I am an active, RM, temple married, multiple children, New Order Mormon.

When I watch testimony meetings, I am convinced that the weakness of the church is exposed. Over and over again members proclaim that they "know the church is true," that "Joseph Smith was a prophet," and that the "Book of Mormon is the word of God." Somewhere deep inside, they know how unlikely and preposterous it all is. Over the years they have heard glimpses of true church history, but they choose to consciously ignore it, not wanting to look. I think people "want to believe, so bad." So everyone, from Stake Presidents on down, tell themselves, over and over again, how true it all is. They need to convince themselves. They want to convince themselves. They have invested so much. It is the way they grew up. It is their social network. It is who they are. They resist that rational part of their mind that tells them it is false. They won't let it in. You can see all of this in a testimony meeting.

So, if you take a person like me, give them one book, such as "In Sacred Lonliness," a book about the troublesome and testimony devistating plural marriages of Joseph SMith. A persons faith can be shaken, if not destroyed. Truth sets in. The fairy tale that you have been trying to tell yourself is true, for years dissipates. Like me, you are left knowing it is untrue, but still wanting to believe. It takes just a little study and application of that reason that we are all taught in the educational system, for the mind to realize the truth.

That is why I think several things are happening in the church to combat all of this:

1. The Church has stepped up efforts to have every member share their testimony even more often. Lately, I have observed a conscious effort from the top down, for this to happen. Many meetings turn into testimony meetings, by design. Get people to tell themselves over and over again it is true, makes it harder to step out.

2. Church expectations and requirements have become more rigid and time consuming. Programs and activities have increased, rather than decreased. There are more handcart treking trips in the summer, efforts to dramatically increase temple attendance, cleaning the church... overall there are more and more activities, swallowing up more and more time from members. Recently, the church is teaching that the youth should be doing geneology work. The idea is that they can put their computer skills to work, and feel the spirit of the Lord as they save dead souls... yada yada. I think it is a way to absorb even more time of the youth and sink them deeper and deeper into the church world view.

3. Temple recommends are being checked more often in order to do any ordinance. I have noticed this in the past five years. Whether it be baptizing your children, or going to visit your family members ward to participate in blessing a baby, temple recommends are checked. Certainly this does increase the payment of tithes... but it also pushes members to get a recommend through church participation. To get one, you have to convince leaders that you believe, sufficiently to pass a priesthood interview. All of these things, put pressure on the member to participate at the highest level of activity.

I am sure there are other expamples. This is all from the top of my head. But to me, the Church is actively fighting the increasing lack of faith by making sure members are absorbed, as much as possible into programs. Keep their minds entrenched in the church, so they do not have time or desire to step aside and question their faith.

So, in summary, when I watch a testimony meeting. I see weakness not strength. People are trying to convince themselves. It is obvious by what they say. That is why the church is still quietly resisting true presentations of church history. They may support Richard Bushman, and his books. But they count on the fact that most members won't have time, or desire to crack them, and to use their rational brain to challenge the church.

Like me, it does not take much to bring down the facade of a testimony that most members have. Just exposure to truth. This is why the Church is in so much trouble. Over time, it will be impossible to hold back all the information. We see it happening now.

In my opininion, the church will continue to push members to do more and more, and take up more and more time. This is the only way they can increase control. The church will have a hard time liberalizing, because if they do, members will stop believing. I think, the church will become much more orthodox to keep members in. The disparity between the public image they want to portray (diversity of thought and people) and the truth (non-diversity, especially in thought) will become more stark.

My view. Anyone see the same? Or perhaps you disagree.

I agree. I also think it all comes down to wanting to feel "special." If you believe in the church you are told you are "special" and deserving above everyone else. Who doesn't want to feel special?! So even the THOUGHT of that being taken away after being told you are for years and years is scarier than any other thought could be. So I think a lot of people hold on to their hopes that the church is true because if it's not? Well, that means you aren't "special" anymore and sometimes being faced with the truth really hurts. And then what do you do with your life? Especially if everything in your life is built upon feeling "special" and above everyone else in the World.

just my thoughts from personal experience. :)

