So, the tally was about 95% "No, you shouldn't divorce her, mostly for the kids" and 5% "Maybe, but it all depends on several factors" and 0% "Yes, divorce her already and move on."

The reality is that I got married at age 27 because I was a Brigham Young-defined menace to society and I'd truly believed Spencer W Kimball's advice that any two believing adults could have a successful marriage if they remained faithful to the church's teachings. Guess what? (1) I wasn't a menace and (2) Kimball was wrong because the Church is bogus.

Not trying to change anyone's vote here, but my marriage was based on faith in the church and faith that the church would help us through it all. Now that the church is clearly baloney, doesn't it make sense for me to move on? Shouldn't I not waste another second of this precious life tied to anything church-related? Shouldn't I seek out someone to love for the sake of love and not for the sake of obedience to the prophets' commandments? Shouldn't I run from a marriage that a purported prophet duped me into simultaneously with one hand in my pocket?

My kids are 9 and 12, and I'm willing to stick it out for them, but I'll be miserable and they'll know it. Won't the better message be sent to them that a person should point out that the emperor has no clothes? Shouldn't I send the message that a person should stand up for their beliefs and sanity, to avoid being thought-controlled by any church or other organization? 95% said to stay in the marriage, but at what cost?


Special thanks to SurrenderDorothy for defending me on the previous post because, as you suggested, I'm only seeking some anonymous feedback and insight. Thanks also to Wonderer for your wise/sage advice. Superb.

Continuing here from previous thread: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,497502

I remember feeling disillusioned- that my marriage lacked value and merit, because of some beginning, some certain situation or something lacking- someone almost convinced me, that although there was love it wasn't good enough, that the love was invalid because its inception happened before my spouse & myself were aware, self aware of ones own issues;
someone almost convinced me that this invalided my love and my love's love for me, and our life together, everything.

I was ripe for another betrayal of faith as I had lost all faith. I was trained to follow a prophet why not follow another flawed 'prophet' and when another person stood in as my personal leader, I was all too flawed and practiced at following the prophet- making the me the perfect dupe.

something stopped me. From letting another person's opinion, or another leader's opinion, or another published author's opinion, wreck what was left of my life by denying a true and loyal love, my best friend.
that was another line, lie, saying that if you hadn't fallen in love for the right reasons (they define those) wow! no matter how you grew, or how you support one another, or what you went through sweet, bitter, passionate, all of it- it didn't matter BECAUSE _________________________________ a) you fell in love for the wrong reason so this love isn't real to your new prophet, or b)you are living with your best friend and thats not in love wouldn't it be better to try again.

Well hell. I guess that's the test. Standing up against a new prophet fighting for the right to the love of my life & a stalwart albeit interesting and muscly best friend. & noticing, opposing that new prophet (or where ever one is getting their new information and direction from)- looking directly, intently, at what is real.

Because I noticed that I was married to the real deal. At dinner he ate a real meal. He held me in his real arms. He argued he cried he talked with a real voice. He walked around the track along the river down hospital corridors beside my bedside along the sidewalk helping me relearn to walk one time when the surgeon he nicked a nerve with real legs. He listened to my poetry my laments my voice with real ears. He read my lips when he listened to me with real eyes. He noted me with real insight. He supported me with real money although I kicked in my paycheck. He was real. & that's real.
I determined, that to me, at least, love is a VERB. It is not a word defined by a prophet. It is a sequence of real actions with one's real time and life.

BEsides being real, I wonder if also it is accepting and relishing that I am not married to my self, or loving myself in a mirror but enjoying and appreciating actual gender or personality differences- he brings me and into my life things, traits, attributes I enjoy but are not actually part of me. I really do not need another, me. So I don't need to love someone narcisicticly looking just for another part of me. Really. I dont' need that.

