I was a caregiver and worked full time for 10 years. My personal relationships fell to zero. The sleepless period. After Dad died, there was the falling apart house, his paltry estate, and endless paperwork.

My dear brilliant, talented friend had become more and more eccentric. Extremely opinionated on dog care (anti vacine, raw food), devoted to rescue groups. Kept the unplaceable dogs. She got laid off from the mortgage business, and never got another job. Her blog was a diatribe of who was pissing her off. She wrote a long entry about how messy my car was. I stopped seeing her, but figured it was just a stage. I owe her so much. She took me in when I needed help.

Christmas 2011 I stopped by her house to drop off some money. Groceries all over the front lawn. Neighbors saw me and came over to say she'd gone off in an ambulance. The police took the dogs. Tracked her to the hospital. Untreated skin cancer. Her house was redtagged and I promised to try to get it cleaned out.

House full of alcohol debris and dog poop. I went through the and picked things up off the floor that were salvagable. Difficult to find anyone to tackle the job, and not willing to hire "some Mexicans," I finally got two aquaintances in haz-mat suits to shovel it out. (Had to kill all the mice first - at least a thousand.) All day job which I supervised. Found the guns and took them to her brother. Compiled her Medi Cal application.

Two months later she comes home, gets her vicious dogs back, and is outraged. Where's this, where's that. You stole things from me. I told her not to call me, and she honored my request. She took it to Facebook, and Twitter. Story was I'm such a clean freak that I broke into her house and imposed my illness on her. I could have posted pictures, but didn't.

I keep track of her by reading her diatribes. She still writes very well. I shouldn't have helped her at all because it on ENABLED her to resume her lifestyle. Her house should have been forclosed on by now.

Typical story, I know, but she's unique to me. She's the only one who knows the punchlines to a thousand jokes. I love her.

Read Cabbie's posts and looked up Karsakoff's syndrome. Sounds right. Tie-in to RFM board - I wonder how many of the nasty posters here, and on other sites, have that illness. Unable to make decisions and move forward, they just pick at others.

Thanks for reading.

And hey the research indicates on average we're brighter and better looking than ordinary sorts...

IMHO, that only makes the disease in its active, chronic form all the more insidious because of the pitfalls it creates (and the reason I know so much about them is I've fallen into quite a few myself, all of them when I've been sober).

Google up the "Karpmann Drama Triangle" if you want some additional insight on the "caretaker/rescuer" dynamic...

After this though, I would request the board take a break from this subject (or head elsewhere for more information).

I'm a little winded from making intellectual hash of the trolls, and ADMIN has enough work as it is...

That's all, just right on.

I'm the only non-alcoholic in my family. I always was a misfit. I recognize many of the personality traits of one in myself, though; some are so obvious that I might even be what they call a dry drunk.

Because I did receive the diagnosis of Wernickes, I take exception to your cold generalzation.

won't bother me much

as for a drinker who doesn't want to stop. Her choice. She may die in any situation she wants. It is her RIGHT. Don't be imposing your standards on others and you won't get repercussions.

wow, i came off strong for me. I don't think i like it, but I am hitting Post

Only did what she asked me to do.

Sounds like you have done all you can. Maybe it's time to back off and let her be. You may be able to set up resources for her, but ultimately, she can choose to use them or not.
My sense is that your ability to be of assistance to her is over.
Maybe it is time to move on and take her out of your life.

Her problems are waaay bigger than anything you can fix. I wouldn't beat myself up for not being able to fix her. You went way beyond what most people would do. If you continue to be in her life brace yourself for more of the same or worse.

I would recommend Al-Anon meetings for you probably and you should find good support there and also hear others' stories of their friends and family and just get some good perspectives on things as far as how people work well or do not work well over time with such things.

And for me, I think that the alcohol conversations are probably pretty important for a lot of people just to be mindful of around the exMormon circles since it can impact people more and people need to be more aware of such things in the community as the community grows and new people launch into explorations of alcohol who have not been around it much if at all in their lives.

I don't think Al-Ano (the group for family, friends, spouses of alcoholics) is the end all be all, but I think some basic attendance to become familiar with the conversation and then some repeat attendance for a while if needed and/or going when one needs support, can all be quite valuable in working out the inner demons and taking the outer actions needed around such issues.

It can all be a vast and deep education in my experience and observation and it can have relevance to so much beyond just alcoholism in one's friends, peers, etc...

+1

The advice above about Al-Anon is excellent; it helped me immensely and allowed me ultimately to detach. I attended regularly for upwards of ten years.

And it was worth it. Was it the end and all and be all? No. Recovery is a journey, not a destination. Ultimately what helped me most was a sponsor saying "Go get all you can stand."

Cabdriver Confession: I did. Yes, she was beautiful, intelligent, and unbelievably warm (when she wanted to be).

She was--yes, past tense; she's dead--however, an absolute mess, manipulative, a phoney at times, and definitely in things for her self.

I had to do what was necessary, ultimately; maybe half-a-dozen responsible "inventories," shared with others and therapists; that's a powerful tool of introspection that addresses the denial and our own "pay-offs." Codependency is ultimately an "addiction to people" and you will grieve, and you will hurt. I can't take away your pain.

