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Sexual and physical abuse, including incest, and other well known abuses and negative effects are facts of life for many residents of Mormon Fundamentalist polygamy communes. Now we have video testimony from former members, submitted into evidence for the B.C. Court that is currently engaged in a landmark trial to determine the constitutionality of polygamy in Canada. (The Court doesn't have the power to change the law or uphold it but is tasked with advising legislators of its opinion/rulings after a two-month hearing).
Excerpts from the video are all over the TV news tonight, prior to it even being heard in court and the video is posted on the Net (to the chagrin of at least one witness who apparently didn't realize it would be made public; she has my sympathy).
In one excerpt I saw, Mary Mackert, former plural wife, said "my husband told me we had a 'secret and special love' and then I found out he had a secret and special love for my sister too, and my other sister, and my other sister, and ... so it wasn't so secret or so special after all".
Brent Jeffs, son of Warren Jeffs, grandson of Rulon, also testified. He spoke of the violence in the polygamous communities. He also said that his grandfather had over 300 grandchildren. His only contact with his gf, he said, was a few times when he was allowed to shake his hand and say hello, but his gf "didn't know my name".
I hope there is widespread media coverage of this. As one of the lawyers for an anti-polygamy group said, there is a lot of information to come out about the harms inherent in this type of polygamy and "the public shouldn't be shielded from it".
As much as the mainstream Mormon Church wishes to remove itself from association with the FLDS, they share a founding 'prophet' and use the same scriptures and LDS past practices and current doctrine are identical to that of the FLDS. As I've stated before, former FLDS members I have spoken with self-identify as 'Mormon'.
If this type of headline news carries on, which it seems likely to, given the scheduled seven more weeks of trial to come and intense local media interest, surely it must have a huge impact on proselytizing efforts throughout B.C. Never have Mormonism and polygamy been so closely aligned in our modern era. I don't give the mishies knocking at doors in any neighbourhood much chance of finding anyone interested in joining and I would advise that they sharpen their skills at answering - or deflecting - the many questions this issue raises. Maybe, just maybe, you could explain away the practice of ageing men 'marrying' teenagers, but how can one support or excuse the systemic abuses that have been alleged for years, now being testified to by numerous people who were there and experienced and observed it firsthand? It has been historically difficult to find witnesses who would agree to testify. Maybe that has now permanently changed. It could lead to charges perhaps for some of these alleged incidents but also could encourage others to come forward to address their own experiences with abusive men and women (such as 'stepmothers', sadly). Here's hoping.
One thing I am not certain of is how much physical and sexual abuse occurred within the polygamy of JS. Is this apparently widespread and ongoing scourge of abuse a perversion in our day or is it inherently intertwined with this type of living arrangement, going all the way back to JS?
It's great that these former members have a huge platform from which to relate their experiences. I hope every single one of them receives any resources they need to recover, heal and move on to more enjoyable times. Their willingness to relate their experiences, despite pain and the sensitive nature of the material, will help the Court, others in the communes, and our society. That is quite a legacy they have to offer.
Video of some of the testimony (including one of Winston Blackmore's former wives):
http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=bxgVNaI5RnpAvmQPaDo96__03jyTzbZx
Link to the Global TV News site, in case the other doesn't get you there (scroll down to video links, left hand side and select polygamy testimony):
http://www.globaltvbc.com/
Article on impact of polygamy on women (hint: it ain't great news for females!):
http://www.globaltvbc.com/entertainment/Legal+polygamy+would+impact+women+worst+Expert/3941605/story.html
Excerpt:
"[Dr. Shoshana Grossbard], a professor of economics at San Diego State University, was called as a witness by the Christian Legal Fellowship, a group opposing the legalization of polygamy.
"The professor told B.C. Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman that there were a number of unintended consequences if Canada allowed polygamy.
“Were Canada to legalize polygamy one can expect that this would negatively affect education achievement (for women) wherever polygamy is found in the urban centres,” she said.
“It would also cause all women to be under the constant threat their husbands are going to take another wife.”
"Grossbard said more competition for scarce women by men leaves many men unmarried, resulting in social problems, such as crime.
“In the cultures and societies worldwide that have embraced it, polygamy is associated with undesirable economic, societal, physical, psychological and emotional factors related to women’s wellbeing,” she said."
-----
NG says: I hope the judge pays attention to the women and men who have lived in these communes and to the experts who actually know what they're talking about (unlike some I have heard speak).
Just as with Mormonism, to understand the depths of some of this stuff, one has to have lived it or at least seen it up close over a sustained period of time.
[OK, I think I'm done editing now. I initially posted this in a rush and then came back to revise it to add more info and to write more precise comments than I managed originally].
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 10:43PM by Nightingale.
Excerpts from the video are all over the TV news tonight, prior to it even being heard in court and the video is posted on the Net (to the chagrin of at least one witness who apparently didn't realize it would be made public; she has my sympathy).
