I have never been a member of Amway, but I did read a book about how they do business. Amway calls their meetings "get-togethers" because they don't want potential recruits to think that they have to go to meetings. Amway serves store bought refreshments because they don't want women to think they have to bake. I think Amway is out of touch... but at least they're thinking about how they're perceived...

I look at Mormon missionaries and I think they look like geeks. A 19 year old guy in dress pants, a dress shirt, and a name tag looks way out of place. I can't imagine being that age and seeing a guy my age dressed like that and wanting to join that organization. People have gotten a lot more casual in the way they dress.

The LDS church has spent so much time and money trying to convince people how "normal" and mainstream they are... then they send their mishies out looking like nerds. It really seems counter-productive and impractical. Dress clothes are not only uncomfortable, they're expensive to maintain and I can't imagine being a young person seeing people dressed like that and wanting to join that group.

Just a wine inspired random thought from this nevermo...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 08:40PM by knotheadusc.

Your comment reminded me of a comment on Youtube (maybe it was you?) by someone who asked why do Mormon missionaries look like nerdy Geek Squad guys?

It does make me wonder if the missionary look will start to backfire. People are becoming more skeptical and missionaries look like salesmen or cult members now (at least to me). Will the church change how they dress?

What do the rest of you think?

Yes, that was me. I was watching that video and thinking the guy singing and playing guitar was good, but those young guys in their geek suits did not make me think they were cool. They could be cool if they looked more like guys their own age. What's more, a more casual look is so much more practical. I served in the Peace Corps and know how rough conditions can be in third world countries. These guys are walking around in their Sunday best and having to keep those clothes clean... it really just makes them look like they can't relate to the locals. Besides, missions are expensive and maintaining those clothes cuts into the budget.

All those poor guys need are pocket protectors and horn rimmed glasses with white tape in the middle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 08:57PM by knotheadusc.

The younger generation is all about freedom of expression, i.e. tatoos, multiple piercings, punky hair colors. Sign me up to some "square religion"? Like no way, dudes.

They say one thing and do another, and the believers lap it up. Well, in the real world it doesn't work like that. If they act like a cult, people think they are a cult no matter how much money they spend on their image.

It's probably easier for the sister mishies. They don't all have to look alike.

I look at it this way: with negative advertising like **that**, we don't have to work so hard to convince others that they are complete Freekazoids from Outer Space. All I've had to do is say "LOOKit 'em fer keerissakes!" and my audience looks, and knows.

I will be both bitterly disappointed and utterly creeped out when they decide to change the uniform to try and "fit in"...

It'll probably never happen. It just seems ludicrous to me that they spent so much time, money, and effort on the "I'm a Mormon" ads, trying so hard to convince everybody that they're normal and mainstream. And then they send their mishies out looking like they came out of the 1960s.

Or out of the 1950s. LOL!

Those "I'm a Mormon" ads are RIDICULOUS. They do the same thing when they cozy up to the Catholics to try and crush LGBT cvil rights, or when they cozy up to the Evangeli-Fundamentalists to try and convince them that they, too, are Christian! I don't know what the clinical term for "wolf-in-geeks-clothing" is, but I'm sure there is one...

The funny part of it all is that they are so sure they're fooling someone that they can't see the only ones who are fooled are themselves. Nobody else is, that is fo sho!

Black shoes, black pants, white shirt, long tie, short haircut, clean shaven. It's all about looking respectful and obedient. But you know some GA is reading this right now thinking "On no! We're not mainstream enough. We need to change the uniform. People will think we're some sort of oddball fringe group."
Unfortunately for them changing the uniform won't help. They all need psychiatrists, not fashion consultants.

(Or what to think, either, I guess.)

When I see pix of these kids I feel a little embarassed for them. They remind me of little boys playing dress up with grandpa's castoffs. No one wants to be the one to tell them that they look silly so they don't know.

Is all of mormondom telling them how handsome and grownup they look, I guess? Reality check needed on many levels.

It doesn't help that there are 12 and 13 year old girls practically fawning all over mishies. My husband's younger daughter has a blog that he secretly reads (they are extremely estranged). She looks at the mishies like they are rock stars...

But the general public looks at them and wonders WTF...

I was in Peru in the early 70s. We had this yelled at us in the barrios often: Espias de la CIA (Spys from the CIA). It was not a good time to be mistaken for CIA. The CIA had been instrumental in the capture of Che Guevarra and subsequent murder in Boliva in 1967 by the US backed Bolivian army. America was in an illegal war in Viet Nam. The left leaning dictatorship of General Velasco in Peru was in power and Nixon wanted him out. Socialist President Allende of Chile was overthrown with the help of the American government by US-backed dictator Augusto Pinochetand. Citizens were rounded up into a football stadium in Santiago and “disappeared”. It was not a good time to be mistaken for La Cia.

