I guess this was someone's popular line during GC.

Why does it bug me so much that it's coming from the church? If anyone else said, I'd be like....whatever....cool....peace out.

But coming from the church? The place I was judged so harshly for questioning history? The place that judged my family after my parents divorced? The place that judged me for marrying a nevermo and leaving?

Granted, I didn't listen to the talk so I don't know the context. Just the thought that it came out of some big wig's judgy mouth makes me sick.

I was visiting my TBM son & family, and although I didn't sit down and focus (nor did my son) for the whole time, they did have it on the TV in the family room.

I happened to hear Uctdorf's talk this morning. A German accent always gets my attention. I believe the quote came from him.

Is he a convert? I ask because I know a lot of European converts who still believe and talk about how everyone is a sinner.

As he spoke, I kept thinking, "Wow, he's talking about how we're all sinners, and not about how we should all be trying to attain perfection."

Mainstreaming? Response to the criticism that LD$ is too focused on JS?

I was bad, I didn't listen closely. I was having too much fun playing with my grandkids, one of whom is close to taking his first steps.

But still, I don't think Uctdorf talked about JS or the restoration even once. He just kept saying "don't judge others."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 03:53AM by PapaKen.

Don't judge others, unless you hold the priesthood. Then it's required that you judge others, but there's no sin in it, cuz you're doing god's work.

Oh, and your wife is allowed to help you judge others, too. Cuz she holds the priesthood thru you.

I FIGURED IT OUT!!!! I figured out why this "line" or his "talk" or whatever it is bugging me so much.

For people who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus, none of this should be such a huge revelation to them.

It's something they should have been teaching and practicing all along.

That is all.

Carry on.

Also there is a judgement buried in that statement....

teaching - "Don't judge others because they sin differently than you"

practice - "We all sin, so I don't judge Henry because he is gay."


See how the judgement remains?

YES! EXACTLY!!!!!!! This is what I couldn't put my finger on.

The underlying judgment that exists in that statement.

There's an image circulating on my FB page

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=287292034680211&set=a.244433998966015.59356.244431388966276&type=1&theater

It bugs me because people are acting like this is some HUGE revelation that has been made by this idol of theirs....NO IT'S NOT! It's called being nice, and it really ticks me off when "being nice" is equated with being LDS.

They don't own my moral character!!!!!

The statement bugs me because it is an issue of magnitude. I'm all for the idea that everyone makes mistakes and in general we should not get our panties in a twist over it. I sure hope the person I turned left in front of earlier today is still not cursing my name.

When you belong to a religion that assigns magnitude to sin, it is hard to not judge someone because they sin differently. Example: I took the lords name in vain, you murdered and raped. No big deal! You just sin differently!

I vaguely remember some scripture that all sin in the same before god...but I can't find any reference. If there is a scripture I think it says something like all sin is reprehensible to god and (OMG!) folklore has turned it into the idea that all sin is equal. But if you read the bible and other materials (Miracle of Forgiveness, anyone?), all over it assigns magnitude to sin.

Humanity has a pretty easy time dealing with minor magnitude - you grabbed my toy and I pinched you back. Not the same sin, but comes out equal (judgment) and then everyone moves on. We don't move on when the magnitude between sins is different or when the sins in general have large magnitude. We judge the size of the sin and act accordingly.

Nice sentiment, totally unrealistic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 02:18PM by goatsgotohell.

+1

My thoughts exactly.

If you steal 5 billion dollars, vs $1 i'm going to judge you differently.

VERY TRUE!

I really appreciate this insight and perspective. The magnitude issue really made me pause...and think deeper. Thank you so much for taking a few minutes to respond.

I was bugged by the statement, and then bugged that it was bugging me. I couldn't put my finger on it, but you guys are really helping me get to the core of my "bugness" :)

I have a suspicion (or a revelation from God or whatever) that I'm going to find myself in a convo with some TBM family about this "talk", more specifically this particular statement. I really appreciate hearing what others think, so I can pinpoint what I want to convey.

Thank you so much!

Whats funny is uchtdorf was quoting a bumper sticker he saw recently. He even said so in the talk. All the tbm's are attributing it to him. Are you shitting me? Revelation thru bumpr stickers now?

that's cute. He's so profound.

Shoot, I wanted to believe he was watching old Bob Newhart sketches. Bob even has a German name here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw

+ fucking 1

Hallelujah! And as a sidenote, Mormons don't sin! Well, they aren't supposed to have the normal sins most of the world has. Who are they kidding?

Out of all the talks given in conference, I thought Uchtdorf's was the only one that was worthwhile. I get what you guys are saying about magnitude of sin, but I'm pretty sure what he was referring to was not getting your panties in a twist because I'm drinking coffee, while you skip church once a month. Those kinds of things. It was a stellar talk because it was about not being judgmental, loving everyone, and being kind. I found little not to love about it.

Now where I start to get annoyed is:

There was a meme with the quote circulating on facebook within, seriously, 2 hours of him speaking. Which means that Mormon women are sitting at their computer, seizing on any remotely valid things the leaders are saying, and rushing to be the first ones to reproduce it. Oh, you are so spiritual. I want to be like you.

