I was asked to give a speech to the Freethinkers of Upstate New York in two weeks.

I am going to focus on my own position and experience, with lots of anecdotes to make it personal. (Personal story here -- TL/DR: I was raised TBM, left post-mission, now atheist). We will also be screening the recent BBC documentary "The Mormon Candidate" about Mitt Romney.

Finally all the ridiculous speaking assignments at church come in handy.

I have two things for the board:

1. What would you bring up as part of a speech? I have a lot of ideas already in my notes. But I would love to hear a few ideas from others. I will have about 40 minutes for the speech and Q&A. I want to hit the big stuff and possibly curb some of the more obvious questions in advance. It seems most of the people in the group have little or no exposure to TSCC, so I'm assuming I have a blank slate.

2. If there are any ExMos in upstate NY who would like to attend, my speech is April 21, 1-3 p.m. at North Onondaga Public Library, 8686 Knowledge Ln., Cicero, NY (near Syracuse). I think you are welcome to attend, but you may want to alert the organizers.

Thanks in advance for any help. I am told it will be on YouTube. So once it's posted, I will return and report.

Great. There is so much to choose from. Since you have a limited amount of time, I would suggest focusing on two situations which clearly show the church is a mafia-like organization devoted to the perpetration and survival of itself.

To me, the most shocking are the Book of Abraham and the Mark Hofmann scandal and the way the church handled both of these. I would close with Hinckley's hypocritical interview on the Larry King show where he has a worldwide audience and instead of preaching the restoration like the missionaries are forced to do, he denied it. "I don't know that we teach that."

I think of the missionaries who are being taught as I type this that they can't go home at night if they have even two people listening to a street presentation...they have to "seize" the moment and stay until those people have had enough.

And Hinckley had the King TV audience. (shaking her head in disbelief) Peter denying Christ was an amateur compared to Slinky Hinckley.

Anagrammy

My $ 0.02

Go light on "historical" stuff --
* JS was a womanizer,
* BY taught blood atonement for interracial marriages,
* the 1st vision story changed 4times, etc.

Go heavy on "this religion sucks" with stuff like
• no financial accountability
• compulsory 10% donation
• Orwellian doctrine changes -- "we never believed African Anericans were sons of Cain" and soon "we never preached men would become Gods".
• compulsory belief in current version of Orwellian theology
• theology not defined
• family excluded from wedding ceremonies.
• major donations to Prop 8
• membership numbers are totally cooked.
• they just dropped $5 billion on a shopping mall and condos.
• members are forced to clean the toilets.
• womens' wedding apparel requirements are vague and subjective, so on you wedding day you have a bunch of pesky grannies nitpicking about your sleeve lengths.
• funerals can't be about the life of the deceased.

(originally sent form iphone, edited)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 05:36PM by reinventinggrace.

I agree. Nevermo's are going to care more about things happening now than what happened 150 years ago. And there's plenty to go on.

My input would be how the top leaders knowingly and willingly withhold information not only to keep members from bolting, but to make it easier to win converts. Potential decision-altering information is withheld from investigators during their introduction to the church, with more and more information parsed out to them after they are snagged. Even still, a church member may go his or her life in the church and never be made privy to all the information. It is a very dishonest and unethical process. Due to not being armed with all the available information about the church, even long-time members may not have enough information to make proper judgments about the very church they are dumping money and time into.

I love your area. Wish I could be there.

you have to put something in about 'feelings' and 'the witness of the holy ghost'....

how feelings are much more important than facts.

how a person is coached about how they are supposed to feel when the church [missionary] is presenting something which is ***true***

how these 'feelings' are supposed to run the church, with every decision being 'witnessed by the holy ghost'

make a list of 8 things that a mormon just believes

and start from there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 10:50AM by scooter.

scooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> make a list of 8 things that a mormon just
> believes
>
> and start from there.


you'd have to be careful with that, because "things that a mormon just believes' may *no longer* be things that the church believes coughGodsOfOurOwnPlanetscough

You're in a very prime area to give this speech. I'd make a couple of references to a "nearby" hill and how there is NO evidence of a great battle taking place within hundreds of miles in any amount of history. No swords, bones, chariots, elephants, etc near an area where 2 million were supposedly slaughtered and this set of plates were then buried in this hill as a remnant of this conflict. It's complete hogwash.

Other than that, I'd stick to an evolving what we say vs what we do vs historical changes to fit in the mainstream. Focus on relevant and current changes.

Bump - is there a return and report from this?

If it were me I would bring up the racial ideas in scripture that are found NOWHERE else like the white people turning black and then white again......due to sin.

Next I would bring up the blacks ban from the priesthood.

Then I would discuss the opression of women through confessions to bishops, Stake presidents, leaders, etc. Non participation of women because of no priesthood. And what that creates in a persons mind.......oppression.

As a free thinker/atheist, here is what would be interesting to me;

How does the Church capitalize on the human tendency to believe false ideas?

I think most in your audience aren't that interested in Mormonism per se, but are interested in understanding the ways people can maintain bizare beliefs in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence. Examples of the most bizarre will be interesting, but they don't need to be convinced that Mormons are bat shit crazy. They already know it.