Tupperwhere Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree. I also think it all comes down to wanting
> to feel "special." If you believe in the church
> you are told you are "special" and deserving above
> everyone else. Who doesn't want to feel special?!
> So even the THOUGHT of that being taken away after
> being told you are for years and years is scarier
> than any other thought could be. So I think a lot
> of people hold on to their hopes that the church
> is true because if it's not? Well, that means you
> aren't "special" anymore and sometimes being faced
> with the truth really hurts. And then what do you
> do with your life? Especially if everything in
> your life is built upon feeling "special" and
> above everyone else in the World.
>
> just my thoughts from personal experience. :)


Tupperwhere. I think this is a big part of it, that I missed. Also, if your whole family is mormon, and your wife's family is mormon, it controls everyone so much, that the group ensures no diversity in thought. My parents, and one of my brothers get very defensive when I bring-up things about church history, or the hypocrisy of building a mega-mall, yet giving little to charity. They don't want to even discuss it. I think they are afraid. Afraid of what they might hear. Afraid of what they might learn. That is why Mormons can lose faith so quickly. It is already there. They know it. It does not take much.

Well said....just may one day hand that over to my convert daughter to read. You have made great points and it all makes sense as you worded it. I really like the part that says you see "weakness" not strength. And truly that is what it is. They feel weak in their own faith so they drill you with other people's remarks that are repetitive. This is what cults do.

I think you are probably right on every point.

A member isn't supposed to miss church, even when on vacation. They want you to be tethered at all times. They are trying to keep people busy on the internet doing genealogy so they won't look at anything else. I think there is going to be more online busy work assigned so people just don't have the time to find out the truth.

I can only imagine how much turmoil is starting to build in member homes, as their teens go online and find sites like this. They learn about the real church history. Their trust in church and parents is gone forever. There is no bringing it back.

when's the last time you heard an original prayer?

"dear heavenly father, please bless this food that it may nourish and strengthen our bodies, blah blah blah"

just another example I thought of regarding repitition...

As the church is seeing an exodus of members, is it tightening up the reins even more? With the internet, there's too much faith-busting info. Question is, will it drive even more members away?

they'd start liberalizing without any grand announcement, slowly making changes over a generation: let nonmembers attend temple weddings, phase out the magic underpants, relax the 10% god tax, etc. Then just wait for collective amnesia to set in and claim it's always been that way. Never underestimate the power of collective amnesia.

The cat is out of the bag and they'll never get it back in especially in age of instant information. Drawing a line in the sand and trying to monopolize members' time will be polarizing, and they'll lose more that way.

However, they'll last as long as the money lasts and they have a lot of it. Corruption (and whose to say they don't already have a lot of it, since no one really knows) could drain the coffers a lot faster. They are certainly primed for a great fall with no outside accountability. Octogenarians' testosterone levels are diminished so their ambition is degraded, so it would more likely be in middle management to start shaking down the morg (that is if they're not doing it already).

mrtranquility Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they'd start liberalizing without any grand
> announcement, slowly making changes over a
> generation: let nonmembers attend temple weddings,
> phase out the magic underpants, relax the 10% god
> tax, etc. Then just wait for collective amnesia to
> set in and claim it's always been that way. Never
> underestimate the power of collective amnesia.
>
> The cat is out of the bag and they'll never get it
> back in especially in age of instant information.
> Drawing a line in the sand and trying to
> monopolize members' time will be polarizing, and
> they'll lose more that way.
>
> However, they'll last as long as the money lasts
> and they have a lot of it. Corruption (and whose
> to say they don't already have a lot of it, since
> no one really knows) could drain the coffers a lot
> faster. They are certainly primed for a great fall
> with no outside accountability. Octogenarians'
> testosterone levels are diminished so their
> ambition is degraded, so it would more likely be
> in middle management to start shaking down the
> morg (that is if they're not doing it already).


It will be interesting to see which way they go. But in my view, they are polarizing. Publicly, in their commercials they claim they are liberalizing, and will, to some extent on homosexuality because they are taking a PR beating. But, the church is clearly becoming more rigid, not less. They are consuming more time, making more demands, and demanding a more strict form of belief, even if the doctrines they demand you believe are more watered down. For instance, the insistance on temple recommends for all ordinances. Increasing interviews with members. They are trying to control who they have more, so they don't lose them.

It is akin to a demanding and controlling parent puting further demands on the child. The tighter the controls, the more it enhances the need of the child to rebel and become independent.

