With all the scary stories about home invasions recently, I will most likely get a gun sometime after I buy my first house. I'm wondering what the church's view is on shooting and killing a home invader. I think I remember a talk from Boyd K Packer that said it's ok to defend your family even to bloodshed. What about personal property though?

And while we're on the subject of home invaders, I've heard that if you kill one in your house, you're fine according to the law of the land, but if you shoot them and they run away, they can sue you and win. How on earth is that even possible? It would be like "Oh I was trying to rob this guy and he shot me and he should pay up."

1) Why do you care what Boyd K Packer or any mormon leader said about home defense? Do what you think is right.

2) Check your local laws. It varies from state to state... Likely if you shot someone and they ran away you could face a civil trial, but not a criminal one (but this depends on laws and circumstance).


Why wait to buy a gun until you own a home? Why not get one now? 'Home Invasions' occur in apartments and condos as well...

You have a common misconception. If someone is in your home, you shoot them, then they run away, that isn't a problem. If, while they are running away, you pursue them and continue shooting, you may have a problem, under most circumstances. Most, because if your kids are outside, or he is yelling he is going to grab his shotgun from his car, then you might reasonably have a reason to shoot a fleeing person, but it is a stretch.

It's all about immanent danger. The problem with the misconception you stated, is that some people will try and finish off a person, because they think they will face less trouble that way. In reality, it will get them a murder charge.

Best thing you can do in the unlikely situation that you shoot someone, is call the cops, check the area for additional threats, then render aid to the person you just put holes into, until help arrives. Ninety percent of all gunshot wounds are survivable, and administering first aid, or even attempting to can speak volumes to juries, judges, and district attorneys.

Again, who cares what an apostle says?

In my state, Florida, where we have some of the most open self defense in the country, you can still go to prison for murder one, if you shoot someone in your home, if you are involved in a criminal enterprise, or are allowing your home to be used for one. This can include a pot plant growing in your closet.

Study the local laws. Most gun shops offer courses that go over when you can and can not shoot, and in most states you must receive such training before you can get a permit, and I feel you should have it anyways if you are going to own a gun.

If you are not someone who is going to obsessively clean or practice with your gun, stick with a simple revolver, and maybe a pump action shotgun.

I live in Orem, Utah in an apartment complex that I'm pretty sure has a policy against holding weapons in an apartment. I also still believe in the Church, which explains why I'm wondering about what apostles said. I do know that even Orem isn't as safe as I would like to think though, which is why I'm keeping my stash of Silver metal out of my apartment in a trusted family's basement.

Oh, and I personally hope that my gun will essentially stay in a closet my whole life and I never have to "use" it on anyone. I'm a gentle person and can't picture myself using lethal force on anyone. I'm a lot more scared of the potential alternative though. I would most likely go the shooting range a bit to keep my skills up.

Unless you live in a government owned housing project, student housing, or are on a military base, the apartment complex can have all the rules about not having guns on property they want, but they are meaningless.

If you are unsure that you would be able to pull the trigger on that gun, then a fire arm is more a liability then protection, and I would advise against it. You need to know ahead of time that you will shoot, with the intent to kill.

I would go with a TASER if I were you. TASER international has a device with a 30 second ride, police TASERs stop shocking after five seconds, but the civilian models don't cut off until 30. The extra seconds are so you can drop the TASER, and run away as soon as you fire it. It will leave a cloud of confetti, each marked with a serial number that links it back to you as the purchaser. You then go get a police report, and mail it in to TASER International, and they will ship you a replacement, free of charge.

If I fired a taser against someone with a gun, would it stop that person from being able to shoot me? If tasers completely immobolize someone as I think they do, I should be able to disarm them. Can I face any charges for tasing someone?

Basically it boils down to immenent danger. If you or someone else is in immenent danger, you can use deadly force. If the culprit appears to be unarmed and is running the other way screaming "Don't shoot! I won't hurt you'" You had better not use the gun.You could face charges. Find out what the laws are. Personally, I would have to live in a very dangerous area to even consider having a gun around.

mleblanc138 Wrote:
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> With all the scary stories about home invasions...