Finally I wonder if finding the shared interests and pleasures beyond what the prophet advised or a new prophet is advising as an advisable interest- isn't a tremendous diversion for a life time of love. I loved driving along the foothill road in the huge full moon light last Saturday night as so many other pick up trucks were all geared up parking and driving even walking in the mountain moon light- they looked just as old as me and white in the beard. That was never advised by a prophet as a profitable thing to do but it brought significant joy. What other joys are there? beach walking? leaning on the table at the end of a long day staring into each others eyes drinking a moment in a pool of light? Hearing ones' long day before they pass out in a well needed nap as they lean heavily across the table at you barely able to prop themself up and nearly fall asleep sitting up.

Get another one, I can hear a new prophet say, you didn't fall in love fore all the right reasons, back in the day.

Hmmm. I am not convinced anyone can judge the joy in my heart for yet another ideaology that anyone, anyone else, would impose now on me.

Beautiful, paintinginthewin, just beautiful.

Thanks for sharing...

Anagrammy

Well if there isn't any love there then I would say leave. But maybe try marriage counseling first, not LDS counseling, but real counseling. Unless of course you don't see how you could ever love your spouse, in which case leave. I wouldn't draw it out into along process either go to counseling or leave so you both can move on with your lives.

I didn't see the other thread, but I can not see divorcingher if the only thing is she attends and you don't. IF however she puts you down in front ofothers -especially your kids- or if she speaks ill of you face to face how could you live with a person like that. ONe thing troubles me. YOU said your kids would know that you are miserable....and you want to be miserable til the youngest is 18? Is there a way for you not to be miserable? I sense you know how she will treat you and you are putting up your guard.

I would have a heart to heart with her about what you will and won't put up with. I would tell her this is an issue for you and her and not your entire extended family. She should not even try to have one person come and persuade you to go back. She should not talk church when you are together with friends. And on and on. Let it be known what you will tolerate. IF she is not able to respect you and your choices, do what you must do.

I repeat:

Love should be Stronger than church (or Any club!)

would U divorce because one of you wanted to be in the Rotary and the other didn't?

An Important part of RESPECT is allowing different choices, different Interests, and some slightly different Friends for each partner.

should 'Religion' come between spouses? I Vote NO, especially if you have Common Values, Principles, etc.

Don't give ChurchCo more respect than it gives YOU.

I've been divorced twice. I wouldn't recommend it for hardly anyone. It's the most traumatic thing i've ever been through. My children, even though they are now adults, still pay for it in some ways. It was so hard having little kids and not having their father to share the daily joy's and heartaches with.

I did everything I knew how to do to save that marriage. If I would have thought there was even a flicker of hope i would of stayed until it either went out or ignited.

Nobody will love those kids the way their parents do. There are no replacement mothers or fathers. I raised my stepson from the time he was 3. He really needed his mother. I tried, but I wasn't her.

My ex had some issues he refused to acknowledge. They were deal breakers. They were a physical threat to me and my children. I had to leave. He finally got it together......long after we'd left and built a new life. He wanted us back, but it was too late. He missed the opportunity to keep us together. I think he thought we would always be there. Whenever he decided.

Divorce is hell. In every way. You may move on, but most likely you bring along your baggage and have the same or similar problems in the next relationship. You could have stayed put and been further ahead.

You referred to you marriage as "fairly decent". That sounds like there is something to work with. You've obviously been married for a while. I think you should take your time. Go get some marriage counseling. Look at what you have, and what can be done with that before you decide to jump over one issue. Unless you want out for reasons we don't know about.

She didn't divorce you when you went exmormon, the least you can do in return is not divorce her for staying Mormon.

Life's too short to stay in an unhappy situation. The kids won't be happy anyway if you're not. They will sense that something is wrong either way. I think you already know what you want to do it's just a matter of following through with it now.

My present wife has just left the church tho mad me sad strangely enough. She is off the highest morals and integrity tho enough is enough, the gossip about us is demoralising itself and discriminating from holy thou arts that never end in mormonism...

Tho the result of church breaking up my marrige, parted us not over sin but the facts of baring defence against racists that attacked my family in first place, terminated me from attending church for blowing the whistle on it and considered an apostate.

