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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 11:32AM

Original thread: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,500823


SL Cabbie alerted me that my link did not work (I was on a mobile and the link doesn't work on desktops/laptops apparently).

So to that, here it is properly.

http://youtu.be/7ImvlS8PLIo?t=2m7s

Lecture by Lawrence Krauss entitled: 'A Universe From Nothing'


Summary:


What was before the Big Bang?

What made the Big Bang, universe and us?

By measuring the background microwave radiation from the big bang, cosmologists can go back in time to the point at which the universe was so hot, the radiation can no longer be measured. This is like a wall, blocking off "visibility" of the universe's space-time center. They can look for the wall all around the universe in each direction and determine the distances from us to build a map of the geometry of the universe. This geometry gives us the curvature of the entire universe.

That curvature tells us a very important result: that the universe is flat. A flat universe started, at the big bang, with a net energy of zero.

Zero total energy means the universe probably, very likely, started from nothing (complete emptiness), except the random virtual events of quantum/particle/energy fluctuations (still at net zero energy) around the zero point. In other words, a universe didn't need a creator. And before the big bang, there was nothing. That nothing is exactly what is needed to start the big bang. We came from nothing.

Nothing is the essential ingredient to everything.

That, and one other thing (not really discussed much by Lawrence Krauss), probablility. Nothing mixed with probability will always give something.


Now for my own thoughts:

The next question is, if everything we see and measure is from nothing, and probability is needed for something, where did probability come from?

You can't measure probability like radiation, mass, etc. And yet, probability is essentially omnipotent and omnipresent. It influences every event down to the most fundamental level (quantum). You can't stop it. You can't block it. You can't alter it. You can't catch it and hold it in your hand or your detector or your container. Probability isn't really something. It isn't exactly nothing, though. Probability is the guiding principle of everything in the universe, living or nonliving, near or far, big or small, now or anytime.

. . . . . Before the big bang, there was probability. And nothing. . . .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2012 12:45PM by Jesus Smith.

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Posted by: Truthseeker ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 11:37AM

The universe, gawd was not created until man evolved the capacity for self delusion.

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Posted by: hobblecreek ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 03:30PM

Another review of Krauss' book:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/a-universe-from-nothing-by-lawrence-m-krauss.html

"Relativistic-quantum-field-theoretical vacuum states — no less than giraffes or refrigerators or solar systems — are particular arrangements of elementary physical stuff. The true relativistic-quantum-field- theoretical equivalent to there not being any physical stuff at all isn’t this or that particular arrangement of the fields — what it is (obviously, and ineluctably, and on the contrary) is the simple absence of the fields! The fact that some arrangements of fields happen to correspond to the existence of particles and some don’t is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that some of the possible arrangements of my fingers happen to correspond to the existence of a fist and some don’t. And the fact that particles can pop in and out of existence, over time, as those fields rearrange themselves, is not a whit more mysterious than the fact that fists can pop in and out of existence, over time, as my fingers rearrange themselves. And none of these poppings — if you look at them aright — amount to anything even remotely in the neighborhood of a creation from nothing.

Krauss, mind you, has heard this kind of talk before, and it makes him crazy. A century ago, it seems to him, nobody would have made so much as a peep about referring to a stretch of space without any material particles in it as “nothing.” And now that he and his colleagues think they have a way of showing how everything there is could imaginably have emerged from a stretch of space like that, the nut cases are moving the goal posts. He complains that “some philosophers and many theologians define and redefine ‘nothing’ as not being any of the versions of nothing that scientists currently describe,” and that “now, I am told by religious critics that I cannot refer to empty space as ‘nothing,’ but rather as a ‘quantum vacuum,’ to distinguish it from the philosopher’s or theologian’s idealized ‘nothing,’ ” and he does a good deal of railing about “the intellectual bankruptcy of much of theology and some of modern philosophy.” But all there is to say about this, as far as I can see, is that Krauss is dead wrong and his religious and philosophical critics are absolutely right. Who cares what we would or would not have made a peep about a hundred years ago? We were wrong a hundred years ago. We know more now. And if what we formerly took for nothing turns out, on closer examination, to have the makings of protons and neutrons and tables and chairs and planets and solar systems and galaxies and universes in it, then it wasn’t nothing, and it couldn’t have been nothing, in the first place. And the history of science — if we understand it correctly — gives us no hint of how it might be possible to imagine otherwise.