Don't listen to the stories. Go look up actual crime statistics for your area. Then divide the number of incidents by your population. Your chances of a home invasion are...?

Also, if you can find stats broken down by parts of town, is any of it happening near you?

Don't confuse home invasions with burglaries. Home invasions happen when you're there. Burglaries, which are WAY more common and seldom involve weapons, happen when you're not there, because they don't want to get caught.

If there are children in the house, you'd want to keep your weapon locked up. But then, if armed thugs were ever to smash in your door and start waving their guns around, you wouldn't have the time to go unlock your gun because, you know, their goal is to surprise you.

Stray Mutt Wrote:
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> mleblanc138 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > With all the scary stories about home
> invasions...
>
> Don't listen to the stories. Go look up actual
> crime statistics for your area. Then divide the
> number of incidents by your population. Your
> chances of a home invasion are...?

When you've found the number of home-owners killed in home invasions in your state, compare that with the number of people killed by lightning or by car-deer accidents, or of people killed by accidents involving their own firearm.

If you want to worry about stuff there are a lot more likely scenarios than home invasions. It's just that home invasions make the news. They make the news because they are scary, not because they are common.

Good point, as I certainly don't worry when I jump into my car. My fear of home invasions comes from reading sites like coinflation so much. That particular site runs certain articles that update daily. Most of them are about things like Silver prices, the Fed printing money, and someone's home or shop being robbed for valuables.

Learn the laws.
Take some lessons to learn how and when to use and care for a weapon.
Store it in a dry area. And clean it often.

I hope I never have to use my gun against someone. I will if I have to. It would piss me off to have that mess in my house.

Not only does it make a mess, but they take your gun away for evidence, and you don't get it back for months or years, and it is usually a rusted mess by then.

If you want to know the church's official policies, why not go to a church approved site?

Before getting a gun, what about investing in a security system, security bars & doors or even a dog? If someone is already in your house, what good is a gun stuck in a closet? Plus, you have to be able to shoot a person. Also, do you have children?

My friends had a small chihuahua mix. The dog barked when anyone came in their yard. He wasn't an attack dog, but he certainly alerted the family. I have a security door and bars on the windows.

I'm 22, single, no children. I actually work for Vivint(formerly APX Alarm) and will probably get a Vivint system when I buy my first house. I'll ask church sources about this as well, but I did get some very useful information off this thread, especially from forbiddencokedrinker's post, and I like to get multiple viewpoints on things.

This is going to sound stupid, but rather you have kids or not, don't have your gun too close to your bed. You want to have to get up, and move a short distance across the room to it, so that you have time to clear your mind, so you don't end up shooting the tree that is tapping up against your window, or the AC unit when it kicks on.

Home invasions, break-ins, while the owner is home, are rare in the states, probably because the crooks are afraid of getting shot, but they do happen, and normally when the bad guys mistakenly think you are away.

The most important thing is you want to minimize risk. Use hollow points, and not full metal jacketed rounds, because full metal jacketed rounds tend to pass through things. In fact, even though hollow points are politically incorrect, they are safer, because the more PC jacketed ammo can pass through every wall of nine standard sized homes, and still have enough power to kill. A hollow point will expand and tumble as soon as it hits something, making a wider hole, but stopping a few feet after it emerges on the other side. Despite media claims, hollow points are not armor piercing, that got started due to a misunderstanding that compared the rounds to soft lead practice rounds.

Having no weapons at all is better security. Those rare instances when it is actually necessary, and no other options where possible, are national newspaper story material...

Yours,
Could not disagree with you more.
If you think the police will get there in time to save your butt when you're unwilling to do it yourself, the stats run heavily against you.

