I took the time today to walk City Creek Center, the multi-billion dollar downtown makeover recently opened by the Mormon Church and Taubman Centers, Inc. My observations:

- Overall, it looks very nice. The use of outdoor design elements, including a flaming water fountain done by the same company that does the Bellagio fountains, and the overall pedestrian feel, all work to boost downtown's appeal in spades.

- Main Street runs right through the middle of it all. The frequent passing of light rail eases access for shoppers and gives it a good urban feel. For the sake of the city itself, I hope the draw is permanent and that non-mall stores further south on Main Street get a boost too.

- The stream that runs through it has trout. We Utahns love trout. Security should be prepared to tell anyone with a 3 weight fly rod to pack it in and head home. Knowing how security runs downtown, I think they're up to that tongue-in-cheek task. Especially if the guy's fishing vest is purple and his polarized lenses are bedazzled.

- It seems fitting to see Utah's most upscale mall with The Cheesecake Factory as its showcase restaurant. Oh, there's valet parking right in front of it too.

- Foot traffic, even on a Sunday, was high. I saw a few people walk up to stores and try to go in, then walking away confused and wondering why none of the stores at such a new, fancy establishment weren't open today. The church is sticking to its guns on Sunday shopping. Will it last?

- The store lineup is pretty comprehensive. Coach, Tiffany, Porsche Design, Brooks Brothers, and Utah Woolen Mills on the high end. Nordstrom and Macy's as anchors. H&M, Gap, Express, and J Crew on the more affordable side, relatively speaking. And let's not forget Mr. Mac, a Utah clothing institution. But it's the high end that sets this apart from Fashion Place in Murray.

- True Religion Jeans is evidently coming soon. <Insert wry comment here.>

I visited the LDS Freedom Forum and found rigorous, thoughtful, and outright crazy comments from that board:

"I saw an ad on KSL TV (local Salt lake station) recently by the church promoting the new City Creek Plaza as if it were owned and operated by some wealthy billionaire or Fortune 500 company (they were talking up all the fancy apparel stores, fine dining and luxury items that will be available for shoppers). I couldn't help but wonder how this would look to members in other states or even countries if they saw the ad or the plaza complex itself? How many stories have we all heard from the pulpit or read in the Ensign about some family in South Africa that saved up for six months just to be able to walk several miles to their temple? Imagine that same family seeing this commercial on TV or the plaza complex itself knowing that $3 billion in church funds was used to construct it - how would that carry over? I don't know why things like this bother me, but it sure looks bad and probably comes across to others as the church being obsessed with worldly image and opinion of itself. And what really bugs me the most is when I hear a church official publicly state that no church tithes were used to build the complex when in fact, the monies used for the investment funds that supposedly generated the $3 billion to construct it originated from tithing donations. Are the Lord and our Savior up there encouraging our church officials to construct things like this while many members in Utah, the United States and other nations are unemployed, hungry, have no health insurance and/or rely on government assistance to survive?"

"I just hope someday we'll see the purpose and the righteous choice behind it. I agree, it looks bad... but who knows, we've been told we're in the storm. Maybe at some point the storm will become so raging that this construction becomes a place of gathering and safety. But of course, that's just speculation. I can see why it bugs you."

"Is this really what the Lord inspired the prophets to do with the monies of the church? When the Lord told the young man to go and sell all you have and give it to the poor and come follow me, did he tell some one else go and take all the interest earned and build a shopping mall and skyscrapers for wealthy people? If you spent $50 million on a temple you could build 80 of them. Since 1985 the Church has given about $1.2 billion in humanitarian aid and $4 billion to a shopping mall. It makes no sense to me. I love the Brethren, I sincerely do, and I trust them but I do not understand this. This is again the one thing I can't figure out. Was down town SLC really so bad that a $4 billion investment was needed? I just trust that it is for the best and the church won't be held accountable for grinding on the faces of the poor or encouraging the material objectification of false gods. The one good thought is that they basically built a city in a short amount of time. Maybe this will come to some good practice to build the New Jerusalem. I just hope we will be allowed to build it."

"The only problem I have with the condos is that I am uneasy with the symbolism of selling luxury condos that were explicitly designed to be above and looking down upon the temple. And those units sold first. It bugs me enough, but I don't know if I have any justification to be bothered."