Every time the leaders increase control with a new directive, SOME members say “Enough!” and leave. These are invariably the church’s most intelligent and/or educated members as suggested by the demographics in John Dehlin’s study ex-Mormons. (See below)

There is an ever-widening crack in the dike of the LDS church. It is only a matter of time until it busts open!

*****
Dehlin’s study of why exmos leave the church showed these percentages regarding the educational level of the 3000+ respondents: “27% ‘Some College,’ 39% college grad, 21% masters, 10% doctorate."
In short, a whopping 97% of those who left had had “some college” education or more!

Link:
http://whymormonsleave.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Mormon_Stories_FC.pdf

I agree with everyones views and comments. Part of me thinks that if one day it is proven worldwide that the BoM is a fraud, the church will say we'll that's okay, it doesn't change anything its hood stuff and JS is actually God or some BS like that. Haha. Omg! Its all so stupid. I have a college degree and I like hard proven facts. :-)

I *KNOW* the sun will rise tomorrow. I *KNOW* gravity is the one true gravity. I *KNOW* I love chocolate.

Of course, part of the whole testimony thing in Mormonism is to make the doubters doubt their doubts. "Gee, EVERYONE says it's real, so maybe it is." Good old group pressure.

MFFS: Mormon Fragile Faith Syndrome


It's the reason why LDS folk don't take well to criticism of their beliefs and culture. Their unacknowledged inner doubts provoke a knee-jerk response to criticism, frequently an outsized response.

Our Stake Presidency is on a temple attendance push.

The Stake President wants everyone to take a day off FROM WORK, to attend the temple.

I LOL'd when I read it.

just look at general conference. it is so damn predictable.

i think most people eventually become NOMs. they really expect you to believe all of it, and it is just impossible.

Mormonism is the only religion in which members constantly tell each other that the church is true. This is because it's the only religion that has to. No other faith is founded on such transparent lies.

Liberalization won't help the church, because its problem is not simply that many of its practices are offensive. The church's main problem is that its foundational and defining claims -- centering on the Book of Mormon and leadership by prophets -- are clearly untrue. This becomes increasingly clear over time.

Liberalization also runs counter to the centralized gerontocracy that the church has become since correlation began in the 1960s. Leaders in their 70s and 80s less likely to have the energy and the flexibility of thought needed to carry through reforms. (I'm pretty old myself, so I think I can say that without being too ageist.)

An elderly leader also tends to view his position, correctly, as the culmination of a long career. He usually has little motive to implicitly repudiate the system in which he has attained success by initiating major changes to it. He is more likely to be concerned with his "legacy," which almost always means some form of stability, which means not taking any risks.

I think you are spot on in your analysis. The facts or rational reasons got me out. When I learned about the psychology of gaining a testimony by the bearing of it--it was in the Ensign no less--i went...hey wait a minute...so a public announcement of what I believe will make me believe...doesn't that mean I could believe anything?

Something else that the church overlooks I think is burnout. For the people that don't care about history, the ones that are there because it feels right--the it makes them happy types--they will start to suffer and want out too.

Does anyone know where I can find that article?

I think cleaning the church is making a lot of people stop and question a few things. I don't think that was very well thought out.

Imagine being a mother of 3 or 4 little kids. You manage to get dinner on the table. Your exhausted. Your husband comes home from work, he also needs some down time.

The evening still includes getting dinner, cleaning that up. Homework for the kids, maybe paying some bills. Getting the kids bathed and ready for bedtime, picking up toys, and all the millions of little chores that come with having a family. Maybe the lawn needs mowed, a faucet needs repaired etc.

Somewhere in all of that you and hubby have to load up the cranky whining kids and go to the church and clean it. Your feeling resentful at best. If you had that kind of time and energy you would rather have been cleaning out the garage, the closets, painting a room, fixing something that needs fixed. Or just spending some quiet time with kids or working on a hobby, talking to a friend.

Nope, you write out a tithing check you can't afford, and go clean the church.

I think that the church is driving people away in droves with their insane demands and cultish isolation. I really started to question things when they spent 7 million to buy a street. Hubby and I were literally starving to pay our tithing. We kept waiting for promised relief and they spent our hard earned 10% of gross on a STREET.