And I guess it ought to be mentioned, quite apart from the question of whether anything Krauss says turns out to be true or false, that the whole business of approaching the struggle with religion as if it were a card game, or a horse race, or some kind of battle of wits, just feels all wrong — or it does, at any rate, to me. When I was growing up, where I was growing up, there was a critique of religion according to which religion was cruel, and a lie, and a mechanism of enslavement, and something full of loathing and contempt for every thing essentially human. Maybe that was true and maybe it wasn’t, but it had to do with important things — it had to do, that is, with history, and with suffering, and with the hope of a better world — and it seems like a pity, and more than a pity, and worse than a pity, with all that in the back of one’s head, to think that all that gets offered to us now, by guys like these, in books like this, is the pale, small, silly, nerdy accusation that religion is, I don’t know, dumb."

David Albert is a professor of philosophy at Columbia and the author of “Quantum Mechanics and Experience.”

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Posted by: hobblecreek ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 03:39PM

"Thus, the New Atheists’ favorite argument turns out to be just a version of the old argument from infinite regress: If you try to explain the existence of the universe by asserting God created it, you have solved nothing because then you are obliged to say where God came from, and so on ad infinitum, one turtle after another, all the way down. This is a line of attack with a long pedigree, admittedly. John Stuart Mill learned it at his father’s knee. Bertrand Russell thought it more than sufficient to put paid to the whole God issue once and for all. Dennett thinks it as unanswerable today as when Hume first advanced it—although, as a professed admirer of Hume, he might have noticed that Hume quite explicitly treats it as a formidable objection only to the God of Deism, not to the God of “traditional metaphysics.” In truth, though, there could hardly be a weaker argument. To use a feeble analogy, it is rather like asserting that it is inadequate to say that light is the cause of illumination because one is then obliged to say what it is that illuminates the light, and so on ad infinitum.

The most venerable metaphysical claims about God do not simply shift priority from one kind of thing (say, a teacup or the universe) to another thing that just happens to be much bigger and come much earlier (some discrete, very large gentleman who preexists teacups and universes alike). These claims start, rather, from the fairly elementary observation that nothing contingent, composite, finite, temporal, complex, and mutable can account for its own existence, and that even an infinite series of such things can never be the source or ground of its own being, but must depend on some source of actuality beyond itself. Thus, abstracting from the universal conditions of contingency, one very well may (and perhaps must) conclude that all things are sustained in being by an absolute plenitude of actuality, whose very essence is being as such: not a “supreme being,” not another thing within or alongside the universe, but the infinite act of being itself, the one eternal and transcendent source of all existence and knowledge, in which all finite being participates.

It is immaterial whether one is wholly convinced by such reasoning. Even its most ardent proponents would have to acknowledge that it is an almost entirely negative deduction, obedient only to something like Sherlock Holmes’ maxim that “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” It certainly says nearly nothing about who or what God is.

But such reasoning is also certainly not subject to the objection from infinite regress. It is not logically requisite for anyone, on observing that contingent reality must depend on absolute reality, to say then what the absolute depends on or, on asserting the participation of finite beings in infinite being, further to explain what it is that makes being to be. Other arguments are called for, as Hume knew. And only a complete failure to grasp the most basic philosophical terms of the conversation could prompt this strange inversion of logic, by which the argument from infinite regress—traditionally and correctly regarded as the most powerful objection to pure materialism—is now treated as an irrefutable argument against belief in God."

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/04/believe-it-or-not

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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 04:13PM

When science now have revealed that nothing really isn't nothing in the traditional sense. Then it seems all theologian and philosophical talk about a traditional nothing is moot. Science have shown that the traditional kind of nothing doesn't exist and quite possibly never existed (even "before" the big bang). Whatever conclusions and implication one wish to draw from the existence of a traditional nothing is completely arbitrary because it isn't part of nature.

It's like a theologican would say to Galileo: "We have lots of philosophers and theologians that have defined the solar system as a system of bodies orbiting the earth. Your theory cannot be true because the definition of a solar system is about celstial bodies orbiting the earth, and in your theory most celestial bodies don't!". This is similar to the nonsense those critics of are saying to Krauss.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 04:22PM

I agree brefots. They want "nothing" to have no possible definition. However, "something" which every conscious being experiences, is defined in myriads of ways by science. As something exists and is (in some places) well defined, it's opposite, "nothing" must be defined. The opposite cannot float out there without a definition while "something" is tied down.

Furthermore, when theologians confront the regression of where did God come from, they often argue that God always was. But what is the difference between arguing in favor of an eternally existing creator versus an eternal "nothing" defined simply yet still capable of producing everything?