"The same kind of attention and controversy was given to the construction of the new conference center. I remember it well. People called it a great and spacious building, too. After touring it once or twice, including the amazing roof top, and attending conference once, as well as participating in the men's choir, I can't disagree. It's all perspective. People see what they want to see, but seldom have insight to what happens behind the scenes."

"I believe that the City Creek Complex was of divine inspiration and at some point we'll see the wisdom in the building of it. I do believe it will provide some "protection" of the temple and the Saints at some future time."

"The problem I have with this whole thing is -Who cares if no tithing money was used, that it only came from for-profit investments. We are the Lord's church, not a for-profit business! Any extra money we have, reguardless of where it came from, should be used to bless the poor and needy and to spread the gospel to the world. It is pathetic that we have ONLY spent $1.2 billion in the last almost 30 years on humanitian aid and have just dropped $4 billion in the last 5years on a high end shopping mall and living space! The last time I read the parable of the talents all the returns realized on the money were the Lord's. I'm wondering when the returns on the Lord's tithing became investment money to be used on all kinds of money making projects, instead of going to the poor and needy. Makes me think of what Moroni said about us after the Lord showed us to him."

"From my perspective, the important thing is not what the church does with its money, but rather what we do because of it. If it only takes $3 billion for the Lord to divide the wheat from the tares, then that is money well spent in my book. I have a feeling that as time goes on there will be more and more policies and decisions come down from Salt Lake that will try our faith. This trial can only truly take place when reason is not a possible crutch to lean on. Then it will come down to whether or not we believe that the Lord leads us through his servants or not. And he said unto me: Knowest though the reason they built the mall? And I said unto him: I know that they are the Lord's chosen servants, nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things."

"It really is difficult for me to understand the constant "questioning" here by some on the forum. You know, you can "thinK' anything you want, but you don't need to voice your thoughts about everything on the internet. Those concerns need to be taken to the Lord in prayer...and when I say that, I don't mean asking the Lord if the brethren are right...pleading with the Lord to be on the same page with them."

"I have no idea what the purpose of the complex is.....but it could be as simple as the Lord desiring to test who will murmur and who won't. In the past the Lord has tested his followers by asking them to suffer bondage, wander the wilderness, cross plains, and march on a dead end military expedition (Zion's camp). If a shopping mall is the toughest test I have to pass then I will consider myself lucky."

"I am just wondering when the late night cleaning asignments will come. Just like all the other church owned buildings in the downtown area, that we clean. That's a lot more work for those of us in the salt lake area."

"Let's go back to 1999 for a moment...What did the tornado hit or damage during its brief existence?
1. The outdoor retailers summer market (many men in the church make the outdoors a second religion and hunt for sport)
2. Gay bars (no explanation needed there)
3. The Delta Center (many Saints also make basketball a religion and have been known to attend playoff games on Sunday)
4. Hotels (many Hotels in Salt Lake offer porn)
5. Restaurants (fine dining)
6. State government offices (no explanation needed there)
7. The new LDS conference center (was undergoing construction at the time - some consider it to be a 'great and spacious building')
8. The Avenues (ritzy part of Salt Lake where the rich live, including many GA's)
Of those 8, what does the new City Creek Center offer? Retail shopping, alcohol, expensive lodging, fancy eateries, a highly expensive complex constructed by the church (just like the conference center was) and you could say it's also 'ritzy'. Quite interesting. Was this tornado just a freak, random act of nature... or something more? I think that answer is obvious."

This one is a doozy:

"Here's how I see it - One of the for-profit corps of the church spent a lot of money buying up land around the Temple and church headquarters and built some well constructed buildings to go there which they then leased out to a partner who then subleases to stores. The church then collects rent on those buildings to help recoup it's investment while the church waits for all hell to break loose. Once that happens and all the stores close (which they will!!) the church is left with a huge property it can use for it's own purposes which in the millennium would consist of redeeming the dead etc. I think it's genius and shows the foresight of our leaders regarding future events and just how near those events are. But that's my opinion! I don't see it as a shopping mall for long."

gotta say: I like the comments.

The biggest problem with a high-end shopping mall is that it is very materialistic. I don't remember Jesus Christ being materialistic, but hey, that's just me. I'm sure the lds leadership know Jesus better, after all, his name appears is in big letters in the church's official name. I guess the wealthy in SLC, UT need a place to shop and live. I wonder how many of those condos where bought by out-of-state people for investment purposes? It will be interesting to see what the place is like in a year. Just curious, how many locally own shops are there in the mall?

