You are probably thinking, "Why does smeagol always come to the board before talking with TBMs?" Well, it turns out I have lots of conversations with TBMs but sometimes I come here. It has helped in the past so I'll try again.

I'm going to lunch with my Home Teacher today. He happens to be my biking buddy and we get along great. He is the Republican delegate and I'm the democratic delegate so we debate a lot and enjoy it. He has been very open to my criticisms while TBM about quoting from Glenn Beck at church and things like that. We've been friends for about 3 years.

Since I went public with my apostasy, I haven't heard from him at all. Then, just last night he stopped by for a HT moment. When he said, I'd like to say a prayer before leaving, my 5-yr old replied, "I don't like praying." He looked kind of nervous after that. We kept things jovial and he was cool.

Anyway, he acted out of character by inviting me to lunch today. He never did this before. For some reason, we just never did this. I'm happy to be totally open with him but for some reason, I have this fear that he is acting as a spy for the bishop or something. I was going to answer his question of "why did you stop going to church" with a reply of, "Because I found the church to be untrue."

Since we love debating, I assume he will try to challenge me.

Should I say goodbye to this friendship? Should I be totally open with him and tell him my feelings about Joseph Smith (which are not pretty)? Or should I tell him I don't want to talk about it? This is my very first TBM friend coming out party and I guess I could use some advice. Thank you!

Honesty is the best policy - but do not expect your friend to accept what you say. It seems a common belief that those who leave the church always do so b/c of sin. To state otherwise means you are trying to hide your sin. TBM's do not understand/grasp/want to face the reality of many departures.

I would just stick to facts...

1. Tironian Script VS. "Reformed Egyptian".
2. BoA papyrii being discovered, and they are NOT anywhere even at all remotely close to what the Pearl of Great Price says.
3. Encyclopedia of Mormonism talking about the Kinderhook plates.
4. Modern First vision being 40% Joseph and 60% editing and add ons after the fact to keep the narrative.
5. 11 first visions (some second hand sources, admittedly)
6. The unoriginal city names in the Book of Mormon vs. the Map at New York during the same time.
7. The changes of the Temple.. Removal of "Oath Of Vengeance" as well as "Masonic Execution"..
8. BoM edits / Racism / 1978 / Prop 8...

Good grief the list could go on and on and on...but these are just what come to mind in my kneejerk thinking.

wait, Tironian Script?

I better look this up. It's a little embarrassing that your number 1 is foreign to me... LOL.

If it is not a smoking gun, then I don't know what is. A lot of Mormonic stuff is pretty powerfully stupid or negatively convincing, but the fact that the "caracters" (sic) are proven to be mostly Tironian Notes is damn convincing to me, and stands by itself as a reason to quit the church. And even more convincing is the fact that the characters that are not Tironian Notes are found in other shorthand scripts such as tachygraphy and such. It turns out that SOMEone we all know and love must have had a book on the history of shorthand methods, at least long enough to write out the list of "caracters." I'm sure he thought that no one would ever be the wiser. Hell, why didn't he make up his own "script?" Then no one could have ever trace it to anything. I guess Smith wasn't as brilliant as we all hoped.

(Way back to my 1960s high school seminary days I had problems with the whole "Mr. Anthon" story, that he was a "learned" man, who presented JS with an affidavit of authenticity, saying simply, "These are true characters," or something. Then he asked, "Hey, whereja get them characters, anyway?" Then JS says to him, he says, "Why, an angel appeared to me on a flaming pie, and gave me a book." Then Anthon asks for the affidavit back and tears it up. He says, "Bring me the book." "Can't," says JS, "Part of it is sealed." "Well," says Anthon, "cain't read no sealed book." Such a convenient story. Why, it even dovetailed with an obscure scripture about learned men not being able to read "sealed" books. The story is right up there with angels taking the plates back so that no one could actually see them, or Smith's buried treasures slipping farther into the earth so that he couldn't prove they were there, or saying the Lord told him not to re-write the 116 lost pages of the Book of Norman. God sure is accommodatin', ain't he?)

Has anyone translated the Tironian JS carators? Is it jibberish or did he say something like: Taking them all the way to the bank...

Did you know that the characters on the Kinderhoek plates are just Chinese characters from a tea box? The perpetrator of the fraud drew them sideways so they would not be immediately recognizable. Knucklehead Joseph began translating them and actually drawing text from them. The Mormon church doesn't want you thinking about that one, though.