We didn't have the nerdy backpacks and bikes with helmets and dress wasn't as casual in general as it is now.

I only got in one fight down there. I grew tired of being called a maricon (pejorative for gay) everynight as we walked back to the apartment by a group of young men. One night I had enough and without saying anything to my companion I strode across the street grabbed one of them and slammed him into a wall. He came after me and I stepped forward when his friends grabbed him and held him off. I turned and walked away. My stunned companion was still on the other side of the street with his mouth open. We were never yelled at again. They even told one of their buddies to knock it off one night as he started to yell.

Stupid cult for putting me in that position.

Marshall



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 09:51PM by No Mo.

and I arrived in High School just after they relaxed the rule about blazers (1978). We at least had the individuality of color choice--and in the polyester 70's there was a wide range of lurid colors. Monolithic religious institutions are loathe to acknowledge the progress and freedoms of the secular world. Look at the nuns and friars wearing the same medieval garb for 400+ years, although Brother J sewed a pocket under his cowl to keep his smokes in.

I guess the whole point of the mishie drag *is* to set them apart from their peers. "No going out and having fun for you!"

In some places, the way they dress is not just geeky but dangerous. Some countries don't take kindly to mishies and the stupid way they are dressed is so bad they may as well have a target painted on them. STUPID!

Mishies are as recognizable as backpackers and wherever they send mishies is usually safe for backpackers. I've never felt unsafe as a backpacker, whether alone as a teen or with my grandma in her sixties.

I would like to see you send your 60 year old grandmother to the places that I was in in Peru (BTW, I am 60). We used to carry rocks to ward off the packs of dogs in the dirt unlit streets in the barrios of the poor. The police and the courts were corrupt and I never saw them patroling anyhow. We were on our own, well after darkness fell. The houses had dogs on the roofs and the nicer houses had shards of glass embedded on adobe walled houses to keep out intruders. I wouldn't send my daughter, son or my grandmother there.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 08:29AM by No Mo.

It is just a uniform.

I wore uniform from 1983 to 2001. in very many situations, I put on the uniform and put on a whole different persona. It wiped out quite a lot of my native personality when on the job.

After I was commissioned, putting on the uniform did mean taking on a totally different personality. I am analytical, but not a natural leader. I have often thought that the establishment of the various militias and Joseph's leadership role in them would have been facilitated by the uniform he put on.

By some accounts he gravitated to the military role, calling himself "General Smith" over "President" or "Prophet". This, when his militia responsibility was part-time compared to his other duties. So those accounts of the last few Nauvoo years have been of interest.

When I left the army, when I first started lecturing in civilian clothes, I wore heavy boots so that I would feel "in control" in front of a lecture hall.

The missionaries wear corporate uniform. And I can not think of anything more appropriate for inducing the mindset that is required for the job. If I were advising TSCC on dressing their missionaries, there is not too much I would change.

It's possible and even probable that the whole mishie experience isn't about attracting new members at all, but rather to keep young men from leaving the faith. And I see your point about the uniform and how it can erase a person's individuality and personality. It surely is part of the plan of indoctrinating missionaries and getting them in the right mindset to feel "authoritative".

However... mishies are supposed to go out and baptize new members. Whether or not the church actually expects them to bring in new people or just sends them on missions to further indoctrinate them, my point is that their "uniform" is impractical and not appealing to the masses. What normal young man who likes to wear casual clothes is going to want to join a church that sends young men out looking like geeks?

Do you think that when the average non Mormon person sees a missionary, they respect them for their cheap dress clothes? Or do they ridicule them for wearing ties and dress pants in 90+ degree weather? A missionary could look just as nice and command authority without the white dress shirts and neckties. Shoot, they could just adopt a corporate casual look and probably get the same result. Even the Army changes its uniforms to better suit the times.

Aside from that, sister missionaries don't all wear the same clothes. They wear modest skirts, blouses and dresses, but their outfits don't necessarily look like uniforms.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 10:41AM by knotheadusc.

Your right, if they want to look normal, they need to save the neckties and white shirts for Sundays, and go with a polo shirt emblazoned with the church's logo in warm weather, and maybe a turtle neck made up the same way for cold. The shirts should come in a variety of bright cheerful colors.

ANYONE, who wears a turtle neck should be chopped into little pieces and fed to turtles.

It's supposed to be the clean-cut young man look. Maybe at one time. Now it just screams "CULT!" Or at least, "Weird religion!" On the positive side, however, it gives people advanced warning missionaries are out trying to proselytize. Imagine if they were able to sneak up on you wearing non-identical Dockers and polo shirts.

knotheadusc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't imagine being that age and
> seeing a guy my age dressed like that and wanting
> to join that organization.

In the USA how many GUYS missionary age do missionaries convert?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 11:01AM by baura.