My family lives in Chicago, IL and I'm visiting them in a month. I grew up in a suburb. I now live in NM and was a convert to the church. I asked the question, what else could the church have built? May I put forth something like Millennium Park.

http://explorechicago.org/city/en/millennium.html

I don't know what the park cost, and maybe SLC already has something similar. The park is downtown along Michigan, Ave. near the Art Institute. You can pack a picnic lunch and for the price of mass transit, it's a place the whole family can enjoy. Personally, I found it to be a peaceful place in the middle of a bustling city. I loved the Bean and wished I could have been a 7 year-old playing in the fountains on a hot summer day.

Since people on this board are from all over the US and other parts of the world, any other suggestions?

http://explorechicago.org/city/en/millennium/about.html

This link has a picture of the fountains. The faces that appear are of real people and the people purse their lips and a jet of water shoots out.

If the REAL **R*E*A*L** reason City Creek was built was to protect the environs of temple square, they could have demolished the previous structures, saved the buildings they saved, built an underground parking garage in the hole and put a beautiful park on the surface. It would have looked great, been exactly what they needed and cost a helluva lot less than this. They could have put some art galleries around the perimeter and used the open space for the super large pieces.

But the mormon church does everthing for image sake.

They are building some of their temples in France, Italy and Philly. Those buildings could be a fourth of their size and STILL be empty most of the time. No need for big, showy temples, but they build those things to secure future income.

It's also to give the goons who work at the COB incl. church hierarchy a convenient, nice place to eat and shop. It's not about providing something nice for the members. They don't believe in doing that anyway, because nice parks may attract (gasp) gays and lesbians and other unwanted persons, in addition to children and families etc..

The Jesus Mall will give some people new jobs... but minimum wage retail doesn't pay a helluva lot!

important fact that most of its members don't - Jesus Christ was a hoax.

I think the biggest problem is the comparison between how much cash (the Church paid its way on City Creek in cash not loans or credit) has been pumped into City Creek and how much the Church has spent on Humanitarian aid - which is zero.

Note: I say zero on Humanitarian aid becuase the Church funds spent in this area ($88 million in 2010) come from additional member donations over and above tithing.

are anything else that might attract the unwashed poor.

I lived in the Philippines for a couple years as a child. I remember having to go off-base to attend church...there wasn't any electricity, yet the podium had a microphone. And a brand new vacuum sat in the closet...all the church buildings worldwide were built the same and used the same vacuum, I guess.

These people were beyond poor. Everytime a typhoon blew through, many families lost their nipa hut homes. Children starved, there weren't any doctors, and no access to clean water or an education.

When I think about them, I wonder how things are today. The military closed the base we were stationed at, so now there's no one to hire maids, nannies, or yard workers.

And then I read about this mall. With it's fancy fire fountain and it's diverted creek full of trout.

My heart breaks.

Some dangerous beliefs there:

"If it only takes $3 billion for the Lord to divide the wheat from the tares, then that is money well spent in my book. I have a feeling that as time goes on there will be more and more policies and decisions come down from Salt Lake that will try our faith. This trial can only truly take place when reason is not a possible crutch to lean on. Then it will come down to whether or not we believe that the Lord leads us through his servants or not."

"I have no idea what the purpose of the complex is.....but it could be as simple as the Lord desiring to test who will murmur and who won't. In the past the Lord has tested his followers by asking them to suffer bondage, wander the wilderness, cross plains, and march on a dead end military expedition (Zion's camp)." (He didn't mention polygamy, notice.)

These kind of people are capable of anything.

something like: "this is not a round peg. This is a square peg, but there are portions that I can't see right now. It might look like a round peg, but I know that it is actually perfectly square. Not just a square peg, but a perfect one."

Hurts the noggin.

At the very least, they're very tone-deaf to society. The worst of the bunch certainly are capable of anything. I've been away from the hallway conversations and the like to have forgotten how truly bat-sh!t crazy some of these people are.

xMo quoted:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "If it only takes $3 billion for the Lord to
> divide the wheat from the tares, then that is
> money well spent in my book. I have a feeling that
> as time goes on there will be more and more
> policies and decisions come down from Salt Lake
> that will try our faith. This trial can only truly
> take place when reason is not a possible crutch to
> lean on. Then it will come down to whether or not
> we believe that the Lord leads us through his
> servants or not."
>
> "I have no idea what the purpose of the complex
> is.....but it could be as simple as the Lord
> desiring to test who will murmur and who won't. In
> the past the Lord has tested his followers by
> asking them to suffer bondage, wander the
> wilderness, cross plains, and march on a dead end
> military expedition (Zion's camp)." (He didn't
> mention polygamy, notice.)

