Most of us have seen SWKs book Miracle of Forgiveness derided... Masturbation leads to Homosexuality, etc.

(however) When one person hurts another... Is it 'Right' for the hurt person to hang onto that forever?

We've seen a lot of ways that people can hurt each other; violence, personal insults, money scams, and'just' being overbearing/obnoxious.

Questions to ponder:

- Is there a difference between 'forgiving' and 'trusting' as some church leaders suggest?

- Doesn't failure/refusal to forgive indicate presence of some kind of poison? a poison that prolly goes beyond the hurt of the events that caused the problem?

- should ALL Things be forgiven, or, are their (individual) limits?

What I consider to be a Great Example of Forgiveness is linked here:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/january/15.58.html

As far as the Amish forgiving the man for the slaughter of their innocent children . . . I think it may have been a self-nurturing thing to do. From a practical standpoint, the man who did the crime is dead. He is gone. Why flood themselves with negative emotions about it? I'm sure they also trusted that God would take care of it. They'll STILL have to deal with their grief for many years, I'm sure. I hope they didn't just stuff any anger they had. But if a person can move past the hatred, it's that much better for themselves.

And reaching out in compassion to the murderer's widow was very kind. She was a victim in this, too.

I DO have a problem with a person being TOLD they must forgive. If someone harms you, what right does someone (even an invisible God) have to tell you you need to forgive? THEY weren't the victim. And I have a bigger problem with the idea that you should give unapologetic or chronically abusive or inconsiderate people another chance.

I look at forgiveness as something you feel toward someone who has made a mistake, apologized, and changed into someone you can trust. Forgiveness for an unapologetic person gives them license to abuse your trust again.

The person who recognizes his or her bad behavior and takes earnest steps to correct it is easy to forgive. The repeat offender makes it virtually impossible.

In my mind, everyone deserves a second chance. Its those who take third and fourth helpings that concern me.

The Amish folks had little choice. I'm wondering how different the story might be had the guy lived.

"Letting it go" shouldn't be confused with forgivness. My motto, as far as that goes, is "If you can live with it (meaning the wrong doing), I can live without it." Forgivness is more like "Hey, I appreciate you righting the wrong. Let's go get a beer."

Timothy

imaworkinonit Wrote:
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> I look at forgiveness as something you feel toward someone who has made a mistake, apologized, and changed into someone you can trust. Forgiveness for an unapologetic person gives them license to abuse your trust again.

This. I forgave someone once under these circumstances, and it was a gift that I gave to myself. I was able to finally put down some heavy "baggage" that I had been carrying around for years. And it allowed me to enjoy once again a warm relationship with someone who cared about me, and whom I cared about.

But there are plenty of times when forgiveness is neither possible nor even desirable.

We feel what we feel because we feel it and we all do the best we know and can to reach feelings of peace and happiness instead. To expect and demand everyone to be able to forgive everything is both futile and inhuman. There is no one true way to serenity it's all dependant on the situation.

We can forgive but that doesn't mean we have any need to trust.

It doesn't require anything from the other person. Nothing. Much of the time there is no understanding of what they did.

Only we can let it go -- the emotional attachment to unforgiveness will most often keep us in a state of angst, anger, hate, etc. and not allow for the wonderful peace of mind that is available to us. I want to live with peace of mind, not anger and hate and being unforgiving. Life is too too short for that!
Their behavior is about them, not me anyhow. Never, never take any of it personally even if it is directed at us.

One of my favorite sayings on my FB page is:

I'm big enough to forgive you but until further notice, I'm not stupid enough to trust you.

When you forgive someone, you stop them from occupying space in your head they'd own if you continue with your anger, grudges etc. And no one should tell you when you have to do this. You don't have to do it the minute the offender demands it. My mom always says if you don't forgive someone when they ask for forgiveness, your sin is bigger than theirs. I call BS on that. Only the person who has been hurt can decide when it's time to forgive and whether or not the person needing forgiveness is sincere.

But we need to remember that forgiving someone doesn't mean we automatically have to trust someone. It's OK to decide at that point the person is not someone you want to hang around or confide in or become like. You don't hold any hard feelings toward that person but you don't want to associate with them either because they aren't your type of person. You can't trust them. That's OK. What you are trying to do with forgiveness, IMO, is heal yourself and maybe the offender. But mostly yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2012 03:45PM by CA girl.

I think forgivenesss is good for the person doing the forgiving. To me it means you try to understand the reasons why the person did what he did. That may not excuse it, but it helps to explain it. Maybe the murderer had a horrid and abusive upbringing or is mentally ill. Trying to forgive and understand does not mean I have to trust the person, spend time with him or welcome him into my life. It just means that I try to put what he did behind me and understand that perhaps there are things in his background that made him what he is.

If you are able to "forgive" it helps YOU avoid some negative emotions and the resulting physical effects of those negative emotions. So from a purely selfish standpoint, it is actually a good thing to do, to strive for.