I entered sin from having lived the black and white laws, and a child was born out of wedlock. The relationship was compatible and finally chosen without church interference or influence.
The lds church gave me their blessings to marry not that I needed it but friend of mine as leader shared light mabye revelation that it was good that I had a chance to start over again. But then my wife forgave me wanted me back, new how much we wanted a child but infertility for both of us and for her the seriousness of racist attacks led her to tumours rising and burst and nearly died and became infertile. We were fugatives from racist attackers that even death threat us.

The lds church then said she was such a saint to forgive me that I was accountable now to re-marry another and the devoice never went through as a pastor of another church lied and had not justice of the peace licence to sign the papers. He wanted my marrige to work and use us both for his church and put us to service and even get paid in a mutlcultured socieity and church established....

I chose thus far to love the devil I know and like wise for her than the devil we dont know...
I took responsibility to send money for maintance for child
and paid up a large sum that was accepted. The mother of my child claims to love me and wants me to devoice my wife but I refuse to do so tho love them both..

Any woman that can go for a married man and have a child is less moral tho that is what I derserved but not my present wife she deserves better....

I have not chosen devoice but to try to make it work. But I rebuke her quests that I have nothing to do with the child or ever visit her and that is grounds for trouble ahead in my marrige and not fair......I still long to raize my child but I have chosen my wife and give the benifit of the doubt..

Should I be man enough to devoice so she can have better than me or am I man enough not to devoice the choice is mine and God doesnt give a @#$%& what I choose, I'm just a looser in his eyes he he...

My saintly wife is not without her faults also, tho I still hate the pescution we face in this country, where it could be all avoided to be with the mother of my child and even so my parents would cut me off their inheritance if I devoice my wife.. Should I care. My grandmothers dieing wish was not to loose my inheritance considering she was poor all her life but my nana's daughter my mother was blessed by dad tho dad is an athiest and emotionally dead fish and expects me to wake up and realize what is the better choice and be happy even tho for years I saw dad before he retired almost wishing he had another than my mother but he made it work and got past it somehow. Ill health made him depend on my mother and trusted her with his wealth...Is there any right or wrong here? Larry....

Why you got married is ancient history. People who have gotten married for the wrong reasons or who come from cultures where arranged marriages are the norm often manage to have perfectly decent marriages. What matters now is the marriage and the family you have.

If you genuinely believe that you can never be happy with your partner, that's one thing, but I would try very hard to make it work (counselling, etc.) first.

If you want to divorce solely because she won't leave the morg, I think that's pretty lame.

It will be hard on your kids if you divorce, make no mistake about it. If your marriage already makes it hard on your kids because you are fighting all the time, then that's something to consider, too.

Do you want advice or justification?

You don't have to poke around on this board much to find that for almost any topic on any subject you get wide disagreement. Almost any question asked gets a very wide range of answers.

Many of us on this board are very angry and bitter towards facets of the Mormon church and/or particular Mormons.

And yet not one person told you that they thought you should leave your wife.

That should tell you something. However, you don't seem the type that is very willing to consider anyone's viewpoint but your own as valid - your wife must be an amazing woman.

People have already made fantastic arguments if you are willing to listen.

Choosing to be miserable is your own choice. Being miserable because your wife has a different belief system than yours but is tolerant of yours is a pretty lame excuse for being miserable.

Actually, I told him to wait.

If we separate our feelings about Mormonism and look at the situation dispassionately,

Would you want to be married to someone who married you only because you were worthy, eligible, and Spencer W. Kimball said things would work out in the end.

The wife in this picture deserves better. Really, she does. The children will sense the hopelessness in their father, the lack of real love, the frequent absences, perhaps the development of a separate life, perhaps an affair.

It is equally acceptable for doubleb to decide to divorce as part of becoming a more authentic person. He is not the first person who has told me they were pressured into marriage by the SWK couplet (haha) and the result was resentment, deep resentment after the apostate realizes he is still chained to the Morg.