When seconds count the cops are only minutes away.

re security: domestic violence, children playing with the gun, suicide, just to mention three
The weapon (if full security is wanted) should be at hand fully loaded at all times.

Never keep a gun loaded. That is stupid. With speed loaders for revolvers, and magazine fed automatics, you can load your gun in split seconds, and keep your weapons and ammo separate.

If someone in your home has rage issues, don't have a gun. If you have children, keep your gun were they can't get to it. BTW, having a pool and children is statistically far more dangerous then having children and a gun. Until recently, I was a cop, and I have a toddler. I take extreme cautions so that my child can't get to my guns, they are not loaded if he somehow did, BTW in Florida keeping an unsecured fire arm loaded in a home inhabited by children is a crime, but I could have a fire arm out and in a fight in only seconds if I had to.

The place I keep them, is in a secure part of the house, that I can further barricade during a home intrusion. By this I mean I have a lockable interior door, that while it will not stop an attacker, would slow him down. I had a neighbor who was a retired FBI agent who was beaten to death with a baseball bat, by a guy who had just gotten out of a prison for a crime the FBI guy had put him in a decade before. The experience warped my thinking. Most people don't make those kinds of enemies, and as far as I know, I have never taken anyone to jail who holds that kind of grudge, but you never know.

You decide what you need to do for you. Gun magazines overstate the threat in order to sell you guns, but there is also special interest that understates the problem because guns because they have flawed utopian ideals. The truth, like everything else, is somewhere in the middle.

All of our bedrooms can be key-locked, so that's where the firearms are kept when the grandchildren visit. Besides, the firearms are not within sight but are readily accessible if you know where they are. The grandkids have no idea that we even have firearms.

I have a simple revolver and I keep it loaded. I've tried to use one of those speed-loaders and I'm afraid that if I were awakened from a deep sleep, and had to deal with an intruder in a hurry, I might not be able to do it.

If you are going to own a gun, you need to have already decided that you are willing and able to use it. Stay friendly with your local target-practice range.

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
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> You decide what you need to do for you. Gun
> magazines overstate the threat in order to sell
> you guns, but there is also special interest that
> understates the problem because guns because they
> have flawed utopian ideals. The truth, like
> everything else, is somewhere in the middle.


And many LEOs I've known slip into an attitude that everyone not in uniform is a potential perp, because that's what they deal with every day. They need to assume anyone they stop or approach is dangerous. Their job skews their perspective.

As for me, I have a gun -- because I like target shooting. I don't have any delusions that I would be able to shoot someone. I also know that if I were to be awakened suddenly, I'd be too groggy and disoriented -- and too blind -- to figure out what was going on, much less properly handle my gun. Besides, in my 60 years, I've never been in a situation where a weapon would have been a solution. Maybe I'm lucky. Maybe the luck will run out. We'll see.

Forbidden has given some excellent info.

Utah County has its own criminal justice views (which those of us working up North in the SL Valley often used to shake our heads over), but the general principles still apply.
You are justified in using deadly force in defense of life and to prevent imminent serious bodily injury, NOT in defense of property or possessions.

A Taser, IF the barbs strike correctly, can stop anybody and disable them briefly.
It is generally not required that an aggressor be armed to use one, but you'd better have clear and articulable reasons for using it that go beyond "He frowned at me".

If the other guy's armed, and you can get the hooks in him before he gets a bullet in you, it SHOULD give you time to get his gun or get out.

Above all, if you don't think you can bring yourself to shoot somebody, DON'T get a gun.

I keep guns, because I enjoy shooting them. I have also been a cop, and live in an area where exciting things are known to happen from time to time. While self defense shootings are rare, they do happen, and are defensive use of fire arms are actually more common then would think. For every time a gun owner fires a weapon in self defense, there are many times more incidents where the threat retreats upon being confronted by someone who merely brandishes a firearm without shooting it. I would have to look up the exact numbers, but they are much higher then shootings themselves.