When I encountered the assertion that the Anthon transcript characters were Tironian notes, I bought a German text on the subject and tried to work out a "translation" of the Anthon transcript characters. I found that many of them simply did not appear in any convincing form among the myriad shapes in my German text, and this makes me think that this explanation, while tantalizing, is incomplete at best.

Tyson

reporting to the bishop? What's he going to do?

My suggestion is to wind down talking about religion and focus more on your biking activities with him.

I agree. The very few TBM friends I still have I do not talk about the church AT ALL. Focus on what makes your friendship great out side of the church and it will be fine. Otherwise it's doomed.

I had to make clear boundaries with my TBM friends. I told them, hey, if you want to talk about the church that's totally fine but I'm going to be totally 100% honest with you about it. And I refuse to be a "project". If we're going to be friends then we're going to be friends and that's it. That shut them up quick. When they want to face the truth they know where to find me.

I've learned the hard way about talking religion and politics with TBMs. It's never turned out well.

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/24058/#426087


That is a deathknell thread...just a kick to the everliving groin of "Reformed Egyptian"..

If he is hell bent on reforming you, there isn't any future.

Personally, I don't know if I would debate the details with him. Religion is a lot more personal than even politics, and it will be really hard for him to see that you aren't condemning him.

Maybe you should keep it at the philosophical level with questions like 'do you even want to know if it is all untrue?' and discuss what the journey out is like instead of who slept with whom 200 years ago.

Go to lunch and have a good time.

because when you go to "untrue" it's a burning, it's your unrighteousness blocking confirmation of "true", its subjective and leads to a no-win argument

whereas

deceptive is the truth that even true-blue TBMs can see. I like Lord British's list of what's deceptive, and that's just for starters.

Good luck!

Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> because when you go to "untrue" it's a burning,
> it's your unrighteousness blocking confirmation of
> "true", its subjective and leads to a no-win
> argument
>
> whereas
>
> deceptive is the truth that even true-blue TBMs
> can see. I like Lord British's list of what's
> deceptive, and that's just for starters.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Anagrammy


Kind of new here...can you refresh us regarding Lord British's list?

Smokey,

See above post from him:

1. Tironian Script VS. "Reformed Egyptian".
2. BoA papyrii being discovered, and they are NOT anywhere even at all remotely close to what the Pearl of Great Price says.
3. Encyclopedia of Mormonism talking about the Kinderhook plates.
4. Modern First vision being 40% Joseph and 60% editing and add ons after the fact to keep the narrative.
5. 11 first visions (some second hand sources, admittedly)
6. The unoriginal city names in the Book of Mormon vs. the Map at New York during the same time.
7. The changes of the Temple.. Removal of "Oath Of Vengeance" as well as "Masonic Execution"..
8. BoM edits / Racism / 1978 / Prop 8...

DOH! Sorry for the brainfart.

Only in Mormonland do people bring it up casually, like it's everybody's business.

Seriously. Mormons are socially retarded.

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Only in Mormonland do people bring it up casually,
> like it's everybody's business.

It's part of Mormon culture to be involved in other Mormon's lives. It's like living in a small town. Everyone knows everyone else's business especially as it related to Mormonism.
It's unique to many generational, traditional religious sects everywhere.

He might be thinking the church is a fraud. He might be looking for your point of view.

Diplomacy is a lost art.

whenever I was honest about my feelings with the church it seemed to complicate matters worse. I would get more missionaries out more often and more invites to lunch and such. I believe that reports are given to the bishop who in turn will send out the troops. Keep a very low profile my rule is not to talk religion or politices with any church members because it just backfires. I feel that my home teacher and fisiting teachers were appointed friendships. the friendship ceased when i left the church not really a friend. I have many Christian friends who pray with me and invite me out to lunch just because they want to not because it was an appointment.

Your HT might be unsure of the ground rules or any number possible reasons he may feel the need to talk things over. If he is a good friend, he may even feel the need to apologize for bringing up prayer in your home. I doubt that one, but it could happen.

Go to lunch whit an open mind and see where it goes from their. Going to lunch expecting a debate may color your perceptions of anything he says and lead to a response that is defensive in nature.

Is his purpose to make you wrong for having left the church; or is he sincerely curious as to why you would take the drastic step of resigning? The former is more likely, but the latter is also possible.

Once you determine which, (or once you determine where he is on the continuum,) respond accordingly.