Doubleb can decide to be the best divorced dad in the world. He can pay child support religiously--he'll have plenty of money for that since he won't be paying tithing. And show the family extra love by paying for other things that he doesn't have to. He does NOT have to give up his chance for happiness in his own life just because he had children.

No one is in his heart but him and even he will have to see if there's anything real worth saving in his relationship with his wife. There has to be more than co-parenting because you can co-parent really well together as divorced spouses.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding about my advice.

Anagrammy

It sounds like you know what you want to do and aren't happy about the feedback you've got. You deserve to be happy. Your wife deserves to be happy and your kids deserve to be happy. Can you figure out a way to make everyone happy? Can you hold off on your happiness and allow your kids to get out of high school? Is your
pursuit of happiness so immediate that you have to divorce right now? I believe you have no idea what you are in for. Good luck finding the right person to make you happy and figuring out all the stepfamily stuff. Remember, wherever you go, there you are.

I don't know enough about your relationship to say one way or the other, whether you should stay or leave. Personally, I don't think religion should be the deciding factor. How is your relationship? Do you and your wife talk to each other, understand each others' perspective, treat each other with basic human dignity and respect? Are you friends? Even if you thought it didn't matter who you married, there must have been something about her that you liked, to choose her instead of the next girl. I think you'll feel better about yourself later if you at least try to work out any problems in your marriage before giving up. You've been married to your wife for a long time, you have a history together and you must know each other fairly well by now. You won't find someone else who knows you as well and has the shared memories of your kids that she does. If your marriage relationship has serious problems that you just can't resolve, that would be a good reason for divorce - but you haven't mentioned anything like that, so I can't give you any advice. From the little you've shared, it sounds more like you're bored with your relationship and want something exciting and new, a fresh start with a new relationship based on love instead of obligation. I don't think you're going to find it that easily. At least make an effort to fix the relationship you have before you give up on it - especially over something as stupid as religion. Don't live your life in reaction to the Mormon church by doing the opposite of what you think they want you to do.
Divorce is hell, especially with kids involved. It's not like you can just pick up and leave. You'll have to go through the whole process of dividing up your assets. Chances are, she'll get custody of the kids, so you'll only get to see them every other weekend and for a few hours midweek. She'll likely raise them Mormon and you won't have much say about it. You'll have to pay child support and maybe alimony to her, which will take the majority of your discretionary income. You'll still have to talk to your ex-wife about the kids on a regular basis, and you'll have to deal with her hostility over you ending the relationship, for the next nine years. Divorce brings out the worst in people, and she might try to turn your kids against you.
Whether you choose to get divorced or not is entirely up to you, and none of us really know your situation. Just make sure you've thought it through and you're making the best choice for yourself.

Yup! +1,000

You have a wife who married you - and despite leaving the church, still wants to be married to you.

You state that you married only because the church told you to.

Do I think you should divorce? I don't know you well enough to judge that. You seem to want that answer from everyone, though. I agree with others that you're looking for an excuse to get divorced. I don't think you're *only* looking for feedback, or you wouldn't have gotten ticked off by the answers and immediately lumped "95% no, mostly for the sake of the kids." That was definitely NOT what was conveyed to you- I saw the majority of the answers replying no because you had a WIFE who didn't cast you out for leaving the church. Your kids' situation was not the main factor.

I think divorcing purely because you left a faith is extremely self-centered and stupid, but it also speaks volumes regarding how little importance you give partnership in your marriage (or now little you respect your wife as a person) if that's the case... and is, frankly, as Peter Priesthood-ish as you can get. You specifically say above: "Shouldn't I not waste another second of this precious life tied to anything church-related?" So... planning on dumping your kids behind you, since they're related to the wife you plan on dumping purely because you decided you no longer believe?

