or something like that...and concluded our minds are incapable of understanding trillions and trillions in numbers, and how things are created etc.

I don't have a clue how the universe came about or why there are millions or is it billions or is it trillions of galaxies. Or does anyone know?

I think human beings used their imagination to create deities and saviors to help them understand their world around them.And it works for many.

All I know is that I am the size of fraction of a piece of sand on a planet that is a speck of dust in a huge universe of galaxies.
Not very important at all!

There is a human arrogance, species wide, that says that we are somehow better than the "animals" that surround us.

Dolphins and Whales have complex communication. Elephants have been shown to be self aware via mirror tests. Termites have built towering pillars of complexity when compared to their "height" put our skyscrapers to shame. Primates and countless other species have complex social structures, they fight wars over resources and have detailed interpersonal relationships. Even birds can be taught to have conversations with a rather large vocabulary.

Human's big "claim to fame" seems to be our ability to create complex tools. But is that really something to somehow set us above the other species we share the earth with? I no longer think so.

How different are we really from the ants that build those towering "hills". They have "jobs", they collect food for their society, there are complex social and interaction rules, they defend their territories, etc. We just happen to be bigger, fewer limbs and have bigger brains that need to be entertained a bit more (which brings us to TV's and perhaps religion).

So, I, personally, reject the notion that we are on another level than the animals around us. We are simply different, just as any other species is different than another.

Animals are not inherently inferior to us, it's true. But I always believed that one has a sort of obligation to one's own species.. for instance, if a beautiful, magnificent tiger was about to eat a baby, I'd try to stop the tiger by killing him, if necessary.

On the other hand, many more tigers have been killed by men just for kicks rather than to save a human life... Blood sport. Not into that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 03:46PM by rationalguy.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a PETA post... I don't put animals above humans. I am not a vegetarian and I kill bugs regularly. If a rodent enters my home, I will put out traps without a second thought, and have no problem whatsoever with protection, by use of lethal force if needed. After all, you don't see a faction of lions picketing feeding grounds with signs saying "Deer are people too!"

I just don't think we should think our selves too superior to the rest of the animals we share the world with.

Finally Free! Wrote:
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...
> Human's big "claim to fame" seems to be our
> ability to create complex tools. But is that
> really something to somehow set us above the other
> species we share the earth with? I no longer think
> so.
...

When last I worked in Idaho it was in the field of nuclear
facilities design, and specifically in solid radioactive
waste disposal. Despite many technological breakthroughs,
not much came of that -- and the spent fuel rods continue
to pile up, almost beyond our ability to count them.

Our cat has better self-discipline than that. Not only
does she clean up after herself, she does it in such a
way that the garden flowers grow taller and prettier.

Which is the more "advanced" species?

UD

Totally agree. I don't get why some people are so keen to distinguish humans from 'animals'. We are animals! What the heck is wrong with that? :oP I'm rather jealous of the bee's Ultra Violet vision, and their ability to roll around inside gorgeous flowers all day long. And I'd very much love to have fur... no more doing laundry! And when it comes to intelligence, I must confess that it is occasionally hard to tell if the cats next door aren't actually a lot smarter than the dude that they are cohabiting with... :oP

But joking aside, other animals aren't any less evolved or adapted than we humans are indeed. I can't live where the sea anemone are, and neither can they live where I do. One can wish to be 'superior' to other living things, but wishes and reality aren't necessarily the same thing.

Er, this didn't pop up where I thought it would. I was agreeing with Finally Free!'s May 17, 2012 02:04PM post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 03:53PM by smorg.

I have chickens. I pamper them and they lay nice fresh eggs, which I then steal. Chickens aren't very smart, but by being domesticatable and having the curious property of laying unfertilized eggs nearly every day, they have become the most numerous species of bird on earth with a population of more than 25 billion. That's also helped by the fact that they are themselves delicious.

And yet without me, these chickens could not survive. They are less nimble and probably dumber than their Red Jungle Fowl ancestors, and they are in the Utah desert now, not the jungle.

Thus chickens have become even more successful than people, at least in sheer numbers of survivors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2012 04:14PM by rationalguy.

Humans will use up their environment at some point and this will affect the human species, perhaps even causing their demise to a point or comletely. The concept of being "higher" than animals is a human invention, created by humans.

Animals live within their environment and accept life and death as it comes. A world without humans would be a very beautiful world I think, and it would continue for a long time.

So if animals live in harmony with this planet, life, death, etc, and humans don't...even refusing to do so.....who is really more evolved?

We humans think WAY too much of ourselves.

IIRC bipedalism evolved before our large brain or making of stone tools. I would say the ability to walk upright.

We are a unique animal in that we can have a debate about whether or not we are animals. This kind of stupidity can't even exist in the world of other animals.

+1

You have the remnants of a tail. You have fur on your body. We have pubic hair to hold our scent to attract sex partners.

We eat in the same manner animal do.
We mate in the same manner
We give birth in the same manner

We are animals.

Yes, humans are more like humans than any other animal.

Viruses are superior to humans when it comes to permeating membranes.

Roaches are superior to humans when it comes to surviving radiation.

Monkeys are much better at swinging from branch to branch.

To arbitrarily choose one aspect of one specie's abilities and say "this makes us higher" is rather speciesist of you.

I would agree that human beings excell...

in the art of trolling

...is that as technology advances we'll cease to be animals and become something else? Well that may very well be true, but not in the way you imagine.

Exactly what are we if not animals? We have all the attributes of animals. We have exactly the same basic layout as any other mammal. We're genetically almost identical to chimps. What group of living organisms do we belong to if not animals?

And the human ability to reason is grossly overrated. That's why we have the scientific method. It's methods to keep our irrational brains from getting sidetracked and confused by our own irrationalities!

brefots Wrote:
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> Exactly what are we if not animals?
...

Seems I heard on TV (my post grad instructor these days)
that life on earth can be divided into five kingdoms:

Bacteria (I'm not sure if viruses fit in here)
Algae/Protozoa
Fungi
Plants
Animals

Now, I do not know for certain that animals are the most
recent addition to the list, but I suppose that there was
a distant past in which there were no animals among earth's
life-forms.

If that is true -- that animals evolved from lower forms --
then I suppose that a "6th Kingdom" may be a future addition.

If (again - many ifs here) there ever is a 6th Kingdom,
would it evolve from animals, and more specifically from
human beings, as its progenitor?

I do not know, if (last one - I promise) so, I suppose that
it would involve human beings taking control of their own
physical evolution, and working to make a different kind
of life form.

I cannot imagine such an entity -- that would possess features
that differentiate it from animals, etc.

Can anybody else describe such an improbable development?

UD