"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." D & C 135 vs 3.

Really? He clearly had more sex than most men.

Well, he sure put white, wealthy, hetero men at the top of the pyramid of Mormon power...

For me, it was "The natural man is an enemy of God" [or something like it....]

That one never made sense to me either. Why would God create a planet full of children and make them all his enemy? Then, after he declares us enemies, we're supposed to worship him? That's some screwed up thinking. A good editor could have fixed that.

Me too. That one just would not compute. Leave it to the mormons to turn the word "natural" into a negative. I just couldn't see it.

I love the scripture "The natural man is an enemy of god."

I often use it when I talk about original sin. It is original sin that alienates mankind from god from day one. And who created original sin?

Right. The Catholic Church. Why did they want to alienate man from god? So they could offer their solution to the problem: salvation.

What if babies are born perfect, like our first instincts tell us. What if they really are the embodiment of innocence and perfection and we were not born broken?

Then we might be ok and not need priests and sacraments and fixing. Maybe the cult of self-aversion would not exist.

Anagrammy

Original sin is a complex doctrine. It does not mean that the cute baby that you are holding in your arms is sinning. Original sin means that it is humankind's propensity to sin and that cute baby that you are holding in your arms will drive you to distraction sooner or later. It is concupiscience, a strong desire to commit an action that is contrary to God's law. Of course, the little tyke doesn't know what he or she is doing but still he or she is acting in a desire that is contrary to your own and ultimately God's. Original sin is not a deliberate action on the part of the person. It is just recognizing that we do not meet up to God's standards. Baptism in most Christian churches is a sacrament that erases this original sin.

Wow! You wrote concupiscence. That is awesome. I love seeing exact and accurate philsophical language.


On a touching note: A newly born baby is not the wretched soul that our American Protestant ears make it out to be when we hear words like Original Sin.

A Catholic mind properly does not operate on syllogisms. Rather it employs the 'Both/And Principle'. (Google it if you must).



So.. the little newborn is not a wretched creature. She is innocent but her nature is off course. Nature is the philosophical word to describe the impulse of a living thing. It is the nature of a baby to grow into a child and then into an adult and then into a casket. The earlier a person is born again; that is, has her nature properly oriented (facing East toward the Resurrection) the straighter she will grow in the path of life. This does not mean that if she is never properly Baptised that she cannot grow straight but there is a a boat-load of re-assurance if she is (Here, I utilised the Both/And Principle).

Another aspect of the American Protestant mind is this. It fails to recognise the beauty and dignity of every person, good and bad. There is an old proverb: "It's only mercy if someone doesn't deserve it." The second part of Baptism is Chrismation (aka Confirmation). Properly speaking this should happen before the age of reason sets in. During chrismation the child is declared (recognised publically) that she is a sacred creation and irreplaceable (as all people are).


The big challenge for former Mormons is ridding of their cultural anti-Catholicism. Without anti-Catholicism and building itself up as an mock Church, Mormonism wouldn't survive a week.


pax vobis omnibus (may peace be with all of you)

Nominations for alternatives are now OPEN.

Perhaps Joe has the numbers (always important in Morland), but:

Quality?


How could we measure the Value of contributions?

Hello? If that troubles you, this one will put you over the edge.

Joseph Smith:"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" (Documentary History of the Church 6:408).

Joseph Smith thought he was better than Jesus (not to mention Paul, John and Peter)

This quote alone disqualifies Smith as a prophet in the eyes of Christians.

Smith was an egomaniac of epic proportions.

canadianfriend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello? If that troubles you, this one will put you
> over the edge.
>
> Joseph Smith:"I have more to boast of than ever
> any man had. I am the only man that has ever been
> able to keep a whole church together since the
> days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have
> stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus
> ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a
> work as I" (Documentary History of the Church
> 6:408).
>
> Joseph Smith thought he was better than Jesus
> (not to mention Paul, John and Peter)
>
> This quote alone disqualifies Smith as a prophet
> in the eyes of Christians.
>
> Smith was an egomaniac of epic proportions.

That little chestnut in particular had a whole lot to do with my leaving tscc. I thought "What arrogance!" Now I know.

This was the smoking gun for me. Smith was no saint.

Add to that the lovely hymn "Hail to the man who communed with Jehovah....." Really? We don't worship JS even a teensie bit?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2012 09:27PM by goatsgotohell.

(repeat) who did 'more for mankind' than Christ other than Joe?

nominations, Anyone?