You will be much more likely to find happiness if you and your wife work together to improve the marriage. You are clueless about all the pain and misery that divorce will cause you and your kids. Start by making a commitment to each other and your marriage. And get non-LDS marriage counseling. If she will not go to the counselor with you then go alone. You need to get your head on straight about the reality of how to find happiness.

You would destroy a marriage simply because you both have a different opinion on who God is? What are you, a Mormon?

Okay, well, I guess again I will add my two cents (sense?) for what it is worth.

Clearly you are getting a lot of feedback that is not thrilled about the idea of divorce. Marriage can be such a trippy thing.

When I left a relationship that was several years and which included living together, but did not include children, I thought it would be easier and in some ways it was. But I did not end up blissfully in a relationship. That is something I see a lot of people experience.

I do see very sweet second marriages or relationships. Marriage is something that if you read my recent thread on examining marriage post Mormonism, then you will see I am in my own contemplations around.

I think it is for some people and not as much for other people. People talk about how one will be alone if they don't marry and I don't think that is true at all. There are a lot of people who are single, but not alone.

Marriage can be a crucible. Relationships in general can be. If you confront the issues head on then that can be exhausting and seem useless, but if you just deal with things in passive aggressive things, then that often seems to make both miserable.

There are some good relationship seminars around and some of that may be useful to go watch and listen to other peoples' relationship stories. You are of course getting a lot of that here.

Loving another person can be hard work. I am not a professional at it certainly. I work at it whether with family, friends, or potential dating situations.

Years ago in a relationship I asked "Are you afraid of me leaving you to be with someone else?" I was told "No I am afraid of you leaving me to be by yourself." That stuck with me obviously.

Love has a complicated history in the world in general. A great relationship can be great and then something happens and shreds it and peoples' hearts are broken and shut down even if they stay married through it. Some people make it through amazingly challenging things. Many people do not.

You are getting all this feedback, and I think in some ways it is a good thing if it shows you that you still feel like you need to move on. For me life is about learning and sometimes we learn that one way didn't work, but we learned something.

I feel a lot of pain for your confused boys from your separation. Kids going through confusion is a painful thing sometimes, but also sometimes that pain is what challenges them to think more deeply and to grow. In Mormonism so often the conversation seems to be about preventing pain in another person, which doesn't really cause growth in them.

I think a lot of marriages could grow more if there were a healthier consciousness about letting one's partner be hurt and go through some phases.

Marriage and relationships in general are tricky that way. They are a dance between getting your own needs met and another's needs met. It can be a tricky process. But that dance hardly is very fulfilling when one is not married to someone who they love in the first place.

I ended a multi-year relationship - nearly a decade, not because there was no love or eros, there were both, but because there was not compatibility with my general sense of purpose in life. I had changed and evolved. My significant other had not. I felt a need to explore and develop in ways that were almost impossible in that relationship. I had suggested therapy and I was the only one open to it. From their point of view it was 'all my problem'.

Problems are systemic and usually there are two sides to each story. I feel for you and your wife if you were never particularly in love with her. I know that is a painfully common story. I have a good friend who has talked about his marriage and how depressed he was prior and his fantasies of fleeing. Ultimately he got divorced.

Recently I was conversing with someone in another divorce situation, or potential divorce. There was talk about similar feelings and a sense of just marrying into obligation.

The church for so many people just plans out their lives for them. While my life has not so far ended up in some sort of wedded bliss, I have had dating experiences that have enriched me and have enriched them. I don't regret ending that relationship.

I think for me I have learned that I am generally okay being single. I think what someone else said about you considering the fact that you would rather be alone than with your marriage as something seriously as an option. Obviously you may not be alone.

I have a friend who did the reverse Moroni's promise. He and his wife both stopped going to church for a time. But then they realized that she wanted to go back and he did not. They got divorced. He has gone through some dating and more fluidity. He did not just jump into marriage. So far he does not regret the decision as far as I know.

The church is big on solid, lifelong unions and the idea of eternal marriages and families. There is something very 'solid' about this way of living, but there is something in my experience and observation about other ways of living as well.