I went 6 years without a winter coat (in utah) or warm shoes, or a bike, or a haircut, or a visit to the Dr. or Dentist, or a movie, or a hamburger, or a vacation. We couldn't afford soccer for the kids, or to keep the house warm, or to continue our education, or..ok on a bit of a tangent.

Now we have a 5 billion dollar mall and people who are suffering through the recession. Now they are saying to "Obey" and "Endure" and if I were still in I would be asking WTH? There is little to no acknowledgment of the sacrifice of members. Conference so far has NO meat, just more of the same. I would be writing my resignation letter today.

To survive they will have to fully accept gays, tell women to get an education & postpone marriage, get rid of the undies, create an actual social culture, allow people to do exciting & fulfilling things, create an open tithe with no requirements, let people drink coffee & wine, give women the priesthood, change the freaky ass temple ceremony to more symbolism, back of the obey crap, be honest about church history, level about inaccruacies & lies in the BOM, admit the book of Abraham was BS, talk about polygamy, stop dead dunking people, unlock the wards & let people go where they want to, stopy tying trite rituals to salvation, & stop socially and emotionally isolating their members.

People are having nervous breakdowns and are unable to function around others who aren't Mo. The church is absolutely at a tipping point and they are going down in flames. Perhaps I don't care except for those who are still in and they are doing great harm to themselves by trying to remain faithful.

Funny you mentioned the dentist. When my daughter married a Mormon she insisted he go see a dentist before the wedding (civil). He had not been to a dentist for 16 yrs. Family of 10 - one of 8 kids and i imagine all of them hadn't seen a dentist that long. It so angered me. And I thought THIS is what you, my dear daughter, want to get tangled up in. Anyhow he did go...had two cavities and life goes on. So sorry for all you sacrificed so they could buy a street. I would have been beyond angry.

There's alway 5-10 families in every ward that do 90% of the work. Those 5-10 families start to get resentful of the slackers that say, "No, we won't be able to clean the church. It's our only day together as a family and we're going to go to the park for a picnic". (The people that are refusing to clean are usually happy and content in the church...until they start to hear snide comments and gossip about them)

So the valiant martyrs pick up the slack and take an extra turn cleaning the church. They are not singing the song, "Whistle while you work...", but they are bitching and moaning to each other how they shouldn't have to do it. Lots of resentment is brewing.

I got out 4 years ago and this was definitely the case. The missionaries are complaining about the members because they aren't referring their nonmember friends. The RS Pres. are frustrated that the women aren't getting their VT done and they have to report crappy numbers. The activities committee are mad that they are only given $80 to feed 300 people at the word social. So they ask the members to each contribute a dish or food item, and the members are angry because they're already giving the church 10%. I heard one woman almost start screaming about being asked to bring 1/2 pound of grated cheese to the social. Lots and lots of anger.

There's also getting to be lots of Pharasaical rules, like number of earrings, not letting your toddler wear a sundress, modesty, white shirt wearing, etc. I think these rules are starting to get to people. Lots and lots of anger brewing.

was what made me smile. Teens are overburdened with schoolwork, jobs, and other stresses as it is. I can just imagine the response to adding another basically meaningless chore to their lives. I think that one is going quietly fade away. Who thinks these things up? Certainly not the teens!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2012 05:30PM by Adult of god.

So weak people are considered to be also rational, logical
intelligent beings who question the fabrications and mind controlling mormonism, who do not depend on feelings to know jesus is lord, or fat buddah is buddah etc, but the facts of historic evidence that great men existed, but the resurrection
power to one only christ, the bible says trust in the word not in feelings nor in other angels preaching another message than the bible or else that church and people are accursed.

So born of the spirit of fire, then sealed up in water full emersed baptism where two or more are gathered thus grace authority, in some church is considered apostasy to mormonism
and treason and weak...