Exactly. Guys that age aren't joining the church and probably wouldn't.

From what I've read, the mishies have the most success converting people who are in some kind of trouble... or already have some connection to the church. But they still go door to door looking for people and trying to talk them into joining the church.

Does the church only want people who are in trouble? Or do they want people who are solid and productive? Maybe they really do just want the ones who are in trouble. People who are solid and productive would probably see through the BS much sooner... or they might try to take over in some way. I imagine if someone who was very charismatic joined and started getting people to deviate from the church's path, he or she would be quickly ex'd.

As a nevermo, this is an interesting concept for me.

The geeks squad dress and haircuts is to make the boys look inoffensive and harmless, when they approach your door.

AMWAY for a while, had changed it's name.

Mormon AMWAY Reps in Utah, during the 90s started the smears that PROCTER and GAMBLE were run by Satanists and their product trademark symbols were satanic. They all eventually, confessed in court, they made up those stories to further their AMWAY cleaning product sales, on purpose, while knowing it was a fabrication.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17775/procter-gamble-amway-satanism

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071001191125AAfPt0o



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 09:20PM by delt1995.

http://www.@#$%&.com/mf/7435149/8-million-inactive-mormons-ash-grey-tshirt_tshirt

http://www.@#$%&.com/mf/63878810/been-there-done-that_long-sleeve-tshirt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 09:25PM by No Mo.

LOL... I typed in the word that usually gets garbled when I write it and ended up on a very strange Web site!

He must not be a Mormon...

The Geek uniform is part of the cult indoctrination. Steven Hassan includes control of what a person wears as part of his BITE model for assessing the the "cultishness" of a group:

Behavior Control:

1. Regulation on individual's physical reality:
- Where, how, and with whom the member lives and associate with
- What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
- What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
- How much sleep the person is able to have
- Financial dependence
- Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations



http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

Missions are NOT about converts. Missions are to further indoctrinate the missionary into the cult and ensuring that he/she will remain a member for life (= tithe payer).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2012 08:47AM by caedmon.

As I mentioned upthread, I agree with your assessment that missions are mostly about indoctrinating people (young males) who are already members. However, missions must also be about converting new members. Otherwise, the church could just require all its male members to spend a couple of years locked in a camp or something and stop emphasizing baptisms so much.

Why would the church be so concerned about looking normal by promoting the "I'm A Mormon" videos if all they want to do is indoctrinate the people they already have?

Converts, if any, are the added bonus but not the primary goal.

A "mission" is a socially acceptable arrangement - lots of churches send out missionaries although it is usually a very different from a Mormon mission. A "camp" for two years would send up all kinds of red flags to the general public.

The goal of baptism is smokescreen. If they flat out stated that the mission experience was to indoctrinate, they would get very few takers. And, remember, the missionary or his family is paying for the mission expenses making it a very cost effective model for TSCC.

Here is the BITE model applied to the mission experience by an ex-mo:

http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=370


The "I am a Mormon" campaign has many goals, IMO. It is partially about converts - mainstreaming the public perception of Mormonism as a Christian religion to make converting from a mainstream Christian church easier and more acceptable. But it is also about reassuring the membership that Mormonism isn't weird or cultish.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2012 09:23AM by caedmon.

The missionary program is primarily a means for preventing young men from going through a wild period, a normal stage in life.

The church can't have that because once young men taste freedom they can never get them back into the herd.

So the older males bully the younger males through intimidation to go on a mission and become even more of the herd. They are taught to withstand the ridicule of others when wearing the uniform. They are taught self-repression in every facet of life--ramped up brainwashing by withdrawal of comfort, sleep, social outlets, etc, fulfilling every single element of the definition of "cult," including isolation from friends and family (even endangerment, illness, etc)

During the time of their life when they are supposed to find out what their own values are and who they are, instead they are cram-jammed Mormon values and taught to completely and totally suppress the young man they were about to become.

What comes out of that Play-Doh press is something different than would have emerged without the repression. What comes out is a boy who is now raging with hormones and willing to accept a faithful virgin as presented. Meaning she's right in front of him.

I submit that a young man with a more conventional two years following high school graduation might be more inclined to seek someone of common interests, someone he could love, a best friend as well as a lover. He might wait to be in love, might recognize the difference between sex and love. Might not be willing to take "any woman" like Spencer W. Kimball advised.

Ask yourself why any couple would start pumping out babies before their education was complete? The church can only get people to do that by brainwashing. And they do want them to pop out those babies because the total number of increase is going to be less unless they start early.

The template for every priesthood holder could never be jammed down a normal guy's throat unless his will had been broken. They have to be able to make a priesthood holder do things that are against his personal interests. Later, he will be asked to do things that are against his family's interest.

And he has to be brainwashed to hurt the ones he loves

for them.


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