1. Intensive indoctrination that truth can be discerned by having a good feeling, after studying something out in your mind and praying about it. Mormons do believe strongly that this is a valid means of discovering the truth.

2. Strong admonition to avoid information which conflicts with your beliefs.

3. Indoctrination that the uneasy feelings that come when you are exposed to information that calls your beliefs into question is an indication that Satan is trying to deceive you.

4. Indoctrination that loss of your belief is one of the worst things that can happen to you.

5. Encouragement and pressure to bear your testimony even if you don't have one while you wait for God to help you believe what you are saying.

6. Provision of multiple ways to discard information and arguments contrary to your beliefs;
A. Some day it will be revealed
B. Not essential to my salvation
c. Science often changes what it claims, new information may proove them wrong on this point.
D. I will put this on the shelf for now, I know there is an answer but I will find it later
F. Smarter people than I have looked at this and still believe. (apologists, prophets)
G. God is testing me and allowing me to demonstrate faith.
H. Satan is trying to lead me astray and I need to put this out of my mind.

7. Others...(I have to go)

Oooo. Nice. That's a great list to start.

Thanks. And talking about testimonies and truth by feeling leads easily to the tension between science and mythology. I love talking about cog dis. Again, not unique to TSCC, but definitely a core element to be discussed.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 12:32PM by NerdLinger.

I think it is important to try and explain the Mormons believe they have truth and are arrogant about it and remain willfully ignorant and afraid of anything that seems to conflict with their path to eternal salvation. Their truth trumps facts and opposing experience.... Mormons keep their eye on the prize. They are master spin doctors on making every challenge being a test from Satan or a lesson God enter them to learn. And they dwell in fear and shame of being seen doing anything "wrong" by another Mormon and punished by God.

Thanks everyone so far.

I think one of the keys to making this thing fly in 40 minutes (not a lot of time) will be sticking to what makes the biggest impact to a church outsider today.

I love the idea from EssexExMo about using the clip from BoM The Musical. That song is so awesome I have it set to my ringtone for when any of my TBM family call.

I plan on touching on the obfuscation by TSCC, but that isn't really what makes Mormons unique (pretty much every religion has skeletons in its closet and tries to keep the door shut).

I think I must hit the big ones: blacks, women, polygamy. My personal favorite, as a journalist, is the truth behind the death of JS, including the Nauvoo Expositor, which obviously requires some background on his character.

But I also don't want to spend too much time on history. I want to leave enough time to address the church today, where it gets it money and how it gets used.

And then I still have to leave time for Q&A. This is going to be a challenge. But it will be fun.

Don't underestimate the time you need for Q&A. This is often the time the audience most enjoys and gets the most from.

I've given presentations to nevermo church audiences and consistently find that they are anxious to ask questions right up front. That could be a good way to start as it's lively and gets people involved but you have to maintain control enough that you still have time to present your own main points and in a cohesive way.

I always prepare more talking points than I know I'll have time for but I focus on just a couple and make sure I have time to get to those. This part depends a lot on how an early Q&A goes. I try to anticipate questions and make sure I have short but complete answers for them. Repeated or follow up questions may show areas where the audience has no information or comprehension that may need more explanation and time from you or may show where their interest lies. I try not to push my own areas of interest but take clues as to what they want to hear about.

Of course, it's different with a secular audience and perhaps they may know even less about Mormonism than most churchgoers do. Perhaps a brief broad overview of Mormon history and doctrine would be instructive for them as an intro to your presentation.

I also find that nevermos don't necessarily grasp the significance of some points the way exmos do. If it is too obscure or takes a lot of explanation I would leave it out.

I don't necessarily agree that all churches are the same as the Mormon Church in terms of church history and doctrine. In my experience in attending a variety of Christian denominations, their church history is taught in a historically verifiable way and definitely their doctrines are set out for any casual inquirer to easily see and understand. I agree with the comment above that investigators of Mormonism are not told the salient facts either before or even after their baptism. "Some things that are true are not very useful" is a Mormon principle that certainly applies here, in my own experience and in working with Mormon missionaries to try and convert people.

I agree that it's a good plan to choose the unique features of Mormonism to discuss, rather than any beliefs or practices that are similar to other churches.

I'd say it would be a good idea to run your talk by a few nevermos ahead of time and see if it is easily understandable and especially if the points are significant to a non-mo audience.

For instance, to many exmos the BoA is a huge smoking gun. To outsiders who have never heard of the BoA and wouldn't know JS if they tripped over him, not so much.

Also, changing doctrines, while of tremendous significance to exmos who were brought up with the precept that doctrine never changes, is a yawner for many nevermos. We were going to be gods and now we're not? Y.A.W.N.

Unless you can come up with a way to explain the significance of such changes and again, if it takes too much explanation, I'd find a different aspect of Mormonism to discuss.

Seems like you have a big challenge ahead. Good luck with it! Your return and report will be most interesting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 12:53PM by Nightingale.