Still, you are very unlikely to ever have to use a fire arm to defend yourself. Cops are the most likely in our society to have to do so, and the vast majority of them never have to fire a shot in anger.

It comes down to you. If having a gun, kept under safe conditions makes you fear safer about yourself, your home, and the world around you, and you both willing to use it, while cool headed enough to not misuse it, then by all means, get a gun. If you don't feel you need one, then don't.

After reading the posts here, I think I will lean towards the non lethal side(taser most likely) as well as a Vivint security system. Interesting that you mention having a pool with children is more dangerous than a gun with children as I'm friends with a good bit of a very well off neighborhood in Orem, many of which have a pool at their house.

This type of conversation just wouldn't happen among people in most other Western countries. It would certainly never occur among Australians. We generally don't own guns and home invasion by armed criminals is extremely rare. The risk of accidental deaths by having firearms in the home is much higher than the risk of being shot by an armed intruder.

It is sad that Americans feel the threat of armed home invasion is that high that they need to arm themselves. I don't know a solution. Its just sad.

Also, you want the church's stance. Joseph Smith shot and killed two men who were attempting to enter his temporary lodging. Granted, they were members of a lynch mob, and it was the Carthage Jail, but if any of them says anything that conflicts with that...

I'm home alone a lot. I have an alarm system, a dog, and live in a gated community.

If a young male broke into my home, I wouldn't have a chance.
I don't think I will ever use my gun, but I would if I had to.

Currently, I never have young children in my home. If I do, I have a gun safe.

In the meantime, my gun is fully loaded, and within my reach most of the time.

When I was in my 20's and single, I had a landlord who liked to come into my apartment unannounced. That's when I learned what a great leveler a gun can be. He never came over again once he met my loaded 357.

My single daughter is gun savvy, and has a concealed weapons permit. I sleep better knowing that.

Simon,
I will respectfully defer to you in your field of expertise, and your descriptions of your country and culture. I know nothing about the first & very little about the second, beyond what I consider a deplorable lack of personal freedoms regarding firearms ownership. :)

As far as crime, gun ownership, and the American culture go, please grant me the same courtesy.
As a retired cop and still making a good part of my retirement income with the firearms industry, I like to believe I'm more plugged into the subject than you may be. :)

Crime is a reality in the US, and even here in the most blessed-by-God-state in the nation, Utah.
Violent crime has been reducing in numbers in recent years, a good part of which has been at the same time more states have jumped on the bandwagon to enable law-abiding citizens to obtain concealed carry permits for their own protection. In other words, one could argue that More Guns=Less Crime. :)

It does still occur, however, and when it does it very simply does not happen when the police are on the scene.
We typically got there in time to pick up the pieces and try to sort things out, almost always AFTER the injury and quite frequently after the initiator was long gone.

I personally responded to several incidents over the years where the presence of a gun in the right hands shut down a situation immediately and well before our arrival, and Dr. John Lott's study in the fairly recent past produced figures indicating that EACH YEAR guns are used defensively from one to three million times in the US.

Not police guns, not military guns, not armed security guns, just regular people who own guns. That doesn't mean actual shootings, in most cases the mere presence of a gun in the potential victim's hands was enough to stop the escalation cold.

To me, that tends to counter the often-quoted hogwash about a gun being more dangerous to the owner & family than an intruder would be.

Lott, incidentally, began as an anti-gunner, but had the academic integrity to conduct a non-biased study and to change his views based on the results he found.
If you're interested, you can take a look at his website where he keeps up on the issues.

Your country and society are greatly different from ours.
I have nothing but respect for your professional endeavors and your efforts to address the corporation's religious nonsense, but the fact remains that among the various categories of violent crimes statistically tracked in the US, home invasions are one area that IS on the rise.

It's not just a matter of feeling, it's a matter of fact. :)

And THAT is why I own and carry a gun.
My daughter owns and carries a gun.
The world is not a safe place for women.
Men who are up to no good understand when they are on the other end of a loaded gun.