But what really gets me is that it's attributed to HIM, when he had just said he saw it on an effing bumper sticker.

This reminds me of how much of an idiot I felt like, even as an active member, when I was attributing the "Be kind. Everyone you meet is fighting a tough battle" quote to Marjorie Hinckley, when in reality it was from Plato (and who knows if that is even true, but Plato came before Marjorie, so I'm assuming that the Plato attribution is more correct than the Marjorie attribution.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 06:47PM by sdee.

I agree. It was the only talk I really liked. I always like Uchtdorf's talks, though. My only complaint about him is that if he continues saying good stuff all the time he's going to keep the mormon ship floating, and it really needs to sink. Granted, the crap that flew around from most of the other talks didn't help his campaign.

He seems to be the only one aware of the real problems among the members, and usually focuses on addressing them, like he did in this case.

Words like his would be greatly appreciated by me, if he wasn't so full of shit while he was saying them.

The Mormon church gets it's bread and butter from treating other people like garbage so it can make those who aren't ostracized feel morally superior.

I agree with the OP, this statement bugs the shit out of me. Even more so are the legions of twits squirting themselves over this statement like it's fucking manna from heaven. This isn't prophecy or revelation, it's FUCKING COMMON SENSE.

God damn it.

I think the statement was made as much for helping us to love each other and lay aside our judgments of each other as to keep us from judging those not of our faith. You are right, it is something we ought to have done all along and clearly something that we need to learn. People of any common faith or background will tend to develop a culture and traditions whether they be right or wrong. But the correctness or incorrectness of the culture that develops between people who are striving to serve Christ does not negate the institution through which they are unified. The Lord's church is his church and belonging to it or professing his name does not make me more worthy than my brothers outside of my faith. What makes anyone worthy is the grace of Christ inasmuch as one is striving to serve Christ.

I would caution that one should take care not to judge those whom he feels judged by; for then he would be guilty himself of the fault that he finds in his brother. I do not mean to contend. I only hope to share those things which have recently come to light for myself. I recently lost my wife and children and was very angry at the Lord and at the Church. I felt judged for my "single" status although I had poured my heart and soul into my faith.

But through it I learned what it feels like to be judged and how I had been guilty of judging others for the whole of my life. I am certain that I am still guilty of judging others. But I hope that the fact that I recognize it and am working on it counts for something.

I love my Savior and I know that he lives! He has changed my heart in ways that I never believed possible. But when I had hit rock bottom, and I confess I wanted to end my own life for a number of months, he reached out to me through loving individuals. Many of the very people I was angry with because I felt their judgement, proved to be kind and understanding. Their hearts were full of love and desire to uplift me. I had judged them. I was angry with them because I felt their judgement when my life was hard. But they are children in the gospel as am I. And though we can be petty and harsh at times, we all likewise have the propensity to be forgiving and loving. These people were true followers of Christ! They are imperfect. But they follow Christ the best that they can!

I'm sorry for your loss. If believing in the Mormon church helps you deal with it, then I'm happy that at least it helps someone. Whether or not it's actually true probably doesn't matter in your situation, you just need something to hold on to that gives you hope for the future. That's completely understandable. If that's what you need right now, please DON'T do any research on the history of the Mormon church, polygamy, the first vision, the book of Abraham etc. Don't look into it unless you reach a point in your life when finding out the truth becomes more important than your emotional need. I hope you can recognize that the path which is best for you may not be the best for everyone. I hope you find peace and happiness, whether within or outside the Mormon religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2012 03:43PM by sexismyreligion.

Everyone makes judgments all the time. I think the key is not the judgment itself, but how that judgment influences external actions.

I'm never angry at people who judge me and show it by their actions. I'm more surprised, disappointed, shocked, and appalled. Sometimes I'm amused by it. I think that their actions reveal more about their characters (narrow-minded, rigid, and spiteful) than they do about me. I focus on behaving well around these people (if I must interact with them,) despite their behavior toward me. I don't see forgiveness/lack of forgiveness as really being an issue. They are who they are. I have no control over that. I avoid them when I can.

I'm sorry for your loss. You didn't make it clear if the loss is through death or divorce/abandonment. Either way, it's horrible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2012 09:30AM by summer.

Dear guy above, apologies for your loss- that is horrible.

If you search these pages, however, you will know that the people here are not stupid, maybe harsh and pissed, but not stupid.

This web site is for people who want to be angry and voice displeasure at the church because it's a hoax. We aren't really trying to learn anything spiritual from would-be preachers.

All the best.

Some guys tug their birds.

Other guys forget to wake up before dawn and read scripture.

One can't get a temple recommend; the other gets to sit on the stand and look down upon the sheeple with much pride in his heart for his awesomeness and closeness to god pining for (not judging) the souls of the guys who tug their birds.

