Hey Ken...
As you well remember, studying for inservice faculty meetings can take you all over the map. Today I landed on a webpage that had some of your writings. Having watched you on youtube a time or two over the past few years, and having read your withdrawal from Mormonism for the third time, my mind caught hold on a student of yours from XXXXX High School whose young family I grew to love. XXXX XXXXX didn't know what had happened to you after he graduated from high school and served a mission and got married in the temple. But you were always one of his heroes. We were playing basketball at the Stake center one day and he began talking about "his" seminary teacher at XXXXXX High, Brother Ken Clark. He talked about your energy and excitement and love for the Gospel and the passion with which you taught. I didn't know what to say. For several moments he praised you and thanked God that you had been in his life. I was unsure how to break the news. I asked if he had heard from you? No.... I asked if he had heard any news about you? No.... "Brother Clark has left the church," I said this reluctantly and with much reservation. He was sure I was lying. "No!" he said matter-of-factly. Yes. "There is NO WAY.... Not Brother Clark!!!" I think I saw a glimpse of how the heavens wept over the Son of the Morning. He was devastated in body and spirit. XXXXX left the game without returning to play. When I saw him next he said that he had read your paper and was still in shock. His question to me was, How? I had nothing to say... I still don't. How could a pursuit of intellectual freedom and expression replace a burning testimony regardless of the unanswered and seemingly contradictory historical questions? I still don't get it. I really have tried to get it.
As Christians we are all asked to accept some pretty unbelievable stories: The Creation; A Garden; a Serpent; A Tree; Adam and Eve; Noah; The Flood; The Rainbow; The Tower of Babel; Moses; The Red Sea parting; Elijah; Talking donkeys; Sacrificial offerings; The Messiah; Raising the dead; Walking on water; Forgiveness; Intercession; Resurrection; Heaven; Hell; and eternal truth. It is all pretty much unbelievable and an intellectual paradox if it wasn't for faith. I too have read and heard about polygamous (or otherwise) reports about Joseph Smith and others. I don't have all the answers. I have also read and heard historical reports about Jesus... I throw them out immediately. None of it matters. I know what I know. It goes beyond a mere feeling or an emotional experience, just as it did for you at one time.

I wish you would come back! Or if you can't, at least stop proving Neal A. Maxwell right, "Strange, how often defectors leave the church, but they cannot leave it alone"(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, 108).

The Church IS true, Brother Clark!

I wrote the colleague back and in a plain spoken but kind way told him to (1) stop being so melodramatic because I'm happier than ever, (2) "talk" with me about some of the issues to took me out, and we can look at the evidence, rather than touchy, feely, emotions.

I thought you all would like it. I still feel needed and wanted (sniff) :)

How could a pursuit of intellectual freedom and expression replace a burning testimony regardless of the unanswered and seemingly contradictory historical questions?

The question is rhetorical for her, but realistic for you and me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2010 02:57PM by Adult of god.

I liked being a Christian. I liked having an all-powerful sky daddy looking out for me -- one who LOVED me warts and all (didn't get that growing up). But I have too much personal integrity to cling to that when the facts don't bear out the existence of such a being. Honest means a lot to me. I remember my father telling me: "Lie all you want -- just don't lie to yourself."

Just like they taught us in the MTC we were told to remind people of past spiritual experiences. Just like he was telling you of the boy from seminary, we were told to reactivate people the same way. I think he may have been compensating for a wavering of his own testimony. How many times were we told to look at some one else's testimony when ours was weak? He looks back at your spiritual GIANTNESS and knows that he could fall as well.

Hear it enough times and it works!
I liked your response.
Get real people.
Of course, if the LDS Church's claims held up to scrutiny, there would be no need for faith!
DUH!

I thought it was ironic that the question was asked too: (How could a pursuit of intellectual freedom and expression replace a burning testimony regardless of the unanswered and seemingly contradictory historical questions?)

I'm eager to talk to the former colleague and find out what the historical contradictions are? That's baloney. But he will never contact me again and engage in a reasonable discussion. He wanted to fire a shot and run. At least that has been my experience several times before.

I find that most of my former colleagues say they have read the "real" history and they find contradictions, and the jury is still out etc.. But when I investigate further and ask exactly what they have read, most if not all have only read the approved histories that are fed to the church members, and FARMS or FAIR apologists.

kc

Yes, and the opposite NEVER (ever) happens - the church ALWAYS leaves you alone, that is why resigning is so very easy. They do not come to your home bearing gifts, the do not start well, then leave upset when you don't agree, and they NEVER (ever) bear testimony against you as a last resort, of how they will stand on the right hand of God and be a witness against you, to affirm you knew the truth but left it anyways.