Which is more reasonable? The least complex.

Q.E.D. (lol)

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 04:29PM

I love Native American writer N. Scott Momaday's essay "The Way to Rainy Mountain" where he speaks of his Kiowa people and their storytelling heritage... Working from inexact memory...

>Because they could not do otherwise, the Kiowa made up a story about it...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rainy-Mountain-Scott-Momaday/dp/0826304362

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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 04:38PM

Perhaps that's why they wish to cling to the traditional version of nothing, a nothing where nothing extraordinary can happen. But the fact of the matter is that things do not have to have an opposite, it's just a bunch of rethorical nonsense. Lots of things don't have an opposite, lots of concepts do not have an opposite. And the opposite of something doesn't have to be what we imagine it to be.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 07:49PM

David Alpert is a highly respected quantum physicist.
I highly recommend his book “Quantum Mechanics and Experience” to anyone interested in the debate in quantum mechanic's regarding the role of mind.

His comments on Krauss are right on, and I am confident virtually all theoretical physicists would agree with this assessment. Krauss is too caught up in his own atheistic rhetoric to be open-minded about the application of science to religion. I am reminded of the comment I read in Kip Thorne's book, Black Holes & Time warps: "Cosmologists are usually wrong but seldom in doubt." This quote fits Krauss perfectly!

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 08:02PM

Seriously... Sounds like like a silly sales pitch to me, and that shot at Strauss is strictly an hominem...

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 03:37PM

I sent Jesus Smith's link to my dad the retired rocket scientist...

This stuff has an eerie "Zen Quality" to it on first listening...

>"The weight of nothing"

Inside jokes "In a log log plot, everything is a straight line"

>"By nothing, I don't mean nothing, I mean nothing"

>"Nothing is nothing more than a bubbling brew of particles popping in and out of existence"

>"Empty space not empty"

>"We calculate that the energy of empty space is a gazillion times the energy of everything we can see."

>Ah, "Kepler spent twenty years crunching the numbers without a Macintosh."

Spoken by a member of the one true church of the one-button mouse...

>"We wanted to know which universe we lived in."

>"If we lived in a closed universe, if we could see far enough, we could see the back of our heads."

>Experiments about "dark matter" which, apparently is all around us... Look for some crackpot theologian to use that one as proof Satan exists...

>A "flat universe is the only mathematically beautiful universe."

>"Quantum fluctuations can produce a universe."

>"If the universe isn't flat, then we're worried."

>"If we had a big enough triangle, we could measure the curvature of space."

>Ah, here we go... The stuff I queried Jesus about...

>"We can't see all the way to the Big Bang... Back then it gets hotter and hotter, and then the universe becomes opaque...

>"Evidence for the Big Bang was discovered by two fellows in New Jersey who didn't know what they were doing but won the Nobel Prize anyway."

Hah! A blast of my exhaust pipe to the critics of Christopher Columbus after that one...

>The universe has zero total energy, and it could have orinated from nothing. If you have nothing in Quantum Mechanics you'll always get something."

>"Forunately or unfortunately, mathematics is the language of nature."

I love the way he points out that this is the only time in the age of the universe where we can "see" the other galaxies,that a hundred billion years in the future physicists will derive all the same mathematical principles, understand quantum mechanics, and look out there and be "very wrong" because they only see empty space..

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 03:53PM

So that's the good news for the high priests and TBM's. Wait long enough and scientist won't be able to point to the big bang with any evidence, and instead scientists will have to take it on faith from the holy books written by today's scientists.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 03:43PM

from whence the Big Bang sprang...and that mathematics has gone past the Cosmic "wall" and gone all the way back thru the background radiation "wall" to the singularity. There is also the concept of 10 or 11 dimensions with the String Theory and the M-Theory...it really gets complex and mind boggling!
just sayin!

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Posted by: rgg ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 04:23PM

I am NOT condoning dogma however, many schools of thought say that we came from nothing and we will return to nothing.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 05:50PM

The essence of Shiva is, of course,... nothing.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 04:39PM


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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 05:54PM

thats an awesome truth!! deep space hubble pics...i used to be active with Galaxy Zoo #2 which is a data base where you get to classify galaxies from the deep space fotos...ya first have to pass a test...but what a wonder this here universe is...and to think that some say there are an "infinite" number of Universes...
just sayin!

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 06:18PM

Even among some physicists there is dissent that the current wave of redefining "nothing" is convenient for attempting to answer big questions, but is actually just equivocation that really only breaks new ground by dealing with matter on a quantum level previously unknown. Just because you attempt to redefine "nothing," it does not mean you've answered the real question, "why is there something rather than nothing?"