I'd nominate the guy in england who stopped british slave trade

thomas edison for all the things he invented that make our lives better today esp. electric lights

tony robbins seems to be helping a lot of people improve their lives, even tho his lectures are way expensive.

martin luther king- for obvious reasons

whoever it was or they were who got western governments to sit and talk their problems over instead of starting wars so there has been peace in the western europe/ north America for a long time. That's saved the lives of millions right there.

and can't forget the guy who invented Santa and the Easter bunny for bringing joy to millions of kids and making or materialistic economy work.

what did joe smith do?

created a system of polygamy the exploits young girls
created a church that is racist, homophobic and gender biased.
created an organization that either attracts or creates mental illness like narcissism
stole from people (danites) and killed people (MMM) with impunity
lied and scammed people

yup, ole joe certainly did things jesus didn't do!

I vote Johannes Gutenberg

karin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thomas edison for all the things he invented that
> make our lives better today esp. electric lights
Tesla.

I like this one:

Journal of Discourses Vol 7 Page 289 "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2012 04:53PM by suckafoo.

Isn't there something about idol worship in the Ten Commandments? I guess it doesn't apply to the MORG as regards JOE....

Another:

"I combat the errors of the ages;...I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth--diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man.'...[God] will make me be God to you in his stead,...and if you don't like it, you must lump it....I have more to boast of than ever any man had....I boast that no man ever did such a work as I."

Joseph Smith History of the Church, 1844

My, his humility astounds me!

Why are these jewels not known among the Saints?

"The Journal of Discourses" and "Joseph Smith History of the Church" contain many "meaty" items that can shake one's faith. Members are not encouraged to read these at all, and I'm sure the GA's would prefer to lock up all copies if that were possible.
I haven't heard them even mentioned in church for years!

I can't remember, didn't JS write this section of D&C? If so, isn't that convenient for him!

I think they spike the Funeral potatoes with Cog-dis....

I KNEW all this nonsense- but the day I actually said to myself= wow- if I actually agree with and believe this stuff then I deny The Atonement and I accept that some old man in SLC has the power to decide who gets into the "Celestial Kingdom" instead of being Judged by Jesus Christ??


Being able to spout the facts and do the mental yoga needed to make it all make sense- Kept me in the 10% club for way too long.

I think many Mormons if they take a step back and think of things rationally will see the flaws in the church.

I don't argue with my parents about the church for the sake of civility. They have their belief system, and I'll have mine. We were talking a little about church history tonight, and my father admitted the church had a racist past. This was surprising because usually he would make an excuse for a moral flaw in the church and blame one individual, or give some doctrinal reason he heard from his youth. My father with all his flaws is certainly not a racist. Yet he admits to following a church where every prophet (who all get divine revelation from God) until 1978 sanctioned racism. It shows people will believe what they want to believe. The church gives them comfort, and gives their life meaning so they will continue to believe. There are so many flaws in the church it is incredible, yet some people; and yes some otherwise intelligent people still believe.

"And my father dwelt in a tent"...and yet we hardly ever got to go camping! TBM parents, a bunch of hypocrites... practice what you preach!

the deal in the BOM where it says I know that God never gives a commandment to the children of men with out first preparing a way for them to accomplish the thing that He has commanded.

we had that CONTINUALLY JAMMED DOWN OUR THROATS IN SEMINARY!

they LDS BS instructors NEVER bothered to tell use about how Joe SMith also wrote a cop out counter version of it thats in the D&C.
paraphrasing "when the ppl try really hard but are unduly thwarted by evil, then the lord accepts it and its time to just move on"

Same thing with tithing, pay it or get incinerated when Jesus comes again. They Never told us that Brigham young suspended tithing. they showed us that damn LDS BS "windows of heaven" movie about Lorenzo Snow telling the LDS in St George to get back to paying tithing, but they never told us why the LDS in Dixie stopped paying tithing, because Brigham young suspended it ! PHONY LYING BASTARDS!


Its funny when brigham young gets the treatment that he is so used to dishing out, too bad for the LDS who got a double whammy , they were too stupid to see it was god's way of telling them to stop being MORmONS!


@ 8:30 mark specifically about suspending tithing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwkFavjPsdE

Very Interesting!

I've been a RR (including RR History) fan for most of my life.

I'd like to get 'the rest of the story' on this; Was BY ever paid (stock or cash, partial or full?).

Someone PLEASE get me email for David Bain...

The "Lord" to Emma Smith commanding her to accept Joseph's polygamy, and if she doesn't...