In one excerpt I saw, Mary Mackert, former plural wife, said "my husband told me we had a 'secret and special love' and then I found out he had a secret and special love for my sister too, and my other sister, and my other sister, and ... so it wasn't so secret or so special after all".
Brent Jeffs, son of Warren Jeffs, grandson of Rulon, also testified. He spoke of the violence in the polygamous communities. He also said that his grandfather had over 300 grandchildren. His only contact with his gf, he said, was a few times when he was allowed to shake his hand and say hello, but his gf "didn't know my name".
I hope there is widespread media coverage of this. As one of the lawyers for an anti-polygamy group said, there is a lot of information to come out about the harms inherent in this type of polygamy and "the public shouldn't be shielded from it".
As much as the mainstream Mormon Church wishes to remove itself from association with the FLDS, they share a founding 'prophet' and use the same scriptures and LDS past practices and current doctrine are identical to that of the FLDS. As I've stated before, former FLDS members I have spoken with self-identify as 'Mormon'.
If this type of headline news carries on, which it seems likely to, given the scheduled seven more weeks of trial to come and intense local media interest, surely it must have a huge impact on proselytizing efforts throughout B.C. Never have Mormonism and polygamy been so closely aligned in our modern era. I don't give the mishies knocking at doors in any neighbourhood much chance of finding anyone interested in joining and I would advise that they sharpen their skills at answering - or deflecting - the many questions this issue raises. Maybe, just maybe, you could explain away the practice of ageing men 'marrying' teenagers, but how can one support or excuse the systemic abuses that have been alleged for years, now being testified to by numerous people who were there and experienced and observed it firsthand? It has been historically difficult to find witnesses who would agree to testify. Maybe that has now permanently changed. It could lead to charges perhaps for some of these alleged incidents but also could encourage others to come forward to address their own experiences with abusive men and women (such as 'stepmothers', sadly). Here's hoping.
One thing I am not certain of is how much physical and sexual abuse occurred within the polygamy of JS. Is this apparently widespread and ongoing scourge of abuse a perversion in our day or is it inherently intertwined with this type of living arrangement, going all the way back to JS?
It's great that these former members have a huge platform from which to relate their experiences. I hope every single one of them receives any resources they need to recover, heal and move on to more enjoyable times. Their willingness to relate their experiences, despite pain and the sensitive nature of the material, will help the Court, others in the communes, and our society. That is quite a legacy they have to offer.
Video of some of the testimony (including one of Winston Blackmore's former wives):
http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=bxgVNaI5RnpAvmQPaDo96__03jyTzbZx
Link to the Global TV News site, in case the other doesn't get you there (scroll down to video links, left hand side and select polygamy testimony):
http://www.globaltvbc.com/
Article on impact of polygamy on women (hint: it ain't great news for females!):
http://www.globaltvbc.com/entertainment/Legal+polygamy+would+impact+women+worst+Expert/3941605/story.html
Excerpt:
"[Dr. Shoshana Grossbard], a professor of economics at San Diego State University, was called as a witness by the Christian Legal Fellowship, a group opposing the legalization of polygamy.
"The professor told B.C. Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Bauman that there were a number of unintended consequences if Canada allowed polygamy.
“Were Canada to legalize polygamy one can expect that this would negatively affect education achievement (for women) wherever polygamy is found in the urban centres,” she said.
“It would also cause all women to be under the constant threat their husbands are going to take another wife.”
"Grossbard said more competition for scarce women by men leaves many men unmarried, resulting in social problems, such as crime.
“In the cultures and societies worldwide that have embraced it, polygamy is associated with undesirable economic, societal, physical, psychological and emotional factors related to women’s wellbeing,” she said."
-----
NG says: I hope the judge pays attention to the women and men who have lived in these communes and to the experts who actually know what they're talking about (unlike some I have heard speak).
Just as with Mormonism, to understand the depths of some of this stuff, one has to have lived it or at least seen it up close over a sustained period of time.
[OK, I think I'm done editing now. I initially posted this in a rush and then came back to revise it to add more info and to write more precise comments than I managed originally].
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 10:43PM by Nightingale.
My mom thinks they should legalize polygamy. Her rationale is if they are willing to legalize gay marriage, they should legalize polygamy and the government shouldn't tell people who they can and can't marry, and marry, and marry and marry...
She sees no flaw in this logic.
She sees no flaw in this logic.
Tell your mother that gay people do not form communities which exploit and abuse women and children. There's a big difference between allowing gay marriage and allowing polygamy. ALso, where's the debate on polyandry if we're going to allow everything--and sex with animals? We could make sure it's only one animal?
She's doin' the old apple and orange comparison.
Anagrammy
She's doin' the old apple and orange comparison.
Anagrammy
sigh* Anagrammy. I know all this, and try to point it out, along with many other equally valid points, but she has to find some way to reconcile with her religion's real history so this is how she does it, convoluted as it is. It's really disturbing and sad to me, actually.