Any way you slice it, we're all left with jumping to a supernatural answer for the origin of our existence. All sides agree that it's absurd to simply believe in an infinite regression of gods or eternally existent matter that has no cause. So we need to choose which supernatural paradigm we'll embrace as the answer to "why is there something rather than nothing? There is no answer yet found in science or materialism.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 06:48PM

Tall man, have you read Krauss's book? Can you give me a testable definition of ”supernatural”?

”supernatural” is less well defined than even Lawrence's nothing. To claim that it holds an answer is nothing more than another version of the ”god of the gaps”. At least physics is reducing the mystery to knowns. Theology had never improved the situation. It's an ever receding space as science fills the gap.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2012 06:48PM by Jesus Smith.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 07:38PM

Some comments on probability:

"Nothing is the essential ingredient to everything."

Nothing is not an "ingredient" of anything! Moreover, conceived of as the absense of anything and everything, nothing does not cause anything. Krauss (and the language of modern physics) often use the word "nothing" in the context of empty space and the absense of matter and net energy. This is not the same traditional definition of "nothing" in either philosophy or theology, as the absense of anything and everything.

"Nothing mixed with probability will always give something."

In the quantum sense, in an infinite universe the probability of something arising from nothing is 1. This is because "nothing" encompasses quantum fields and fluctuations that eventually will bring about all probabilities. The probably of something arising out of nothing in the philosophical or theological sense of "nothing" is 0, unless one postulates a creator God as somehow separate from the universe he/she creates. This is problematic for reasons you pointed out in another comment.

"The next question is, if everything we see and measure is from nothing, and probability is needed for something, where did probability come from?"

First, probability is NOT "needed" for anything, not even quantum mechanics. In science, things happen by causal or random processes. Probability is not a dynamic force that brings about any particular outcome of the evolving quantum wave function. One state merely encompasses the probabilities of future states given the properties of the wave function and quantum entanglement.

Thus, probability is a mathematical construct. It is not an entity or driving force that comes from some place, other than human minds who apply mathematical concepts to physical reality.

Now the question has been raised, given the close relationship between mathematics and physics, whether mathematics enjoys a kind of Platonic existence as part of reality itself, separate from human minds. (See Roger Penrose, Road to Reality, Chapter 1) It is certainly quite remarkable just how wonderfully the universe coincides with mathematical principles, in a deep and complex way. (Like the existence of mind, another mystery of the universe) But even if you take that view, I do not think any theoretical physicist would claim that "probability" or any other mathematical equation, has dynamic properties such as to cause anything.

"You can't measure probability like radiation, mass, etc. And yet, probability is essentially omnipotent and omnipresent. It influences every event down to the most fundamental level (quantum). You can't stop it. You can't block it. You can't alter it. You can't catch it and hold it in your hand or your detector or your container. Probability isn't really something. It isn't exactly nothing, though. Probability is the guiding principle of everything in the universe, living or nonliving, near or far, big or small, now or anytime."

See above. It is incorrect to suggest that "probability is the guiding principle of everything in the universe." It is not a guiding principle. It has no teleological properties. It is simply a mathematical description of how one quantum state evolves into another quantum state based upon the quantum properties of the evolving state.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 07:53PM

I think you better listen to Jesus on this one...

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 09:29PM

First, nothing.
Your definition of nothing is not the same as the physical definition of nothing. You would define nothing as unintelligible. Krauss defines it as the opposite of something where space-time and physical laws are non existent. This nothingness is not something by our standards of existence. This nothing is empty space, devoid of space-time, physical matter and a net amount of energy. What it contains are virtual fields that fluctuate and can give empty space properties even in the absence of particles.

As for probability, you describe probability theory, not physical and observable probability (which is what I referenced). Interactions of physical matter/energy are real, it produces observables, which are modeled by probability theory. The underlying form of the interactions can be modeled, but their existence as observables is seen as inarguable.

As for how probability generates something rather than nothing, you got it. In the infinite, if something is possible, even if nothing is there, something will arise at unity probability. That's the scientific definition.

You're right though that in philosophical terms, nothing begets nothing. But why should those that study observables in reality (rather than thoughts of non-reality) define nothing by how philosophy dictates, as though by fiat?

Nothing begets nothing could be a metaphor of philosophy I'm beginning to think. Science produces. Philosophy bickers.

