Reality is setting in. Though not directly caused by my apostasy, my wife and I have decided the time has come to end our marriage. Fortunately, we are focused on doing what is best for our 4 year old son. One item that has come up through the mediation process is my desire to include in the divorce decree something that says he cannot go to a religious function without both of us agreeing. The mediator said it was typical to state that no ordinance could be performed without consent, but my request may be too far.

What do you guys think? My fear is that my son will be a project. The opposition that my wife has to this is that he might have a friend that invites him to scouts one day. My response is there is always an ulterior motive. I don't want to send my son into the lions' den without a rational person to shield him from the insanity. I know I am probably asking for too much, but what do you guys recommend?

I don't know that you have a say in what the wife does with your child on her weekends provided his safety is not in jeopardy. You may as well bring it up. You're also limiting yourself to what you can do with him. If you decide to take him to some religious service or Autumn Fest (Halloween party) at the local church, what if she says no? I would be careful putting up too many restrictions.

I would be content with the "no ordinance" rule. Amazing what a big deal that can become down the road.

I think it's a good rule. Even the child has to wait til 18 to make a binding religious decision.

Agree with mia.

I have two small children and I did not have my youngest blessed because I did not believe in that religion anymore. After my ex and I divorced, I heard through the grapevine that my ex was going to bless my youngest. I called the bishop of his ward and made it known that I do not approve of any blessing without my permission.

So far, my wishes have been respected. Best of luck to you.

I agree with requiring both parents to agree regarding ordinances (otherwise there will be temple work for the dead and constant interviews about sexuality).

I would also insist that your child not be interviewed about personal conduct without a parent being present.

Also, I advise you to insist that your child NOT join an LDS scout troup, but that your wife has your support for the boy to join a regular scout troop. If you are not aware, over 90% of scout deaths are LDS scout troups, regardless of what state the troop is in. That is because scout leadership in LDS wards is given to the less "faithful" so that they are not burdened with teaching spiritual classes. Because the men cannot refuse a calling, you end up with indifferent leaders who do not really want to work with boys, they just don't want to teach LDS lessons. Not the best person to entrust your child's safety in the wilderness.

This allows you room to explore different churches when you have your child, or nature, or whatever, with you knowing that your child will not be joining a coven, or a "work of god" or a commune without your knowledge and your wife has the same comfort.

Don't worry, Mormonism is not that attractive when a young man can compare it with other churches, regular scouts, or no church. And BTW, Mormon scouts are laughed at regular scout activities because they are hand held through their badge requirements.

Anagrammy

I just saw the closed post on Holland where you asked about my letter to him. I actually wrote when I was about to go inactive after having been inactive for years once before. I didn't ask to meet, but he wrote back within a week saying he'd like to meet and to call his office. So my situation at the time was different than someone who has already found out the church is false asking to meet with him. He's a good man, though. I think he's tormented by the possibility the church might not be as good as he wants to believe.

When parents divorce, the rights of the custodial parent (and even the non-custodial parent) to attend religious functions with the child when they are with them can't be curtailed to such a degree without it raising the probability that a court may discontinue any joint custody arrangement down the line. A provision like that could be evidence that one parent must have final say rather than relying on common agreement. Especially if your ex wants to go to church regularly. What is she supposed to do, get a baby sitter?

Those types of impossible restrictions just won't be enforced by a court but would likely result in a court invalidating a joint custody agreement if you end up having conflict when she wants to take him to religious functions and you say no. I would avoid asking for provisions where one parent can veto the other--where one can say no and the other has to live with it.

Even the ordinance thing will likely result in going back to court if the ex wants the child baptized, or the child decides he wants to be baptized at 12 or 13 and you're veteoing it because you can. Courts view those impasses as being bad for the child and will likely cut back your right to have a say if a conflict takes the two of you back to court. (I practice family law.)

Thanks, Cristina, that explains it. They simply do not engage apostates. I suspect it is because they can't very well use temple questions asking if people associate with us if they themselves are shown speaking to an apostate.