In India, some people will marry, have kids, and then separate after the kids are raised. I may have shared that on this thread, well the last one. Marriage to them can be something of a role for a certain phase of life, and then some people will wander and teach and learn spiritual things.

I met a girl in the USA whose parents did this. Her father worked/works in a temple I believe and her mother does a somewhat more common mother/grandmother thing. I don't know how the parents feel about it and they may still be officially married, but often not in the same state or even country. Oh, and her parents were/are white I think, or European, not Indian.

Marriage has its perks and divorce can be financially really challenging depending on one's lifestyle expectations, their income, etc... I have seen women get really angry and bitter through the process as some have discussed and it is valuable to consider some of that, but I have also seen women really grow up as well, and sometimes maybe a combination of both aspects occur.

I do think divorce may be a powerful lesson to the boys of not staying in something that isn't working and also of being more thoughtful about who they marry if they remain Mormon. That may or may not be the lesson you want to teach them, and thus it may or may not be what they learn.

A good friend is in relationship with a divorced guy with kids. She took a while to understand how to relate with the kids. I had been around kids more and was better able to assist her boyfriend in one moments with the kids. It illuminated for her and for him her lack of awareness of parenting.

In my case, while I am not a parent, I have had more exposure to kids and parenting concerns than she has. I can be a bit of a floater in that regards. But she has learned and grown into a really interesting support for him and the kids. I don't know if they will continue relationally, but they have a nice relationship in a lot of ways and a rather rewarding connection that they have come back to repeatedly in their journey. They do seem to have a soul mate sort of connection which if the relationship ends will be due to complexities other than lack of love and care for one another.

I think there is the religious issue which sounds simplistic and like it is just about beliefs, but there are a LOT of factors involved with that which includes activities, social circles, perceived and real judgment about things like drinking coffee, alcohol, or challenges in paradigms with raising the kids. These all add a lot of internal and external pressures for a lot of people and different spouses deal with it differently.

I personally am obviously far less quick to jump to conclusions about the situation here than some. Partly that is knowing a lot of divorced friends and family members who have not done well with their dating or potential marriages. A relative married a woman like you because he felt like he was 'supposed to do so' and he later felt like he needed freedom to figure out who he is. He went to school for a new degree last I knew. He is working on some new courses of study and life. I don't know how it has been for him, but maybe I should ask him how he feels about his decision now. It has been some time and he is fairly thoughtful about things.

I think you are wise to ask questions in this context and clearly have gotten some good feedback. I personally think you need to honor what feels right along the way and consider that. You are the one who lives your life day in and day out. You live in the marriage. You know your kids and their ages and psychology. You know her family and your's to whatever degree you do. Families can surprise in pleasant and unpleasant ways.

I have seen some friends coparent kids with their spouses in relatively healthy ways and some folks do so in more complicated and painful ways and I have seen it be a learning process for all involved. It isn't easy. The person is not really ever gone from your life.

If having a chance at a relationship that you marry into or date out of love and other feelings is your main focus, then you may do better sooner than later, I don't know. Plenty of people though marry later in life, so even divorcing after your kids are 18 is another option if that feels right. I personally believe in considering options thoroughly at different points, then making the decision and then letting the decision be made and moving forward.

I do personally believe that some connections are clearly more loving relationships and have more 'soul mate' kinds of potential than others. Some people do grow into love. Many do not.

I don't think it is a bad idea for you personally to get some therapy just to examine your feelings about the relationship which may leave you more open to things and moving past some elements like feeling like you were pushed into the relationship, so you can examine it all more clearly.

Hopefully that helps in your continued inquiry on the subject.

It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but it was the right decision. I would have been so miserable staying in the marriage. After I got some distance from my ex, I began to see how controlling, mean and spiteful she truly is.

The children, grown turned out fine. Divorce is difficult for everyone, but people adapt and can actually grow through adversity and challenge. I think my children are actually stronger individuals and are certainly close to each other.