'anyone' with half a brain (BYoung?) knew that if Utah got involved,

a) They'd have to pick Which Side to support
(we'll get back to you on That)

b) No/Little favorable outcome-result even Remotely Possible.
BIG DOWNSIDE: loss of men.

This was still pretty much in the period of isolation (the transcon RR wasn't completed until 1869).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2012 07:49PM by guynoirprivateeye.

>Partly as retribution for the Utah Expedition, Young decided that the Mormons would sit out the Civil War.

The NY Times is limiting non-subscribers to ten articles per month, and I'm thinking about replying nevertheless... If the comments are over on WaPo as the sub-line might indicate, I will certainly let fly...

Sheesh, seriously, this is "St. Brigham" stuff... No mention that Camp Douglas was established to make certain Young didn't join with the Confederacy (a real fear in Washington), no mention of the Bear River Massacre (which essentially amounted to giving "idle soldiers" something to do), and no mention of the specter of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and Young closing the Overland Trail in 1857-58...

I'm in the middle of re-reading parts of Bagley and Bigler's "The Mormon Rebellion: America's First Civil War." Anyone who's read it would just shake their head at this article.

http://www.oupress.com/ECommerce/Book/Detail/1527/the%20mormon%20rebellion

Edit: I just the bio on author Turner, and he's actually more enigmatic that the Old Boss (Brigham Young) himself. Per his web page...

>My biography of Brigham Young emphasizes his early religious experiences (such as speaking in tongues), the transformative effect of Joseph Smith's murder on Young's personality and approach to leadership, Young's outsized family, and his thirty-year battle with the U.S. government for control of the Utah Territory.

Be interesting to see if he believes Young ordered the murders at Mountain Meadows...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 01:46AM by SL Cabbie.

Apparently Turner isn't a Mormon...

The Mormons are out in force in the comments section, however...

Thanks for the cheerleading; it gets pretty bloody out there... Idiot on a video featuring Will Bagley claimed no Mormons dressed up as Indians and no children under the age of nine were killed. As if it was okay to kill some 80 women and older children, many of them young girls...

some of the comments say that the Mormons were kicked out of Missouri 'because they were against slavery'.

WHAT A LIE!

a) Utah/Deseret CHOOSE to be Admitted as a Slave territory

b) Mormons brought Black slaves with them from the east into the SLV.

MORMONS CAUGHT AGAIN IN THEIR LIES!
(this time by the 'Humble' GNPE!)

http://usreligion.blogspot.com/2008/06/massacre-at-mountain-meadows.html

>Having read an advance review copy of Massacre at Mountain Meadows from Oxford, I am persuaded that the massacre was, as the authors portray, a local affair.

I've read that book, too, and it amounts to an unbelievable insult to history, a smear on the memory of the victims, and still contains the crapola claim that the "Indians mostly did it" as well as insinuating that the Fancher/Baker party provoked the Southern Utahans repeatedly and insisting there was a large number of "Missourians" in the wagon train.

A note to me from Will Bagley a few weeks ago when I said I was planning to review it here said simply, "Take no prisoners."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 07:00AM by SL Cabbie.

If I had been in Briggy's place, I also would have Sat It Out;

* possiblity of supporting the Loosing side: BAD

* possibility of loosing Lots of men: DOUBLE BAD

little if any benefit, even if supported the winning side.

I don't know 'remember, Ha Ha' what internally was going on in Utah at the time, but I have the strong feeling that BY didn't have a dog in that fight, plain & simple.

would Missouri & what happened years earlier have had a bearing on that decision (to stay out)? I guess so, but WB or MQ would know Much Better on that than I.

Connor's artillery at Camp Douglas was trained right on the Beehive House...

Your implying that the Mormons would have most likely sided with the confederacy, and I agree with that. Remember, of all the States the Mormons got chased out of, Missouri was the only slave state, and the issue had not been settled in that Territory yet at the time.

I think that if it had looked like the Confederates were going to win, either by taking Washington DC, or by having a European ally come into the war on their behalf, BY would have jumped to their side. He probably was not as interested in the slave issue, but there is no doubt in my mind he wanted to succeed Utah from the Union.

Of course other than that he was a serious racist.

And BY was the guy responsible for the temple endowment oath of vengeance against the government of the United States:
"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."

So I can't see that he wanted to have much to do with the Union, as opposed to the Confederacy.

And perhaps SL Cabbie will school me better, but I seem to recall someone here once writing that BY had little use for Lincoln (being from Illinois), or was it vice-versa, or maybe it was mutual?

BY Endorsed slavery!

a) the pioneers brought slaves with them, BY could have easily Prohibited it.

b) Utah / Deseret had the OPTION of entering as a 'Slave' or non-slave 'free' territory; BY was in charge of Everything, he/they choose Slavery.

nothing beats a FPR ('Mormons were against slavery') like the FACTS!

