Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 03:33PM

Being 'Born-Again' Linked to More Brain Atrophy: Study

" . . . Older adults who say they've had a life-changing religious experience are more likely to have a greater decrease in size of the hippocampus, the part of the brain critical to learning and memory, new research finds.

"According to the study, people who said they were a 'born-again' Protestant or Catholic, or conversely, those who had no religious affiliation, had more hippocampal shrinkage (or 'atrophy') compared to people who identified themselves as Protestants, but not born-again. . . .

"As people age, a certain amount of brain atrophy is expected. Shrinkage of the hippocampus is also associated with depression, dementia and Alzheimer's disease.

"In the study, researchers asked 268 people aged 58 to 84 about their religious affiliation, spiritual practices and life-changing religious experiences. Over the course of two to eight years, changes to the hippocampus were monitored using MRI scans.

"The researchers suggested that stress over holding religious beliefs that fall outside of the mainstream may help explain the findings.

"'One interpretation of our finding--that members of majority religious groups seem to have less atrophy compared with minority religious groups--is that when you feel your beliefs and values are somewhat at odds with those of society as a whole, it may contribute to long-term stress that could have implications for the brain,' Amy Owen, lead author of the study and a research associate at Duke University Medical Center, said in a Duke news release.

"The study authors also suggested that life-changing religious experiences could challenge a person's established religious beliefs, triggering stress.

"'Other studies have led us to think that whether a new experience you consider spiritual is interpreted as comforting or stressful may depend on whether or not it fits in with your existing religious beliefs and those of the people around you,' David Hayward, research associate at Duke University Medical Center, added. 'Especially for older adults, these unexpected new experiences may lead to doubts about long-held religious beliefs, or to disagreements with friends and family.'

"The researchers noted other factors related to hippocampal atrophy, such as age, depression or brain size, as well as other religious factors such as prayer or meditation, could not explain the study's findings. . . ."

(Mary Elizabeth Dallas, "Being 'Born-Again' Linked to More Brain Atrophy: Study," 20 March, 2012, sourced from Duke University news release of 19 May 2011, at: http://www.philly.com/philly/health/132456883.html#ixzz1pmUOMUq4)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 04:18PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 04:02PM

Great find. Thanks for that. I'm so used to hearing all of the party-line: "religion is good for you, live longer, better, stronger, faster." Nice to have some balance and a study to shove back when needed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 04:19PM

It's good to see a study like this. Please note the study showed "people who said they were a 'born-again' Protestant or Catholic, or conversely, *those who had no religious affiliation*, had more hippocampal shrinkage (or 'atrophy') compared to people who identified themselves as Protestants, but not born-again. . . ."

People who "had no religious affiliation" would include atheists. The issue isn't belief per se but stress at not be accepted socially or of having your world view wrenched. I would like to see a similar study done with atheists. I am betting atheists suffer a higher degree of stress due to being disliked in our culture.

This study is a good beginning to discriminate between what type of religion is beneficial and what religion is not. I would like to see it done among Mormons and ex-Mormons. I think we would see greater rates hippocampal shrinkage and more depression among both groups when compared with the mainstream.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 04:24PM

. . . into the myth of immortality.

It's the price we atheists arguably pay for not believing in the nonsense of religion.

That said, I'm not depressed about the cold, hard facts of terra firma. Just informed and living accordingly.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 04:48PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 04:34PM

Since it appears depression shortens life and born-agains and non-believers experience more depression, is the price for atheists that they are selected for extinction in the long run? In terms of "fitness" are atheists or believers more or less fit? :-)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: lostinutah ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 04:43PM

Richard Feynman, the Noble physicist, was a genius and was discovering new things until his death. He was an atheist and his video interviews always show him laughing and smiling. He was a beloved professor and inspired his students.