Twice I remember now (ah, nice to have "memory lapses" as survival tools) where friends who did care about me actually "led me out of the spider's web" (apologies for the metaphor, ladies; I know, I jumped in lots of times all by myself). One was dealing with a similar situation himself...

I agree with Wonderer that the Al-Anon Family Groups may be your best bet toward understanding what your friend is dealing with and in finding support from like-minded individuals.

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

Alcoholics can go through long good cycles and long bad cycles with each phase lasting for months or even years. Although I understand the concept of enabling, I also think that there is nothing wrong with providing just enough support to give an alcoholic a base from which to recover (it sounds like that is what you were trying to do.) However since you are not a family member, you lack legal standing and could potentially get yourself into some hot water by assisting your friend. Given the reaction you got after the first time, you might just want to let it go.

It takes two to make a relationship. One person wanting a relationship very badly, in the absence of the other, is just not enough.

"My dear brilliant, talented friend had become more and more eccentric. Extremely opinionated on dog care (anti vacine, raw food), devoted to rescue groups."

If this is part of your basis for deciding that your friend is somehow mentally deficient and needs to be "rescued", I would like to express my opposition. I also raw feed, and don't vaccinate. If raw feeding is so "eccentric", then why did I see five large freezers in a pet store today filled with various types and brands of raw pet food? Being "anti vaccine" isn't all that eccentric either. Even the AVMA has now agreed that yearly vaccinations are not necessary. I know many people who don't vaccinate their dogs, their children or themselves. I hardly think this qualifies as "eccentric." "Devoted to rescue groups?" What do you mean by that? Did you object to the type of volunteering your friend did? If so, why? What was the harm to you if she rescued dogs?

Since I find this evaluation of the mental state of your friend extremely suspect, I wonder how much of the rest of your evaluation can be trusted. I would be extremely interested to hear her side of this story. I don't suppose you would be willing to invite her to come here and discuss this publicly, would you?

Untreated skin cancer, dog feces? This is a person who's lost the ability to take care of themself.

Bizzare "bite the hand that feeds you" behavior... The stuff you're focussing on, the raw food and failure to vaccinate the dogs (what about Parvo? And honest, I'm not a dog person at all) is only small potatoes, but the larger picture is one of some severe and intransigent problems...

Pkdfan2 is way too wrapped up in this for their own good, and some big time detachment and self-caring is called for.

And given that no names are mentioned, I would hardly say this qualifies as a "public discussion."

I did read it. All I was saying is that since the first part seemed judgmental and based on some sort of personal bias I was hesitant to accept as fact the rest of it. What leads her to believe that this person is truly an alcoholic? It sounds like she is no longer in contact, so what leads her to believe what she is saying about the current state of this woman's life is true? I did find your reference to the "drama triangle" relevant. The OP shows all of the players in her post. The rescuer ("I did all this for her"), the prosecutor (the labeling as eccentric and alcoholic, the categorizing as having a "syndrome") and the victim ("she accused me of stealing"). I just wonder if the other person is participating in the triangle since the OP says they no longer speak. I guess I'm just a bit sensitive on this subject since I had someone post things about be online that were based on a tiny kernel of truth, but the details were twisted and facts omitted to slant things to make her look good and me look bad. Fortunately the true friends knew better and it's all behind me, but it was hurtful and I always wonder about the other side of a story. I don't know the OP or her former friend, so I guess this all really doesn't matter.

You're a little sensitive. You should see what the trolls say about a few of us here when they think no one is looking. Sorry, that's been a sore point for me personally lately, and we all do have our common humanity.

I won't belabor this one, but the "Karpmann Drama Triangle" I mentioned above does identify the dynamics. I've found it particularly useful because it suggests to me there are some guidelines on what to do in "helping" others. For me it often means letting go of expectations and being willing to examine my own motives and control issues.

One of the larger issues I've grappled with are my own perceptual issues regarding "crazies." I often don't "pick them up" quickly enough, for whatever reason, and I think it is common among those raised in the Pollyanna world of Mormonism as well. There are often poorly defined boundaries, and the "Christian rule" that we should be tolerant and compassionate towards others at all times creates a bit of set-up.

And I'm skeptical of those who say they don't have any difficulty identifying "problematic sources"; if they are, they're better judges of character than I am. There are some particularly slick characters out there who are adept at maintaining their façades, and they manage to acquire "stooges" who enable the charade.

I've learned that I'm vulnerable to the machinations and manipulations of toxic individuals, particularly where addictive disease and and narcissism/codepent dynamics operate. Somebody once said to me "I had to give myself permission to let go of sickness [of this sort]," and I've found it helps my well-being to be able to do so. It involves some grief and sadness, but pain is always part of our journey.

This is nearly identicle to a person I knew --except in this case it was CATS.. This person had a severe case of abandoment issues .. Abandoned by work --Abandon by people --Abandoned by local society (because of huge number of cats)

It was realized that because the animals had not abandoned this person, they had clung on to more of the only type of life they could ..