The only way this could remotely be a test from God is if he is testing who will follow the Savior's teachings and who worships the church. Who will remember the Savior was furious as he chased the moneychangers away from the temple and taught his followers to feed his sheep and care for the poor and needy. If you are a Christian, you'll see this as a big wake-up call as to who knows the Jesus of the Bible (and even the Book of Mormon) and who is worshiping their membership in the church.

PS: Thanks for posting these comments from the article because they are just crazy.

those two comments made me shudder as well. I was thinking...wow I would hate it if I worked with this person or just somehow had to be around them. The way they look at the world is opposite of my outlook. I disagree with all of their creepy statements.

Jospeh Smith didn't realize he was criticizing his own church when he wrote the BoM...

2 Nephi 28:13
They rob the bpoor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

1 Nephi 13:
4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

Mormon 8:
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

I walked through it this weekend.

It epitomized what I dislike about the church and corporate entertainment/marketing.

It was a completely manufactured experience--also something I dislike about Disney and the Church sites. The street performers all wore the same uniform. A designers idea about an idealized stream. High end but mainstream.

It was all chains. Nothing unique or special to the whole place. Why do I want to shop at chains in person? More and more, i shop on-line for specialty products that do the job better, often at a lower price. Or in-person at specialized shops.

But not for chain store products. And so much clothing. Is there no other reason to shop? It's probably the least interesting thing I ever shop for.

Security was everywhere. SLC cops at every entrance to the site. Taubmann rent-a-cops everywhere else. What are they afraid of?

It was sterile. It was dead but crowded. I've shopped New York San Francisco, London, Paris, Firenza, Munich and many other great pedestrian zones. They grew organically. They don't share the same look throughout. It's not all controlled and messaged. They feel alive and interesting. This did not.

SLC is not a location for high end shopping. It doesn't have the local population to support it. Taubmann foresees it as a destination point. No. There's no reason to come here for any of it. It can all be had elsewhere in more interesting places.

Further, they've killed downtown traffic. The 4 blocks of Temple Square, COB, and CC mall are now cut through with only one lane of traffic in each direction. Where are the broad avenues of 3 lanes in each direction? Much of the lanes are reserved for delivery and event vehicles. No parking. The center lanes were taken over for access to the parking warrens.

It's a complete discouragement to want to go downtown. There's nothing there.

I don't think much of the Gateway either. Clothes, more clothes, chains no original eateries and the same look throughout. I can't think of the last time I bought anything or ate anything at a mall location.

5 Billion down the drain.

The best thing I saw? The new Harmons. Different look, some actual parking even if you have to negotiate Social Hall Ave to park there. And they sell something important and useful.

You've described the slc equivalent of the forum shops in Vegas....spot on. Though its pretty unrealistic to expect this experience to rival those of the world-class cities you've mentioned. As much as president burton would suggest otherwise.

that's what they need next ... some casinos. ;)

over what was there before, and I have never seen downtown so busy. I saw that the Beerhive's business is up nearly 500 percent per day since City Creek opened. Everybody bitches that there aren't any mom and pop stores and restaurants at City Creek, but, while this is true, the number of non-chain businesses that have moved in on Main between 100 South and 300 South in the past year or so is impressive. Storefronts on the 100 South block that were vacant for six years or more are now local businesses.

+1

The Harmons may be pretty great but I'm not to keen on shopping there since I found out that the Harmons employees are not allowed to park in that parking structure. This just pisses me off as there is very little parking downtown and what little there was is gone now because of city creek.

And City Creek has dramatically EXPANDED the amount of parking.

That's what you get when you try to construct Joseph Smith's church over top of Sidney Rigdon's scripture.

The great and spacious mall for Mormons to buy their haughty clothes and trinkets warned against in the bom.But Pres Monson will shop there so all is well. What ridiculous irony.

another post(er) suggested that they exclude ppl with tats, 'excessive' body jewelry, etc.

Did you (anyone) experience that? is it all 'White & Delightsome' people/appearance?