The truth? What was it that your buddy said?

"How could a pursuit of intellectual freedom and expression replace a burning testimony regardless of the unanswered and seemingly contradictory historical questions?"

It's the truth, that is how - one must ignore all 'feeling' and follow truth instead.

You just quit coming and if someone asks you why you tell them you don't believe any more. That's it; end of story.

I notice Mormons do a lot of hypocritical things, though, from attacking people and then claiming persecution to pestering them and then whining because they aren't being "left alone".

He chastises you for not being able to leave it alone - but his note is all about not leaving YOU alone.

You are absolutely right and I failed to notice it because I enjoyed it so much.

I told him to discuss issues with me but he never will.

Thanks for the irony!
kc

OMG! ROFLMAO!!!

Seriously, CES dude, yer killin' me!!

best wishes,
KC

"He was sure I was lying. "No!" he said matter-of-factly. Yes. "There is NO WAY.... Not Brother Clark!!!" I think I saw a glimpse of how the heavens wept over the Son of the Morning. He was devastated in body and spirit. XXXXX left the game without returning to play. When I saw him next he said that he had read your paper and was still in shock. "


Note: A drug addict or alcoholic may react in the same way upon learning that a former drugging or drinking buddy has worked the 12 steps and has gotten clean.

I firmly believe that a tiger does not change his stripes but sometimes, when sufficiently motivated, people can change behaviors. Just because you've changed your behavior, that does not mean that A) you are a totally different person and B) that some guilt trip about some kid who idolized you will really work.

That was a classic culty manipulation.

Statement’s of certainty about things that no human being can possibly know about, that's the big lie. “I know Life before birth, life after death, gods actual existence”. That is lying. You can say “I hope such and such” but no one can make a statement of certainty about impossibilities that carries any truth.

But this emotionally driven faith is a mainstay of LDS indoctrination. It’s why the church still lives despite the despicable history and why facts to emotionally driven humans make no difference no matter how much education or intelligence.

That is the difference in that we who become “awake” so to speak and started paying closer attention learn as we allow ourselves to start doing the thinking. We now know that “you (believers)don’t know” squat about statements of certainty that cannot be known and we “know” that emotions are not a valid vehicle for truth tests.

That is the major difference after we leave, we can see those kinds of statements for what they are which is nothing more than un-provable social memes. You “can’t know” therefore we know we are not getting the truth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2010 04:35PM by AmIDarkNow?.

My personal favorite line in the letter:

"I think I saw a glimpse of how the heavens wept over the Son of the Morning."

What an honor--to be compared with Satan, or Lucifer, or whatever his name was at the time.

It's not every day your "friend" tries to rehabilitate your Mormonism with a comparison to the devil himself.

Prefacing the faux vision with "I think" exposes this person's cognitive skills, as if to say, "I think, therefore, you are Satan."

Brilliant.

He made that very clear:

None of it matters. I know what I know.

In other words: finger in my ears and la la la la...

It could very well be that by telling this young man that you have left the church your colleague planted a seed that will cause him to investigate the church more fully and decide to follow your example and leave.

. . . there is not a single Mormon belief or doctrine? He did not mention the doctrine that there was a nation of millions in the Americas who disappeared without leaving a trace, the idea that God commanded JS to sleep with little girls and other men's wives, that Adam is God, that people's blood changes into that of Hebrews, that race is a reflection of virtue, etc. In other words, he did exactly what all Mormons are supposed to do: admit the possibility of error without ever imputing that to the Church or its leaders.

Do the Mormons have a class in how to write these?

You handled it exactly right.

You could never explain to this person that you are still wonderful, and your spiritual journey is still continuing onward and upward. I consider the Mormon church to be just a huge block in the road.

The most spiritual people I know are more concerned with their personal relationship with God/Christ, and less concerned with which organized religious group they belong to. Most of them have attended many churches throughout their lifetime. Other churches often consolidate on various charitable projects, and are supportive of each other.

None of us are surprised at these Mormon admonitions and threats to come back. Mormons do not possess that spirit of cooperation and understanding. It is their way or the highway.

I hope your young admirer is influenced by your leaving, and starts to ask those "unanswered and seemingly contradictory historical questions". You never know how you influence others.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2010 04:35AM by Soft Machine.

To assemble that lengthy post for the thread I just put up about the long and sleazy history of the "Mormon smear machine."

My small circle of e-mail buddies can testify that I've been promising to finish it for several weeks (and now I need to get back to Part II of "John L. Sorenson and Those Delusional Diffusionists," another example of my talents for procrastination).

Feel free to ship a link to your friend on what I posted regarding LDS History (well, unless he decides to troll this site).