There are other philosophical traditions (e.g Eastern) that exist in parallel to the Western one. There is dialogue between these traditions, from time to time; but not a merger. As humanity we do not have a single unified philosophical tradition.

Contrast this to the scientific tradition. The history of scientific and mathematical discoveries are scattered all across the globe. Yet, there aren’t different parallel scientific traditions. As humanity we have a single history and a single tradition of science. Every basic biology class on the globe will teach the same principles. Not the case if you are taking a basic philosophy class.

There is in science an aspect of universality that we don’t find in philosophy.

You are a philosopher. You will see the argument from that perspective. I am a scientist, I will see it from science. We will disagree.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2012 10:00PM by Jesus Smith.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 07:42PM

Well, I'm just using the dictionary definition of "supernatural" that is "some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature."

I'm not looking for a fight, but just acknowledgment that there is _no_ scientific or natural explanation for our existence or the existence of matter. By Hawking and Krauss's own admission, their version of "nothing" is teeming with particles and forces. There's a whole lot of "something" in their new version of "nothing." They cannot offer any explanation for the origin of these substances or forces that occupy their new version of "nothing."

So even if you reject theology, you still have no answer to "why is there something rather than nothing." The spate of recent books that claim to answer this question sorely disappoint by actually just redefining "nothing." They set a new world's record by moving the finish line and declaring a new measurement. The new 100 yard dash is just 80 yards long.

My point is that the origin of existence is not currently testable. Many feel advances in science are worthy of placing trust and faith that there will some day be an answer for the origin of matter and ultimately our existence. There is none at present in science or materialism.

You're right that I did present a false dilemma that we _must_ choose which supernatural explanation for our existence we'll embrace. Many will choose to simply answer, "I don't know, but I believe science will one day figure it out." That's a valid response. But it is of equal value with, "I believe that there is a first cause beyond time and space that is the source of our existence." Neither position can be proven scientifically, and both positions place faith in the authority they call upon.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 08:00PM

Nothing is not nothing but it is still nothing,,,

Per Krauss, in a hundred billion years or so "there will be no dark matter," nor evidence of the Big Bang (because it will have become immeasurable) and asssuming a star like ours exists with intelligent life that has evolved, they can derive all the mathematics and do all the physics exactly as is being done today, and their explanation will be entirely wrong...

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: May 14, 2012 08:08PM

Tall Man is on the phone with his bank as we speak.

"It's not possible that I'm overdrawn! I just checked my balance and I clearly have nothing in there! What's wrong with you people???"

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Posted by: nonldsmichigander ( )
Date: May 16, 2012 10:50PM

1. God the Eternal Father [JEHOVAH].
2. Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son, the Only Begotten of the Father.
3. Trillions of years the two Personages fellowshipped together.
4. The creation of the heavens and the earth.
5. The rebellion in heaven.
6a. The creation of hell/lake of fire prepared for the devil & his angels (outer darkness).
6b. The creation of the universe (aka, outer space).
7. The paleontological ages.
8. The creation of Man.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: May 17, 2012 08:50AM

nonldsmichigander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. God the Eternal Father .
> 2. Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son, the Only
> Begotten of the Father.
> 3. Trillions of years the two Personages
> fellowshipped together.
> 4. The creation of the heavens and the earth.
> 5. The rebellion in heaven.

Who rebelled? It seems by (5) there are only two personages in a trillion year marriage. OMG, that would be the most needed divorce ever. I bet the rebellion was monumentuous! No wonder there's so much suffering. We're all kids of a divorce from a trillion-year old marriage. Geez, Heavenly dad, you should left billions of years ago...



> 6a. The creation of hell/lake of fire prepared for
> the devil & his angels (outer darkness).
> 6b. The creation of the universe (aka, outer
> space).
> 7. The paleontological ages.
> 8. The creation of Man.

I don't see unicorns in here.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: May 17, 2012 09:47AM

Jesus Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nonldsmichigander Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 1. God the Eternal Father .
> > 2. Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son, the Only
> > Begotten of the Father.
> > 3. Trillions of years the two Personages
> > fellowshipped together.
> > 4. The creation of the heavens and the earth.
> > 5. The rebellion in heaven.
>
> Who rebelled? It seems by (5) there are only two
> personages in a trillion year marriage. OMG, that
> would be the most needed divorce ever. I bet the
> rebellion was monumentuous! No wonder there's so
> much suffering. We're all kids of a divorce from
> a trillion-year old marriage. Geez, Heavenly
> dad, you should left billions of years ago...

A trillion-year old same-sex marriage at that!

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