Who are the weak, all of us obviously but it takes a fool to keep getting whacked over the head by mormon leaders authority ruling over ya. Its all about stability, behaviour to protect the image of the church more so than the person themselfs.
I find that keeping all the mormon commandments have me terminated quickly from self-rightous pressure and over powering smart ass marfia looking bishops who dont like that, so down with a pint or two and rock up at church and they cant say much unless they smell it, as it calms ya and we can sit back and enjoy with ridicule and laughter their authority but offer no threat to it and walk away peacefully knowing they are just man not chosen, nor off god as if they were, they would not judge the way they do. The problem with mormonism is that they really believe they are gods spokemen on the earth and such a cult is against the basic good news of the new testiment
but justify it as a living christ but remove the blood and have water for sacrament. Even the false catholicism still has the red wine or otherwise non alcoholic grape juice. There is some substance to the madness.
Mormon purity is cold and makes me tremble to enter its building so a stiff drink especially anything red, calms the beast pondering on the love of christ and his atonement for our sins and the good news message to enter into christ rightousness and deny our own stinking filthy rags of rightousness.. Mormonism does not teach this.
Its symbolism reaches the sun, stars and moon with pagen signs on its temples just like catholics on their momumental buildings and itself.... And the whole world wandered after the beast, sucked in by feeling and one world govenment where relegion and state comes together, the bible says are deceived....

Oh no we are decieved for rebuking the word of the bible for celestial doctrines that are above and beond the bible and prophets likewise, obey them or be destroyed..

fear and guilt and that keeps us weak not strong save it be if we can avoid suicide and family break up, then maybe we are strong in a foolish sense and wasted all those years bickering as deep down we know its all a pile of BS so why bother.
Because its MIND CONTROL PROGRAMMED......

Here's a carrot follow me..

Larry..

I know what you mean about the weakness showing in fast and testimony meeting. The part that makes it most obvious to me is the children: You have all seen it when a parent goes up with a child and tells said child what to say and you have all seen many children go up and parrot the same testimony over and over again. You and I know that those children DON'T know anything they say in those testimonies but they say it enough they start believing. Then you notice that with the exception of the travalogues the adult testimonies are basically the same thing as the children's and the only difference is the adults have convinced themselves they do know those things. I believed until I decided that I only wanted to believe if it was true and I found out it wasn't. Life changes when you accept that you could be wrong and that is okay because you can change.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx

A couple of excerpts from the Jan. 31/12 report:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is losing a record number of its membership. A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years."

"Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and 'attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years.' Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving."

The linked Reuters special report, "Mormonism besieged by the modern age", said:

"A religious studies class late last year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

"Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are 'leaving in droves?' a woman asked.

"'We are aware,' said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. 'And I'm speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church."

"'My own daughter,' he then added, 'has come to me and said, "Dad, why didn't you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?" For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, 'Everything's out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.' The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are 'severely outdated.'"

"These are tumultuous times for the faith founded by Joseph Smith in 1830, and the rumbling began even before church member Mitt Romney's presidential bid put the Latter-Day Saints in the spotlight."

(Ref. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131 )

"In Sacred Loneliness" was quite eye-opening even as an exmo--

When my daughter went back to the lds church--I had gone inactive when they were around 8 years old (twins)--she had been very anti for a while, more anti than my son and I. I've talked to my exmo therapist about it quite often and one thing he pointed out is that every time a truth seeps into her "virtual reality helmet" of mormonism, she has to do something else to reinforce her beliefs. She often goes to her singles ward and the ward I live in in one day, then a fireside. She does baptisms for the dead once a week. She reads the scriptures at least an hour a day and then records her thoughts in journals. She reads a conference talk daily.

For me--I had to go inactive (for personal reasons, not because of lack of belief) and step away for a while for it to finally fall apart. I didn't get my constant dose of indoctrination any longer.

My daughter just recently is taking a genealogy class in college. She so wanted to find someone to do a baptism for. She finally gave up on my side of the family this week as anything and everything has been done on both my family lines. She is so discouraged with genealogy work now.

But she finds it quite delightful that she has yet to have been asked to clean a building in the 5 or 6 years she has been TBM.

I was told by an old (mid 80's) high priest that their group had taken on the task of bringing back inactive members. I don't know if that is in fact the case or if he just said that to justify the pressure he exerts on me on occasion to come back. I ignore what he says but in a respectful non-confrontational manner because that is how is was raised. I will NEVER go back, or expose my Catholic wife to the denigration she would face if I did. I learned this weekend that the daughter of a good friend had been baptized this weekend. She'd gone to live with her father in Magrath (AB) and I'm sure, was swarmed by her classmates to join. I feel sorry for her and I'm sure her non-mo Mom is troubled by it...

The more control you lose in one place...


...the more control you try to assert in another place.