My gun is pink. It still does the job. I'm trained to use it. I hope nobody is dumb enough to challenge me.

In Arizona we have guns. I grew up hunting just about everything and still like to hunt- I blame it on my hunter / gatherer ancestors- I just don't like to shoot things much anymore.

I have a safe full of guns but it takes me five minutes to open the thing.

Just like Joseph smith, I have carried concealed but don't like the feeling. In fact I have great little pistola he would have died for....He would have shot a whole lot more people.

In the wide open spaces where I live guns seem natural and recreational. Guns in big cities seem to exist for other reasons. I'd hate to pull a weapon and have shots go down the street. I'd rather not carry and take a little risk in order to not to put others at risk.

I like Oz's Utopia but just don't see it happening here in my life time, not with violence from Mexico spilling over into the US with guns we sold to cartels who supply the drugs Americans need. Don't know the solution either.

Here's my take: If some piece of @#$%& wants to come into my home and mess with my family or possessions, they will be met with Mr Glock and his friends, the Black Talon triplets. I don't care if you're a misguided youth just trying to find some jewelry to pay for your next high or are intending on inflicting violence upon me, you're going out feet first on a stretcher or in a bag.

I once met a prowler in my back yard, under my daughter's window, with said Glock. He pissed his pants and began crying. I proned him out and waited for the police to arrive and take him away. There's nothing like the sound of jacking one in the chamber to get one's attention.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2012 01:28AM by Dave the Atheist.

The Holy Ghost: 'Oooops, I forgot to warn a faithful and righteous believer on impending dangers AGAIN!'

I'm australian. They took our gun rights away from us.
This is like Texes 100 years ago if we had guns.
Our natives here, aboriginals would shoot everyone and themselfs....We are a cheeky race of bastards and bitches here
stare and pick fights, invade and just recently I gave a few dollars to a native who knocked on my door for money, who was drunk and ready to smash my car windscreen, but as I just had a little win on lotto that week, I felt it was a test and gave some money. Had I gun I think I would be in prison long ago.
australians except farmers could not be trusted with them.
We are a blood thirsty knock ya down nation.
I found americans nicer people than the aussies and get on board when discuss business and not knock ya down. Australians try to tear each other up when someone is doing well or better than him or earning more money etc...

Had I gun, I would be in jail now for killing a bishop and myself so no I would be dead not in jail.

Now I'm doing without smoking and could kill for a ciggerate he he...

The more good I try to be the more closer I come to wishing I had a gun... I hate being this way, always fucking hungury, eat and fat like a stoned pig and huge guy like a munster all because I avoid smoking.

sometimes we are better off breakng all the rules except as the buddhest says if we cant do any good or better ourselfs at least dont harm anyone. But if I caught an invader in my house, hit I would and asked questions later...
\the bastards want attack me while I'm bad. they wait to I'm good and the sun shines out of my ass then they get me.
Old big Larry is better off mean old larry fuck off and leave me alone sign on the door hardly anyone takes notice even the missionaries rocked up all last week..

I'll just poop, @#$%& and eat until I find the strength of giving up smoking to face my attackers again, mormon enemies just waiting to gossip again about me if I start to shine trying to enjoy church for the sake off my wife who is a member
but yes if I had a gun, it would come to church with me. thanks to aust gov we dont have guns here. America may learn or not from this our way, deprived of rights. When in america the mexicans and african americans loved a drunked aussie, and threw me guns and I was exposed to marfia. The white american is to nice and under attack. Australia white and black, kill their grandmother here for money, even rape them. i wish captical punishment would come here for such crimes.
A gun would mean to shoot oneself after killing some one who ya fucking hate like enemy mormon gossipers that fuck up ya marrige. I'm lucky my wife gives me the benifit of the doubt.
People should be shot for breaking up marriges and that includes mormons and sometimes leaders as well.
I'm good no fucking worries mate just a bit biopla depressed tonight..

Larry....