+1 My point exactly!

In mormonism forgiveness takes on a 'blame the victim' feel. I ask your forgiveness and if you are too hardhearted to GIVE it to me, YOU are the bad guy.

I like CA girl's take myself.

Came by just prior to Christmas with a sob story. I've known the guy for years. He's always done good by me and I thought I could trust him. Had plenty of work for him to do. Seemed like a good deal and I felt really great about helping the guy and his family out.

Unfortunately, desperate people do desperate things. I know this and, as a result, make it a rule never to pay people in advance. Oh well.

Beloved was fairly upset when I told her the news. I asked her to just let it go. She wanted to haul him into small claims court and such. I finally said "Look, I'm not interested in having my stomach constantly tied in a knot or going through all the associated bulls**t over chump-change I'll never get back. LET-IT-GO!"

Is that forgiveness? Not in a million years. I'll forgive the guy when he hands over the cash he owes and apologizes to me and Beloved for the grief he caused. In the meantime, all I can do is let it go as I've got bigger fish to fry.

Huge difference between letting it go and forgiveness.

Timothy

I think forgiveness should give the ppl concerned a sense of hey; I'm not perfect either.

I don't believe Forgiveness is the goal, I think Healing is.

I also believe that in a well-established relationship, Forgiveness (and a sincere regret, apology, and restitution) are the path to Healing.

So, I think rightly applied, Forgiveness is a cleansing experience, good for all involved.

This topic always hits to close to home with me. Recently I have tried to think of this type of thing as "letting go" "trusting" instead of "forgiving."

My life as a child as a mormon was disasterous. Story is very long and I don't have time to tell it now, but. . .

When dealing with the way my family and home life was as a child I have "let go" of as much of it as possible so I can have some sort of relationship with them. I do not let it occupy so much of my thought process and feelings that I can't move forward with my life.

However I do not "trust" them. I know my TBM mother will pick her church over me or any other family member. That she cannot safely take care of my children. My brother's anger issues mean they can still be violent. None of them are responsible with money so no loaning money. The list goes on and on. It comes down to I will not let myself or my husband and family get hurt when I can protect them.

"Forgiveness" doesn't seem to come into the picture. None of them have apologized for any of the actions in the past. None of them have even shown any recognition that what happened happened. They haven't changed behaviors or made amends.

I know some of them have noticed my lack of trust and I suspect they have an idea of why it is there. I have even given openings in conversations so we can talk about it if they want to. They don't seem to want to.

In primary I was always told "forgiveness" is to help wipe the slate clean. The slate cannot be clean if they haven't shown that the actions will not be repeated. I will not put my family in that type of situation. I will "let go" so I can move forward. I will not "trust" people who are untrustworthy. But I will not "forgive" and wipe a slate clean just so I can get hurt again.

I have a really hard time with the concept of "forgiving" the person who sexually abused me as a child. Fuck that. I understand to a certain point what made them do it, but will never forgive this person for what they did.

I like what Guy Noir said about healing being the goal rather than forgiveness--healing has nothing to do with them, but only to do with me and how I live my life.

Of course you want to be free of the emotional cost of carrying a grudge.

That said, I think that there is such a thing as forgiving too soon. The fact that one is angry and resentful about something is important information. By forgiving someone too soon, one may be thwarting the internal mental processes that work on the problem of how to protect oneself.


If you are having trouble forgiving, it could be that it is not time yet.

Even the people here that preach forgiveness don't really forgive EVERYTHING. They still say it is OK to hold some animosity when they say stuff like "forgiveness doesn't mean everything is OK". Well, if it isn't OK, then it isn't really forgiven. There is still some animosity being held onto.

One needs to let go of anger, but that does not require forgiveness. There are somethings that are not forgivable. I, myself, would never tell a rape person to forgive the person that raped her. I may suggest ways to work trough the anger, but to tell a victim of such horror to forgive? Never.

(though if they asked me about it, I'd probably make the case for it). Rather, it's something I'm trying to learn to do (and yes, completely) for myself, and also for the persons I may hold grievances against. In fact, unless someone has let go of all animosity oneself, then telling others to forgive is, as you suggest, hollow and perhaps hypocritical.

I'm reminded of an anecdote about Mahatma Gandhi. As a so-called 'holy man' (but really, someone with great interpersonal and interpersonal intelligence), he was often approached by people seeking his help or advice. Once a mother asked him, "Gandhi-ji, please tell my son not to eat sugar." Of course that's often good health advice, but Gandhi told her to come back in three days. When she returned with her son, Gandhi told the boy, "Don't eat sugar!"

The mother asked why she had to wait and come back for that, and Gandhi said, "Three days ago, I still ate sugar."

Like the quote in the Princess Bride, "you keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means".