How many TBS know of the church's past distain for the USA?

+1

Thanks for the excellent info, Cabbie. I am so tired of revisionist "history" as concerns the mormon church. Next thing they'll be saying there never was any polygamy at all.

AGAIN?

hey; the First Time it 'worked', For a while, that is...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 08:37PM by guynoirprivateeye.

I'd like to find the Bloke that started the 'Mormons were Against Slavery' FPR...
Even tho s/he's long dead, this is another expose of how Lies prop up ChurchCo's story.

Note my edit to the Wiki article "Black People and Early Mormonism"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 12:21PM by guynoirprivateeye.

my own thought is that the references to Utah (Mormons) sitting out the Civil War (how could ANY war be 'civil', haha) due to their history/slavery is mostly tangential;
just as much the reason was whether or not a state(s) could secede.

I also believe that BY was caught on the horns of the succession dilemma - issue as well.

the real issue here (retrospectively) is whether or not the Mormons would 'Boldly' fight for or against Right/Wrong, which appeared as the slavery question at that time; as usual, they skirted the issue, avoiding a overt decision on the matter.
That's the one current TBMs wish to Avoid.

Yes, I believe this is tied in with MR's candidacy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 01:20PM by guynoirprivateeye.

He was very ambivalent in his speeches in the JoD. If he had leanings for the Confederacy, he still did not want to commit, for the very reason that he suspected they would lose. And given the handcart disaster, that would be the last straw. People would conclude that he <gasp> wasn't a prophet after all.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 01:22PM by me.

me: Is your comment an apology for BY or his conduct-choices-actions? If it is, it doesn't belong here.

(I say) his acts of allowing-endorsing-approving-condoning Slavery were clear & unequivical. BY:

- ruled Deseret/Utah with an Iron Fist. His word was LAW.

- was a Clear, Unapologetic Racist. He FAILED to set any 'higher' standard regarding 'the worth of souls' than others around him.

Deseret/Utah HAD THE CHOICE of which status they would assume as a territory, about 10 years Before the Civil War.

Mormons saying one thing, doing 180 different? Yeah, I got that a long time ago.
Which is the clearest teaching/signal to others?


review: BY didn't have a dog in that hunt (civil war). Chances are Utah would have survived if the South had won (unlikely as that was).

The economy of Utah wasn't of the scale that would have suggested widespread slavery (for agricultural & industrial purposes anyway). I believe they were (ab)used more for domestic labor, with perhaps some sexual exploitation as well, IDK.

They also had Indian slaves. He did believe in slavery. He just did not want to expend lives of his people in the defense of either part of the country he hated. He may have hoped to capitalize on the chaos afterwards. The civil war gave him a chance to entrench himself deeper, before the US could address the other evil of the twins. He piously said that slaves ought to be treated right, and their humanity recognized. Which was a lie because he believed that they deserved slavery because of the sins of their ancestors.

I am sure the Indian women who were enslaved were abused sexually. But not the blacks-- you could get killed for that.

Is that better? Sometimes my posts are too brief.

thanks, I wasn't sure of your angle on this by your words.
I don't think anyone who's seen the evidence doubts that BY was a racist. While Racism doesn't ALWAYS = slavery, they've got a lot of history together.

As I mentioned, I believe BYs main decision to stay out on this was motivated by concerns/trepidation about what the results/consequences to Mormondumb and his personal interests would be, not Racism or Slavery 'straight up'.

"Privately, he said he “earnestly prayed for the success of both North & South.”

Sounds like: "There is a time for immediate action, and a time to wait and see. This is one of them."

into which they could "rescue" America with their own theo-facist spin on government.

And I think a faction of the US is still hoping for chaos and disruption so they can sit on their pile of canned goods with their guns, and say "SEE! Everyone thought I was a lunatic but the Black Panthers/Muslim Brotherhood/Russians are really trying to take over the America."

About 750,000 soldiers DIED in the 'Civil' war (most of them U.S. citizens), 100's of thousands injured, many severly disabled, while BY & company were Cooling their heels.

most of those people fought more for their Values; a few for money, some were conscripted.

In Mormondumb, the Real Story is seldom about Values, Principles, or even concepts of Christ-Like living, it's usually about 'the church'.

I HATE THAT! I HATE their 'priorities' and their Methods.

Despite its far larger population, the North was never able to fully exploit its larger source of manpower. Part of this was political, Northern soldiers signed up for one or two year terms, southerners enlisted for the duration. An even bigger reason was because the North was forced to tie down vast numbers of troops in quiet theaters. Utah was one of those theaters, that ate up troop strength, despite not being involved in actual combat. Though in fairness to the BY, the largest distraction was the American/Canadian border, where fear of the British Empire coming to the aid of the south, forced Lincoln to station hundreds of thousands of troops, around that border.

as if BY was interested in 'fairness', haha