When confronted with his own death, he said he was fine with it and not a bit afraid. If you want to watch a really good Nova video of his life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn4_40hAAr0

No depression there.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Strykary ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 04:02PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 04:44PM

"The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 04:47PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Suckafoo ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 04:29PM

That's dreary. I don't want to just die. I want to enjoy this life and live on.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: March 21, 2012 11:12PM

I went to a presentation by some author that i can't remember now about sex and religion. His research showed that Unitarians have much higher sexual satisfaction than any other group including atheists. I'm thinking that is from having a group that is supportive whereas athiests don't tend to hang together that much. And btw, Mormons had one of the worst sexual satisfactions of any religion. Surprise, Surprise. JW's & SDA were pretty bad too.

Personally, I'm still not comfortable with any religion but it is interesting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: March 22, 2012 12:46AM

Or, people with small brains, or who are prone to having a shrinking brain, are more attracted to religion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 04:48PM

People who are stressed and depressed (and as a result have decreased brains) are attracted to certain kinds of religion (those which offer certainty and a lot of structure).

By the way, that brain shrinkage can be stopped and, to a point, reversed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dufreyne ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 01:24PM

I find the title to Mr. Benson's post curious.

When you read the title of this post- "Scientific Evidence on the Dangers of Wacky Religion: "Born Againers Show Stress Related Signs of Losing Their Minds..." you would think that this study shows just that. Mr. Benson has declared his pre-conceived bias in a fashion that is difficult to swallow.

This study evaluated 3 main groups of individuals: 1. Uber-religious, 2. Mainstream religious, and 3. Non-believers. Of these three groups, one group had the least 'hippocampal shrinkage'. From the title of this post, you would conclude that the uber-religious group had the most hippocampal shrinkage. Unfortunately, this only tells part of the picture. Mr. Benson went out of his way to paint this type of picture in his title. Turns out, however, that the 'no religious affiliation' group had an equal (and some may argue more) hippocampal shrinkage as the hyper-religious group. The only reasonable conclusion one can draw from this is that mainstream religion (without extremes) has a 'hippocampal protective effect'.

I do, however, give Mr. Benson credit for later referencing the hippocampal shrinkage in those without religious affiliation. However, it comes after the title has sunk in and, in my opinion, is a bit late.

So the more accurate title of this post would be "Mainstream Religious Affiliation and Belief May Have A Cerebro-Protective Effect". This post is, in some fashion, educational. It does demonstrate in clear terms how personal, pre-conceived biases come into play and influence what aspects of science are promoted and which ones are minimized.

Curious...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 02:59PM

Now, now, get hold of yourself. You really shouldn't fret so much, given that the subject line mirrored the lead sentence of the linked report (albeit in a jocular sort of way).

And grow a humor gene, for gawd's sake. It's clear you find this stuff scary and threatening to your belief system (as has been demonstrated by your previous grumpy reaction to my assertion that there is no such thing as immortal ghosts), but please try harder to hide your fear. You come across as defensive and insecure.



Edited 16 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 03:22PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 03:41PM

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the original study, so I don't know if the study revealed the background of the born-again group. Did they grow up in their faith or were they converts? If they were converts, what was their background? Were they already suffering depression or stress prior to their conversion and did conversion alleviate their problems or exacerbate them, assuming the had them.

Ancedotely, a former coworker mentioned to me when he was working in a mental health agency in Marin Co. that he saw a disproportionate number of converts to Mormonism with problems and supposed their might be a link between experiencing troubled lives and converting.

I recently downloaded several peer-reviewed articles from a database I have access to that may provide some insight into the issue of conversion, mental health, and personality but I haven't had time yet to read more than the abstracts. When I get time I will read them and report anything that might be helpful, assuming I remember to do it.

The issue is a lot more complicated than it appears at first and the research on the variables about who is affected how by what and under what condition is on-going.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Strykary ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 04:01PM

"The researchers suggested that stress over holding religious beliefs that fall outside of the mainstream may help explain the findings."