But you'd think she'd be for gay marriage, right? No, marriage is a religious institution, and religions have a right to dictate who can and cannot get married. Then, by the same argument, people who practice polygamy should have government sanctioned marriages to however many people their religion allows them to marry.
According to my mom.
Yes, it's apples to oranges, and taking away polygamy isn't in any way denying a person the right to marry, while prop 8 does... Any logical arguments over it just piss her off and she gets so defensive she'll start yelling at me. It's just evidence that she's had to dig very deep to find some way to rationalize it for herself and will not allow that rationale to be challenged in any way.
I do appreciate your response. It makes me feel like I'm not the crazy one when trying to discuss this with my deeply TBM family.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 01:34AM by vhainya.
But you'd think she'd be for gay marriage, right? No, marriage is a religious institution, and religions have a right to dictate who can and cannot get married. Then, by the same argument, people who practice polygamy should have government sanctioned marriages to however many people their religion allows them to marry.
According to my mom.
Yes, it's apples to oranges, and taking away polygamy isn't in any way denying a person the right to marry, while prop 8 does... Any logical arguments over it just piss her off and she gets so defensive she'll start yelling at me. It's just evidence that she's had to dig very deep to find some way to rationalize it for herself and will not allow that rationale to be challenged in any way.
I do appreciate your response. It makes me feel like I'm not the crazy one when trying to discuss this with my deeply TBM family.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 01:34AM by vhainya.
...they take away my one reason. Guess I'll have to be normal now.
After all, if religion decides the matter and their religion says they need to be married and they can find a religious leader to perform the ceremony...?
I'm guessing your mother hasn't considered this nor has she considered that the involvement in Proposition 8 was a direct violation of the 11th article of faith. Maybe they need to ammend that one to add the words "except gays" on it. ;)
I'm guessing your mother hasn't considered this nor has she considered that the involvement in Proposition 8 was a direct violation of the 11th article of faith. Maybe they need to ammend that one to add the words "except gays" on it. ;)
Rebeckah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After all, if religion decides the matter and
> their religion says they need to be married and
> they can find a religious leader to perform the
> ceremony...?
>
> I'm guessing your mother hasn't considered this
> nor has she considered that the involvement in
> Proposition 8 was a direct violation of the 11th
> article of faith. Maybe they need to ammend that
> one to add the words "except gays" on it. ;)
This is a good point. She has a lot of cog dis over this. She accepts homosexuality as being innate, knows that the church's position to make gay people straight and to marry straight is psychologically damaging to the person and their families, and that they need the same intimacy as anyone else, but they shouldn't get married because polygamists can't legally marry more than one woman. States she doesn't agree with the polygamist lifestyle, but it's just the "principle" of how government shouldn't be involved in people's personal lives. Point out that the Prop 8 is doing just that and the conversation turns to this: "No it isn't."
"But gays could marry before Prop 8."
"Everyone just wants to government to get involved and legislate everything!"
"But that's what Prop 8 is doing."
"No it isn't.
Her logic is so messed up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 12:48PM by vhainya.
-------------------------------------------------------
> After all, if religion decides the matter and
> their religion says they need to be married and
> they can find a religious leader to perform the
> ceremony...?
>
> I'm guessing your mother hasn't considered this
> nor has she considered that the involvement in
> Proposition 8 was a direct violation of the 11th
> article of faith. Maybe they need to ammend that
> one to add the words "except gays" on it. ;)
This is a good point. She has a lot of cog dis over this. She accepts homosexuality as being innate, knows that the church's position to make gay people straight and to marry straight is psychologically damaging to the person and their families, and that they need the same intimacy as anyone else, but they shouldn't get married because polygamists can't legally marry more than one woman. States she doesn't agree with the polygamist lifestyle, but it's just the "principle" of how government shouldn't be involved in people's personal lives. Point out that the Prop 8 is doing just that and the conversation turns to this: "No it isn't."
"But gays could marry before Prop 8."
"Everyone just wants to government to get involved and legislate everything!"
"But that's what Prop 8 is doing."
"No it isn't.
Her logic is so messed up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 12:48PM by vhainya.
I so appreciate your excellent report.
Polygamy hangs like a millstone around the LDS church: whether or not they practice it now, they popularized it in North America, becoming the exemplar for every tin-horn 'prophet' to follow their own.
To this very day, "polygamy" is synonymous with "mormon" - and my but the LDS crowd resent it. <snort>
To this very day, "polygamy" is synonymous with "mormon" - and my but the LDS crowd resent it. <snort>
When I asked the managing editor if he thought this would make a good feature piece, his said, "Sure, and while you're at it, would you ask them if the mayor (of Logan!) is a polygamist?"
Because for all the fun I've had exposing the lighter side of Mormon crazies, the darker side needs to be out in the sunlight as well...