Funny, one of my TBM friends send me a note on FB about this too. The bumper sticker is cute, nothing against it; what bugs me is the implication -- he as a TBM is really saying "you sin differently" (as an apostate) and "I'm feeling guilty because I hold it against you but I guess I shouldn't." That part is bothering me the most.

The reason it offends is because it assumes that your behavior is sinful. Most "sinful" behavior is anything but wrong. Homosexuality, watching/making porn, premarital sex, masturbation, not paying tithing, moderate drinking, coffee/tea digesting, not hording food, all of these are reasonable and acceptable adult behaviors that the church condemns, and I only scratched the surface.

I'm LDS and I'm grateful I came across this page because I feel it really opened my eyes about how judgemental some feel LDS members are.

Well isn't that what apostles should do is tell the members what we're doing wrong?

I think Elder Uchtdorf hit the nail on the head. Go read the rest of his talk I really thing it could be helpful to some. He talks about having mercy for others and also for ourselves.

I found that sometimes I have felt judged when no judgements are actually going on.

Church isn't true. Sorry.

Wah Wah.

I no longer had any idea what people meant by 'sin'.

You can't have sin without a creator, a judge, a long list of absolute black and white commandments, and punishment in an afterlife. I have none of that in my personal philosophy any more.

I've lost the capacity to sin in a way that is much more effective that baptism.

I just saw this one on FB. I made sure to point out the fact that it came from a bumper sticker. People truly see what they want to see.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=426710990679173&set=a.281658175184456.88989.230630070287267&type=1

The do not judge me-attitude seems to be a bit confusing.

There is laws.

But if someone break them one is not allowed to judge theose who break them.

I had a causal chat with a catholic vicar some years ago. I told him that most of the people I known did not marry before having sex and said something kind of reactionary like that they had no virtue.

He suddenly told me with a very harsh voice that I should not to judge them.

It all shook me up and when I tried put on my jacket the vicar commented on my confused state and said something derogatory like; Hey, is it so difficult to put on the jacket?

It seems to me that most of the christians denominations are built on a logical structure that falls directly on its own premises and attitudes.


Is there any laws at all?

The old fella was exercising proper caution.

Philosophically speaking it is the 'Both/And Principle'

Modern people, especially and almost entirely in the West, tend to think and formulate thoughts Syllogistically rather than utilising Realism.

It has been said this is one dis-advantage of having not enough speaking and listening in education. The Socratic method for instance puts the students into an employ... say, rowing a boat while the wise old man tells stories. We have tried to get back to it a little bit at the university level, with outdoor classes in the Spring, but so far nothing has touched the old way.


I have learned my most while working in the garden and taking breaks to read men like Thomas Merton, Peter Kreeft, and Joseph Ratzinger. (I have much bigger list but these will do for illustration)

I'm not perfect, but if I see somebody doing something that is blatantly wrong, I think I have every right to judge them.

I know people who are pathetic parents, bad business people, rotten relatives, terrible teachers, and lousy legislators. There, I just judged them! I also reserve the right act on these judgements if I have to interact with them and it affects me.

Key point: I'm NOT saying I should be mean or hurtful, but you can rate businesses on Angie's List, talk to the principal about a teacher you feel isn't doing their job or work on a political campaign to replace a legislator you don't like.

All of those actions are the result of judgements, and I think we all judge others in one way or another on a daily basis. I think it's when you're hurtful about it that it's a bad thing.

Wow! There seems to be a lot of judging going on on the subject of not judging. I would think that a bunch of people who don't think very highly of the church, many because they have been judged, would praise this message. You would think he was up there saying "make sure you point out all the things you see that don't conform to your beliefs" or something. Most of you have pointed out an obvious problem with the church yet when it is attempted to address that problem you have an issue with that as well.

#1 - I don't think highly of the church because it sold me a bill of goods that was one huge lie. I know the church judges me becuase I am an apostate and they are right.

#2 Members may judge me because I have tequila in my cart at Costco and Uchtdorf isn't going to change that. They have a standard and I don't meet it.

#3 Yes, this is an obvious problem with the church. Yes, the church is addressing it. Judging is also an obvious problem with the world in general. If there is a standard, an expectation, a moral then there is a judgment. To me it is pretty obvious that judging is not going to just go away.

#4 The church preaches this dandy from the pulpit at the same time it judges those who do not pay a full tithe, those who can't pray away their homosexuality, those who fornicate, those who shop on the sabbath, those who drink coffee, ad naseum. If the church truly wanted to address a problem of judgment it should start within itself instead of foisting this crap on the membership.

I think everyone knows that we should all be a lot more willing to overlook another's mistakes and a lot more loving and kinder to those who share the world with us. Where the anger and frustration is coming from is the hypocrissy in the statement. The church, god, jesus, the bishop, the court of love are all the judges and any day and every day can be judgment day.

I'm all for them making positive changes and attempting to make an effort to address the perception that LDS are all about how they appear and what they don't do and not so much about what they do for mankind or becoming brothers and sisters of their fellow man and not just each other. I would be all for a revival. Dismantling from the inside out to create a nicer religion. Wishful thinking, I know.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2012 01:53AM by suckafoo.