Painted themselves into a little shun box, now didn't they?

:)

Ana

I like Anagrammy's list.

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, I advise you to insist that your child NOT
> join an LDS scout troup, but that your wife has
> your support for the boy to join a regular scout
> troop. If you are not aware, over 90% of scout
> deaths are LDS scout troups, regardless of what
> state the troop is in. That is because scout

I'm curious about this as a former boy scout (and nevermo). Is this rhetoric or has some kind of study been done?

Hi Schmendrick,

These stats are facts. You can check them out through the internet, just google LDS Scout deaths.

A couple of years ago I did extensive research, getting an online spreadsheet of all scout deaths and how they died, whether they were LDS scouts or not.

Additionally, a Protestant church refused to allow a Mormon couple to be scout leaders because they did the research and found that Mormon scouts is just a proselyting tool to entice youth to stay active and progress in the priesthood by using their natural interest in the outdoors.

I have some horrific personal insights because one of my closest friends is active in the scouts and he told me of incidents over a span of twenty-five years. These close calls were never reported and they scared the bejesus out of me. These incidents SHOULD HAVE BEEN REPORTED to the proper Boy Scout authorities, but just like with child abuse, the information is kept private to avoid embarrassing the church.

Probably the worst example is a bishop allowing an extremely obese (300# range) woman to come on an extended winter hike. He didn't want to hurt her feelings by excusing her. She wanted to do everything the boys did, including jumping into a stream, where she broke her ankle. While she screamed in agony, they did not have enough manpower to get her out of the stream and up the embankment. The boys wandered off completely alone while all the adults dealt with the accident. It ended up taking six men to get her up to where a helicopter could rescue her.

The boys were alone for roughly three hours--thank god they were able to find them all, cold and frightened but ok.

Another time a scout leader gave the boys (aged 10 & 11) permission to swim to an island in the middle of a freezing lake in the winter as the sun was setting. My friend stepped in and said absolutely not and countermanded the decision of the leader. He pointed out that the island was farther away than it looked and no adult was going with them-- a terrible decision.
As a result of my friend's personal experience with scout supervision by indifferent leaders, he NEVER allows his boy to go into the wilderness without him.

And by the way, if you see the boy scout chart, you will note that virtually EVERY LDS death was caused by inadequate supervision.

If you find other facts of interest, or have a different take on it, please post here :) We're just interested in boys having a great experience in the outdoors, not being indoctrinated and not being hurt.


Anagrammy

I did some googling (not very deep; only the first two pages of results) and I didn't find much by way of research, though I did find a few interesting forum discussions.

So I can't confirm or deny your 90% as scholarly vs. rhetorical, but along the way the discussion was enlightening, particularly in the somewhat amusing way one poster rather suddenly concluded that his church was under attack and went immediately into FUD mode.

I'll stop the derail, but thank you for bringing the topic to my attention.

Lazarus, my heart goes out to you.

When I was in mediation I cried uncontrollably. I was a basket case of fear and trepidation. I lost 60 lbs. It's a nightmare.

You seem to have covered the important "replacing Dad" aspect. Your boy is so lucky to have at least one non-brainwashed parent. It will be enough to save him if you are smart, and of course, you are.

It's a tough situation --thankfully this part's over and you can move forward and parent together in a friendly way.

Anagrammy

I think the state where you are getting divorced can make a huge difference in this matter.

I got divorced in Ohio.

If one parent had a problem with it, the court was good about siding with them.

I suspect it's a whole different game in Utah.

I think you would be wise to back off.

If your son is to regularly attend the LDS church (on weekends he is with his mother?), then plan on him being excited to be baptized, just like all his other little LDS friends, when he nears the age of eight. Plan on him being excited to join the LDS Cub Scouts with all his pals from church. When he nears the age of twelve, plan on him being excited to become a deacon and pass the sacrament...just like his buddies in church. And excited to join the Boy Scouts with his friends. And so on...and so on...and so on.