I don't think it's so much to do with religion. Being surrounded by people who think you're crazy is going to have adverse effects on a person.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dufreyne ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 04:05PM

"I present scientific evidence and you blame the messenger"--SB

I would you suggest you stop feeling sorry for yourself and climb down off your self imposed narcissism. It is obvious that your method of presentation is biased. I'm sure there are sycophants who enjoy your brand of propaganda. I am equally sure that there are many of us who would prefer a more reasoned, tolerant view of both spirituality and the afterlife. The manner in which you promote your opinion is both inaccurate (at certain times) and self-serving. Please spare us the predictable diatribe describing how 'religious' I am. You know nothing of me other than what I've written in defense of opposing viewpoints--something that clearly gets under your skin. Your description of me as "defensive and insecure" is hardly surmised from my posts. Rather, the act of you attempting to characterize me in this fashion paints a clearer picture of you (and your motivations) than anything else.

May I suggest you tone down the "anti-anything Steve Benson doesn't agrees with" rhetoric? You have made many strong and compelling arguments during your time here. You have also enlightened us about the inner workings of LDS, Inc. and shared poignant personal and family stories. I admire your efforts on these fronts. You clearly are both gifted and, at times, courageous. However, your ego has grown disproportionately large and, without self-restraint, threatens to undermine those previous achievements. Understand that although we have all walked away from mormonism, there are many paths away from this institution. The path you chose is quite common. Some of us chose a different direction--or initially chose your direction, then made a few adjustments. Although you are free to choose and declare your opinions, your singular hatred for all things religious or spiritual is, in my opinion, having a disenfranchising effect on other posters who may feel intimidated by your posts. And, although you have every right to post your opinion, my message to you is that we are all are free to post dissenting opinions--get used to it--because the time has come...and...don't blame the messenger :)

D

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 04:09PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 04:21PM

These prior pearls of wisdom from Dutiful Duf, our latest religiously-biased would-be board moderator:

“This brand of rhetoric is unhelpful to the discussion."

“Please be aware that harsh sarcasm is unhelpful as individuals struggle with this difficult topic. Perhaps you have good intentions. Perhaps you feel that this approach helps people shake out of their silly world view. I would hope that this is your reasoning...not the more likely scenario of simply belittling others as a function of your ego."

“Let's keep the discourse at a level that is helpful to both the writer and the reader. Your level of thought on this and other topics is above where your keyboard has recently wandered.”
_____


Gosh, sorry, teech. :)



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 04:37PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 05:14PM

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017006

Small sample size. One of Steve's favorite researchers, Harold G. Koenig, is one of the study's authors.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 06:46PM

Now, for some details.

--The study's results:

"Descriptive statistics for the study sample are presented in Table 1 (N = 268), including demographics, religious factors, covariates, and brain volumes.

"Table 2 presents longitudinal regression models of religious factors and covariates on change in left and right hippocampal volumes. Positive model coefficients indicate less atrophy over time.

"Reported life-changing religious experience at baseline was associated with greater atrophy between baseline and follow-up in the left and right hippocampus (left: b = −0.45, P<.001; right: b = −0.32, P = .012).

"Born-again Protestant group membership at baseline was associated with greater atrophy in the left and right hippocampus compared with non born-again Protestant group membership (left: b = −0.15, P = .046; right: b = −0.15, P = .050).

"Catholic group membership (n = 22) (b = −0.22, P = .046) and no religious group membership at baseline (n = 19) (b = −0.28, P = .046) were also associated with greater atrophy in the left hippocampus over time compared with non born-again Protestant group membership."
_____


The study's discussion of its results:

"The findings of this study indicate that certain religious factors may influence longitudinal change in hippocampal volume during late life. Greater hippocampal atrophy over time was predicted by baseline identification as born-again Protestants, Catholics, or no religious affiliation, compared with Protestants who were not born-again.

"Greater hippocampal atrophy was also predicted by reports at baseline of having had life-changing religious experiences. These longitudinal associations were not explained by baseline psychosocial or psychiatric factors (social support, stress, and depression status), demographic factors, duration in the study, or total baseline cerebral volume. Frequency of public and private religious activity did not predict changes in hippocampal volume.