I've watched those smiling sorts castigate Will Bagley, Steve Benson, Simon Southerton, and others, and I feel it's important they recognize that Mormon heritage they're paying homage to ain't all that pretty at times. Of course some of them have taken to calling me a liar as well, but as I've said, everyone expects a cabbie to be rude now and then.

SLCabbie said:

"now I need to get back to Part II of "John L. Sorenson and Those Delusional Diffusionists"

I particularly enjoyed Part I and have been waiting (very politely and without making a noise ;-)) ever since.

Good to hear it's still a work in progress.

Bon courage, monsieur Cabbie!

Thank you my friend. I will email him and ask him to refer to it and use it as a discussion point.

(But of course he will never answer me if we are going to talk about "real" evidence, instead of fuzzy, warm feelings.

kc

Same comments/statements. Same silliness. They just can't leave people alone who leave the LDS Church. They either do a drive by, or become obsessed and rant on and on about it for years and years with anyone who will listen.
Notice that he didn't reference the 11th Article of Faith.
Silly people.

I have faith that I won't die for a good 25 years but I have no reason to BELIEVE that because I could get run over by a charging rhinoceros while I'm sitting here! (that would be a strange belief). More likely, I could die the very next time I drive to town in a car accident. I have faith that that won't happen.

No offense meant.

QUOTE: I don't have all the answers. I have also read and heard historical reports about Jesus... I throw them out immediately. None of it matters. I know what I know.


Seems like your old colleague is stuck in the same mud I used to be in. Reject anything that doesn't confirm his belief system. He appears to be afraid of subjecting his beliefs to an honest examination.

So very typical of the TBM mindset

After reading this thread I was curious about you and googled your name and found your long exit story. I read it all and found that it was similar to mine, only I wasn't ever as fervent as you were.

I did work for the LDS church for a short while that coincided with my leaving. I got ratted on by co-workers too, and had my level of "mormonism" questioned. When I started working for them, I thought that I'd be in the church for the rest of my life. Working for it helped me leave.

I found out the same thing that you found out, there is a higher bar for working for the church than there is for participating in the most "sacred" of its ceremonies. And co-workers are cut throat about trying to stamp out any individuality that you might bring.

Having a boss question my Mormonism was extremely damaging, and made it much easier for me to question their(the church's) Mormonism.

Working for the LDS church was the worst and the best thing for me. It was the worst thing as far as my buy-in to the whole charade, and the best thing for making me dislike it enough to be a lot less defensive when reading Fawn Brodie's book.

Perhaps everyone should try a hand at working for them.

One thing that is different between us, is that they aren't trying to get me back. They are glad that the guy who kept asking those forbidden questions isn't coming to church anymore.

The reaction of your former CES colleague reminds me of a scene from the movie "Downfall" about the last days of Hitler. In the scene, a doctor and nurse are brought to see Hitler (I can't remember now why). The nurse, desperate for some hope that the final victory of Germany promised by the Nazi party leadership and the constant propaganda will still happen in spite of the reality of the Russian bombardment and encirclement of Berlin, begins to weep and cries out to Hitler, "Fuhrer befehl, wir folgen!" which means "Fuhrer command, we follow!"

In other words, "I refuse to face reality, just give me some more of your propaganda nonsense that makes me feel SO good, and I can go on ignoring reality, at least for a few more hours."


Too bad that reality has a way of eventually falling us no matter how much we try to ignore it. TBMs can continue to ignore the reality of the problems with the story they have been fed for so many years, but it will eventually fall on them whether they like it or not.

canuck guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reaction of your former CES colleague reminds
> me of a scene from the movie "Downfall" about the
> last days of Hitler. In the scene, a doctor and
> nurse are brought to see Hitler (I can't remember
> now why). The nurse, desperate for some hope that
> the final victory of Germany promised by the Nazi
> party leadership and the constant propaganda will
> still happen in spite of the reality of the
> Russian bombardment and encirclement of Berlin,
> begins to weep and cries out to Hitler, "Fuhrer
> befehl, wir folgen!" which means "Fuhrer command,
> we follow!"
>
> In other words, "I refuse to face reality, just
> give me some more of your propaganda nonsense that
> makes me feel SO good, and I can go on ignoring
> reality, at least for a few more hours."
>
>
> Too bad that reality has a way of eventually
> falling us no matter how much we try to ignore it.
> TBMs can continue to ignore the reality of the
> problems with the story they have been fed for so
> many years, but it will eventually fall on them
> whether they like it or not


Interesting comparison. I'll have to watch that.

Glad you didn't fall for it.

"As Christians we are asked to accept some pretty unbelievable stories..."

Why - what sort of game is this "God" is playing.