Do you want to be the one who puts his foot down and says "NO" to him participating in activities with his peers he is growing up with. Do you really want to make him the "odd one out" of his group of friends? Do you want to give your wife the ammunition to help alienate your son against you? When he goes to her hurt and confused because YOU did not allow him to participate in activities with his friends that he had been taught about to look forward to in church, do you want to give her the power to say "Its not my fault. Blame you father"?

When a child is in a split-parent situation with the one parent being heavily into a religion, drawing a line in the sand over it is petty. Will your son fully understand what is happening when he gets baptized at eight years old? No. He'll just think it is cool and all of his friends are doing it. Or being ordained a deacon? No. He'll just think it is cool to pass the sacrament with his friends. Always be careful and think twice before you pick your battles and/or draw that line in the sand. And although LDS scouting is scary, I have yet to see a Bishop turn down a non-member or inactive member from volunteering. So if that is important to you, get in there and volunteer to help when the time comes.

Concentrate on being a good father. Make the right decisions and provide a good example for your son. Show him that you don't need to be a member of some church to be a good man. When you have him for visits, plan your best activities on Sundays to show him there is nothing to fear...that no bolt of lightning will come down from the sky. If you gain his love and trust, and are open and honest with him, someday he will come to you with his questions. And it will be THEN that you will be able to provide answers, counsel, guidance, and love. When he is old enough and mature enough to comprehend the things you share with him.

Think about it. Do you want to draw that line in the sand now when it might confuse your son, or later when he will better be able to understand what you trying to get across to him.

Best of luck to you.

I understand that you are trying to protect your son from the cult, but the courts are not going to see it that way. Best bet is to go for an even split, and try to arrange for it, so your son spends every other Sunday with you. Being able to watch cartoons on Sunday morning at your house, while being forced to go to church with Mom, will have a major impact on him down the road.

In fact, kids are pretty smart. Being exposed to two different worlds, one inside the church, and one outside, it will not take him long before he figures out that the church is full of BS when they talk about their way being better.

Hi Lazarus,
I am sorry to hear about your divorce. I am also going through a separation, and I am leaving the Church.
I have some young children as well and we have both agreed that the children would decide which church to attend, if any at all, when they turn 16. I feel that shattering their testimony now would only hurt them and separated them from their friends. When they are mature enough to understand that the Church is not true, then I will tell them. Good luck!!

My children were young when I divorced my TBM husband. I made him agree that on the Sundays that they were at his house he could take them to church, but no baptism until they were adults and could decide for themselves and at age twelve they no longer had to go to church with him. They got to choose. I set the age at twelve for two reasons. The first is that they would then be old enough to not need a babysitter while he was at church. The second is that at that age Mormon boys get the priesthood. Since ours would not, they would be second class citizen, so to speak. This arrangement worked for us. All three are now grown. They are all three very principled, successful adults without the need for any organized religion to dictate ethics. By contrast, my ex-husband's twelve siblings raised their children in the church and most of them are very screwed up. Even though he is still a TBM, he has had to admit that they turned out well. By the way, I had three children ages three and under when I left him, just four years after our SLC temple marriage. Managed to quote enough Brigham Young to get Temple Clearance following the divorce, but read too much church history in the process and found I based my life on a lie. Had to re-define my life.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I didn't give very much information to go off of.

I started down the exmormon road that leads to atheism. And I like that road. My wife, as soon as I stopped going to church, headed down the jack mormon road. Part of my fear is that I don't know where she stands with the church, nor does she. I am trying to prepare for her going back to the church, but hope she doesn't.

We had the last meeting with the mediator today. I softened my stance on the no going to church thing and left it at no unsupervised church activity until the age of 12 (one of the two of us has to be present), no ordinances without approval of both parents. I also added that he can't go on overnight campouts or other activities where he is paired up with another adult, a la surrogate dads in father sons campouts.

She seemed fine with it. I can't want for this roller coaster ride to end. I feel like I am going to hurl.