What's wrong (to my mind) is the common practice in the mormon church of forcing the abused to forgive the abuser...and pretending the abuse never happened. I've read many stories where the bishop or the abuser basically forces the abused to admit forgiveness.

Lay bishops (usually) don't understand the dynamics of abuse. They're not trained. And it puts people in danger.

>Questions to ponder:

> Is there a difference between 'forgiving' and 'trusting' as some church leaders suggest?

Just because you let something go - you let it stop governing your daily life and decisions doesn't mean you have to trust someone again not to hurt you.

> should ALL Things be forgiven, or, are their (individual) limits?

I think if there is something that prevents you from living your life, from enjoying your life today, I think it's worth exploring how you can respond to that. Cognitive behavioral therapy could help. Is that forgiveness - to let something not govern your life or responses? I'm not talking about not being safe - continuing to protect yourself or your dependents.

But at some point, life is very, very short. I believe you have to enjoy life today, because none of us know what tomorrow will bring. That doesn't mean everyone should ignore their obligations and responsibilities and live on a mountain somewhere.

But there is a space there where we do have some amount of control over our own lives and choices. Each person must figure out if they're ready to explore their stuff and progress it (and the time table for that).

"What's wrong (to my mind) is the common practice in the mormon church of forcing the abused to forgive the abuser...and pretending the abuse never happened. I've read many stories where the bishop or the abuser basically forces the abused to admit forgiveness".

Exactly.

I agree with guy and Mj as well.

One can get caught up in the unrealistic ideal of total forgiveness. Especially in abuse situations.

Kind of like being caught in a spiders web. The harder one struggles against the strands, the more stuck he/she becomes.

Shifting from trying... (unsuccessfully) to fully forgive the abuser,
to working toward healing, has been a a lifesaver for me, literally.
The change in perspective can open up a whole new world of peace.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2012 01:27PM by ambivalent exmo.

guynoirprivateeye Wrote:
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> - Doesn't failure/refusal to forgive indicate
> presence of some kind of poison? a poison that
> prolly goes beyond the hurt of the events that
> caused the problem?

There's an old saying that forgiveness of others is a gift we give ourselves. That means when we let go of all the negative feelings, it's less baggage to carry around, less to get upset about, less time we spend living in the past. Otherwise, yes, we keep the hurt alive and sometime even make it grow. We sometimes imagine that the pain we nurture somehow flies out and hurts the offender. No, it just rots us.

Maybe the forgiveness I'm talking about isn't the "Okay, everything is back to being wonderful with you" type of forgiveness, rather more of a calm "Sorry, man, but for the foreseeable future, things aren't the same between us" type of letting go of anger, betrayal, pain or whatever, contingent on the offending party's response to hurting us.

It's a real good question. I guess there is the practical side to gaining sanity by "letting it go" instead of forever thinking about it. But I don't think that there is any kind of ethical or moral problem with holding an eternal grudge against someone who has really done you damage in some significant way, and one is never obligated to trust the person ever again. The church says that I'm required to forgive, but I don't believe the church. The Bible indicates that I'm supposed to forgive, but I also don't believe that the Bible offers any actual moral compass.

I was deeply hurt decades ago by a cheating spouse and the person he cheated with. I won't even try to describe the pain they caused me.

Over the years, I have tried and tried (by various means, including prayer) to "forgive" them. Nothing ever happened.

I finally decided that forgiveness is God's job and I don't have to carry that load around any more. What God decides to do - or not do - to those people is no longer my concern. They have never shown any remorse and I have long since stopped caring about it.

It's OVER. Finit.

True forgiveness is being able to say, and mean it, "It's okay. I love you anyway (or not, as the situation may be). You screwed up, and so do all of us, but let's just go on from here."

There are many times with people and situations that I can do and have done that. Sometimes it's much more difficult than others, and can take a while, but it has been eventually attainable. There are some things that I have tried but just can't forgive. I've gotten considerable emotional distance from what happened, but I cannot say it's okay. It was not okay, it was never okay, and while I have healed and gone on, and the emotion, the pain, does not take up residence in my "heart" anymore, I cannot forgive; I've tried for years, but just can't get there - the best I can do is cut as much of the emotional connection as possible. It would be so easy if I didn't care, but I'm not that callous. I just go on and learn from the experience the best I can. To seek revenge and to allow the hurt to continue would hurt me more than them, and I have healed myself.

This is what healing and letting go are. It is not the judeo/christian concept of forgiveness, or any definition of forgiveness, for that matter. That is a goal, something to try for, such as when Jesus is said to have said "Be perfect, as your parent in heaven is perfect." Perfection is impossible, as is forgiving everyone, but we do the best we can.

As a side note, I no longer count myself as a christian, but I can talk and live from a christian perspective, at least, the kind of christianity I learned from my parents, which does not jive with much of the bible or what most churches preach.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2012 12:17PM by serena.