I just got back from lunch. We enjoyed each other's company and it was a nice time. I was reluctant to tell him my reasons for leaving but he really wanted to know what it was. He said, "So what started it?"

I said learning about Fanny Alger and the other wives of Joseph Smith. I told him I didn't stop believing after learning of this but it got me to where I needed to ask more questions.

He was still wondering what set me off - what made me not believe. I told him the Book of Abraham set me on the path of not believing. His body language and silence told me right away this topic was now closed and it was time to move on so I did.

He kept asking and talking about being offended (because he was recently offended by the YM Pres). I told him repeatedly I was not offended but I'm not quite sure that sunk in all the way.

He then asked, "So your issues are doctrinal/teachings based?" I said "yes, essentially."

I was amazed at how much he seemed to want me to have issues from being offended by someone. Then he asked if I believe in God because he wanted to go down the "believe in the fundamentals line." I could tell he was headed there. I said, "It's remotely plausible that God is there but I'm focusing on things that are real." He looked shocked and didn't say much more.

Anyway, we talked about going skiing in the near future and everything seems fine. He is fairly open to differing opinions but I think he will continue to wedge in his little "Church helps kids grow up" business.

I say if you feel comfortable openly talking about the church, then do it. Someone mentioned "debating" the church. I don't think you need to "debate" or "argue," you just need to share with him what you have learned and how YOU "FEEL" about what you have learned. Maybe you'll plant some seeds and at the very least, he'll know exactly where you are when it comes to your belief in Mormonism.

He's a HT too, so I'm sure he's reporting to the ward leaders about why you are inactive, but are you concerned about that?

and it's logical. You had the same logic yourself.

Since you KNEW the church is true, this levied the possible explanations for why someone quits.
It boils down to:
1. They sinned and it's their fault
2. Someone else sinned and it's someone elses fault

It is not on their menu that the church might not be true and that those who quit demonstrate the expected range of psychosocial compensations.

Say it's personal.

Take nothing seriously or personally. Laugh easily.
Clown around, make jokes and don't let him box you in. Make fun of living and of life.

Ask him how much pleasure he can stand and tell him you are still seeking your limits. Many Mormon's think life is really serious business and seek to see how much pain and misery they can endure. (This somehow ensures their place at the throne of Gawd)

I recommend that you have fun with this. Nothing is serious unless you start buying into the bull chips.

Life is great and is meant to be enjoyed on every level - remember - keep it light, humorous, and fun and you will have a great time at dinner with him. He may find that your abundant happiness annoys him. Tough! Not your problem.

Life is about having attitude even when others are pelting you with shit. Smile, Smile, Laugh..Life is good! You can't be pulled down unless you choose to buy into the crap. JMHO

If you don't tell him your true beliefs he will make something up.... don't allow that. You don't have to worry who he will tell if they are your true beliefs. I also like talking about how you FEEL since that is how they rope in converts. Tell him you want to live a life of goodness where you are not ordered to do this or that, pay this or that, wear this or that, etc. And tell him there are plenty of ways out of Mormonism to achieve that lifestyle. Good luck. Hope you can remain friends. But if he bails, he was never a good friend.

why you don't go to church anymore...
My view? Not much! :-)

I like your statement in your OP. Keep it polite, respectful and simple.Then change the subject. Interested in biking next Saturday?

An in depth discussion would be for another time. Not at lunch. I don't discuss religion at lunch! I like that statement also!:-)
Just be your cool self, and debate other subjects as usual.

I'd keep the relationship if at all possible. Why not? It's my view that religion is a private matter and not part of most relationships in the Real World!
It's naturally part of everyone's world when in the Mormon World.

I changed my mind about my religious beliefs and views. I can do that! Mostly, it's nobody else's business. On the whole, it's not an issue unless I make it one.

I've seen friendships ruined when a friend is ALSO a HT/VTer. This happened to a friend of mine. Her friend stopped returning her calls after she was assigned as her VT. She really regretted losing the friendship. I'd just tell your friend that you wanted to be friends independent of that calling/duty weirdness. Frame up the conversation as an affirmation of the friendship, and separating that friendship from church activity.

After I left the church, I had a good friend (in the same ward . . . where they apparently like to use friendships to get in the door) who turned the calling down to visit me and the told me about it. She wasn't going to let the calling to mess up our friendship. We're still friends.

Get the church out of your friendship.