Give us a report on the Q and A. That part may not be included in the youtube vid.

thanks.

nevermos are flabbergasted that marments are assigned (as in told) where they have to go for their Sunday service.

the idea of not being able to CHOOSE where you want to go to church is BEYOND BELIEF.

some old lady being told that lines have been redistricted and that now she has to attend another church full of people she doesn't know. THAT'S CRAZY TALK!!

it directly contradicts the 1st Amendment.

Start with that as an opener. That's enough to tell 'em that marments are nucking futs!

This happened to me as a convert.

I had no clue about boundaries and assigned wards. All the terminology is confusing to converts, if we even hear it.

I was meeting with the missionaries at my friends' home, friends who just happened to be Mormon and lived about an hour's drive away from me. It took me four months to decide to be baptized, which the mishies told me was an exceptionally long time. Most people, they told me, convert after just one or two of the "discussions". I don't like to be rushed, about anything, and even four months felt like too short a time for me.

We didn't attend church much, maybe only once before I said I wanted to get baptized. The mishies told me afterwards that they purposely avoided taking their investigators to church as "the members ruin it for us"; i.e., often something happens that will make an investigator run in the other direction.

Only after I was baptized (a very disappointing experience that I did not enjoy at all) did they tell me that from now on I would be attending a different ward, without the missionaries I knew or my TBM friends.

IOW, as a brand new member I was to walk into a strange church where I knew no-one and just start attending there. Not likely.

Between that and my unhappy baptism experience, I didn't go.

What a surprise.

The local missionaries came calling and worked on me for six whole weeks before I agreed to give it a try. Without a lot of long term missionary attention I would definitely have just faded away.

Ironically, as I was in the process of leaving the church a few yrs later, my TBM friends, the only ones I ever had, moved into my area and attended church in the same building as me, but still a different ward. We weren't even "allowed" to attend church services in the same building if it wasn't our assigned ward.

I think that degree of control and rules like that is a shocker for nevermos.

One of the big questions for me is why people submit, including myself. Of course, once you ask yourself that you are more likely to decide not to at some point. That's a good thing. I should be in charge myself of my own friendships and church activities and spiritual times.

Kolob, Kolob, Kolob!

Personally, I'd spend some time highlighting the seamier or most shocking rituals . . . particularly the things that Mitt Romney did before his mission:

1. Death Oaths

2. Covenanting to consecrate all his time, talent, money?, and everything with which he was blessed to the building up of the Kingdom of God on this Earth. That's pretty spooky when one considers Romney wants to become the POTUS. (So he's going to make the U.S. a theocracy by converting all of it's citizens to Mormonism???)

3. Getting naked during the initiatory and allowing some man to touch intimate/private places all over his body with oil.

Just my 2 cents.

;o)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2012 06:16PM by shannon.

Everybody is fascinated with that topic.

Mitt's g-grandfather left the United States and settled with other Mormons in a polygamous colony in Mexico . . . after both U.S. law and then the church cracked down on the practice in the Utah territory near the turn of last century.

I'd point out that, even though that colony didn't survive, there are numerous break-away sects that still practice polygamy in the U.S. today, namely the FDLS. I'd remind them of the Texas Raid and that whack-job "Prophet" Warren Jeffs. The fundamentalist folks are following Mormonism exactly as it is was practiced in the early days. Most U.S. Mormons are descended from Polygamists. We're all cut from the same cloth.

;o)

Overall, I think the speech went well. But I will take a different approach next time.

I said there would be video ... but there were time and facilities issues.

We watched "The Mormon Candidate," which was interesting. If you get a chance, watch it. You can find it in a six-part series on YouTube.

Where I went wrong was digging a little too much into dogma. A lot of what we ex-mos find wrong with TSCC is particularly nuanced, so it was hard to explain properly in the time allowed.

Next time around, I'll mostly tell my own story, without delving too far into the particular doctrine. It's a balance to tell enough to tell the story right and still make it personal.

The questions were mostly about my experience, how to deal with missionaries when they knock on the door (I prefer the first sign of the Melchizedek Penishood), my perception of the future of Mormon Inc (that the Internet will continue to be a problem and members will leave when they find out the truth), how my family reacted when I left (I still have contact and wasn't disowned) and my relationships with them now (tense, but still intact). Those are the areas I'll focus more next time.

This speech was for a group based in Syracuse. I deal with a group in Rochester more and they have been asking for this kind of thing as well.

The Rochester group was already planning to go to the Hill Cumorah Pageant in Palmyra, just to see the spectacle. To make the trip perfect, we're planning an encore speech for me earlier that day, right in the village of Palmyra. EvilTemptress (my wife's RfM handle) and I were not planing on going, but this makes it worth it.

After what I learned last weekend, I'm looking forward to giving a better presentation. We'll plan a little more time for Q&A and this time, I'll be sure to get video for YouTube.

be so gullible as to buy into such obvious BS, you may want to point out how in retrospect it is a no brainer. But, from the inside it all made perfect sense. Thinking your way out is one of the intellectual accomplishments of your life. Suggest that if everyone in your audience were born in Utah, many of them may still be there.

I can't believe they thought that would actually work. That just by issuing that statement those who are genetically predisposed to do the thinking for themselves would just... stop thinking.