The only hope in this person's case was to get them *outside themselves* and into differring interest fields.. Slowly but surely this person surfaced, and when they were given a sense of value, they realized they did not need the cats, and after a year or more they once again became a productive member of society

Good luck with your friend !!

JB

I have to agree with "Seriously." You made it sound like going "raw" was somehow tied in to your friend being an alcoholic hoarder. Why even mention that part as they have nothing to do with each other? Also, I'm sure Alc anon has worked for many people but my opinion (please read...MY opinion) is that it only enables bad behavior. When told to repeat over and over again in front of a group of people that you are an alcoholic, guess what happens? Our words have more power than we know. Anyway, good luck with your friend. I would have walked away a long time ago but if you feel like you need to stick around then that is up to you I suppose.

The reference to "Alc Anon" [sic] shows you don't understand that "Al Anon" exists as an entity entirely separate from Alcoholics Anonymous. It offers support for families and friends of those afflicted, and part of the power derives from the "mirroring" offered those who attend who can't see their own issues but can recognize them in others.

And it's an element of behavioral psychology that "reinforcement fixes a behavior" (with the various "variable reinforcement" tactics the most powerful of all). The sharing in AA meetings does create its own positive reinforcers; members find fellowship and common bonds that motivate continued participation, attendance, and abstinence.

The issue you don't see to have any empathy for is the very real truth that in all of these instances the power of choice has been lost.

you're right. I didn't know they were separate entities so sorry for that. Even so my opinion remains the same and probably always will.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reference to "Alc Anon" shows you don't
> understand that "Al Anon" exists as an entity
> entirely separate from Alcoholics Anonymous. It
> offers support for families and friends of those
> afflicted, and part of the power derives from the
> "mirroring" offered those who attend who can't see
> their own issues but can recognize them in
> others.
>
> And it's an element of behavioral psychology that
> "reinforcement fixes a behavior" (with the various
> "variable reinforcement" tactics the most powerful
> of all). The sharing in AA meetings does create
> its own positive reinforcers; members find
> fellowship and common bonds that motivate
> continued participation, attendance, and
> abstinence.
>
> The issue you don't see to have any empathy for is
> the very real truth that in all of these instances
> the power of choice has been lost.

al anon and AA are virtually the same. It is like the LDS boy scout troops claiming they are separate from the LDS church, when in reality they are simply a recruiting tool for the faith and promotion device of LDS propaganda.

Al anon uses the same steps as the standard AA faith. They are the same.

Your friend needs professional help, rather than armchair amatuers that consider themselves MDs and PhDs.

As the Ditman and Brandsma studies concluded, these groups can be quite harmful- particularly when they authortitatively counsel persons such as your friend to stop taking prescribed medications.

Although I regret my seemingly cold response to this thread, it seems I was still right on.

Thanks to all who softened it abit for poster

many many years around AA have given me the opportunity to have heard this all before.

But actually I found poster's stance... well.... broad generalization next ...... very Mormon. Must save others. Must be like me. That mindset usually fails to work. Anytime you try to impose your standards on others by threats, guilt, shame or fear.... well it is very hard going for both parties. the church has it down to a playbook

I do believe a MormAnon could be a good thing!

4 am here. lol..... flame on

I will play my "hole card" of over 30 years of continuous sobriety and membership in "good standing" in AA... You keep coming back guy, and I'll do the same... Both here and meetings...

I honestly think the reason I was a poor sponsor in my "gung ho" AA youth (where all of us do the most good) was I had a lot of "Mormon elements" to my "posturing" (after the initial "psychotic" stuff wore off; honest folks, newly sober alcoholics are awfully "sick," one reason genuine professionals avoid any in-depth psych evals until sobriety is achieved. Too many "random" factors for accurate Dx's). A lot of that was "passive-agressive stuff" as well, which was ultimately pretty narcissistic.

Years five to twelve were when I derived the most benefit from Al-Anon and other codependency groups.

Just got back from a meeting. I did not know that about you. Glad I am not the only sober alchy here that benefited from AA.

I have much to learn :) and hopefully I remain *teachable

Awesome

btw, you trumped me...hehehehe

Very Mormon. I don't want to be a judgemental person. It's hard to be around, and it takes too much energy that could be better spent.

That said, I feel like she is two people. The addicted person is treating my friend so badly. I have anger; that is part of being judgemental. So you're right

I don't have any opinon about AA. I did go to Al Anon on the advice of an alcholic boyfriend back in the 80's. We broke up.

I'd like my old buddy to live and fight another day. She almost died. They don't let you stay a month in the hospital if you are not VERY ill. Body parts were removed.

The raw food diet might be great for dogs. I put that in for local color. It can make a big mess.

She told me she did not seek medical attention because there would be no one to take care of the dogs. She did not have her plumbing, roof or doors repaired because the dogs would not allow anyone inside. I don't think dogs should have to live like that. I think you can rescue dogs and not create a biohazard.

It's true that when I got bit by one of her dogs I did not get rabies. However, I do believe in licensing and vaccinating dogs.

We'll anyway, thanks again.