"One way of interpreting these findings is within the context of the hypothesized impact of cumulative stress on the hippocampus. While some religious variables have been found to be associated with positive mental health . . . other religious factors may be a source of stress . . . . Research on biological pathways by which stress may influence hippocampal volumes has primarily explored neuronal death . . , decreased neurogenesis . . . , and dendritic retraction . . . .

"The glucocorticoid vulnerability hypothesis proposes that chronic stress alters the hippocampus by elevating levels of glucocorticoids, which in turn extends the time period during which the hippocampus is susceptible to damage from various sources . . . .

"The measure of stress used in this study was not correlated with changes in hippocampal volume, possibly due to the fact that it captured acute rather than cumulative stressors. Research indicates that relationships between stress and hippocampal volume likely operate at the level of cumulative rather than acute stress, leaving the cumulative stress framework a plausible interpretation of these results.

"Greater hippocampal atrophy was observed longitudinally in this study among born-again Protestants, Catholics, and those reporting no religious affiliation, compared with non born-again Protestants. These findings may reflect potential cumulative stress associated with being a member of a religious minority. Though religious factors have been associated with positive mental health . . . , studies have shown members of religious minority groups may also experience stressors related to these group affiliations . . . [.

"Greater hippocampal atrophy was also found to be longitudinally associated with reported life-changing religious experiences. Spiritual experiences not easily interpreted within an existing cognitive framework or set of religious beliefs have been shown in previous research to be detrimental to subjective well-being . . . . Such experiences have the capacity to produce doubts regarding previously unquestioned convictions, potentially inducing cumulative stress even if the experience was subjectively positive. If the experience prompts a change in religious groups, existing social networks may also be disrupted.

"Thus, as possible sources of cumulative stress, both minority religious group membership and life-changing religious experiences may contribute to conditions that are deleterious for hippocampal volume.

"These findings can be interpreted within the framework of previous studies identifying the hippocampus as a brain region potentially involved in religious or spiritual beliefs and practices. Using PET and MRI data, studies of meditation indicate that the hippocampus has been found to be activated during meditative states, compared to control states . . . . Structurally, among meditation practitioners (compared to non-practitioner controls), significantly larger volumes . . . , and higher gray matter concentrations . . . have been found in regions activated during meditation, including the right hippocampus.

"The current study did not find an association between change in hippocampal volume and frequency of spiritual activities, possibly reflecting the potential of varying spiritual practices to affect neuroanatomy differently.

"Research on temporal lobe epilepsy indicates that features of hyper-religiosity may be positively associated with hippocampal atrophy, but findings are mixed . . . . Associations found in the current study between life-changing religious experiences (but not frequency of religious practices) and hippocampal atrophy are consistent with a previous finding that the content and intensity of religious experiences (but not frequency of religious activities), differed between regular churchgoers and temporal-lobe epilepsy patients with hyper-religious features . . . , symptoms linked to hippocampal atrophy in some studies."
_____


--The study describes its sample size as being "relatively large," not small, and, in fact, notes that its size is a strength of the study:

"The relatively large sample size, longitudinal design, and the assessment of a range of religious and psychosocial factors are strengths of this study.

"Limitations include the geographically and religiously constrained nature of the sample (largely Southeastern Protestant Christians), as well as the small sample size of participants reporting a life-changing religious experience. The image acquisition used in this study is also limited to the technology available when it began in 1994, which was retained throughout the study in order to have comparable scans for longitudinal analyses. Future research on qualitative aspects of life-changing religious experiences could provide critical insight into the particular features of religion underlying the observed relationships with hippocampal volume.

"In addition, comprehensive cognitive testing in future studies could help determine the role of cognitive performance in both late life religious experiences and hippocampal volume."
_____


The study's implications:

"This study is among the first to examine religious and spiritual correlates of structural neuroanatomy, identifying several understudied factors associated with hippocampal atrophy. Religious factors, including religious group membership and life-changing religious experiences, but not frequency of public and private religious practices, were longitudinally associated with hippocampal atrophy.

"Atrophy in this region has important clinical implications, having been identified as a marker of late life mental health problems such as depression . . . and dementia . . . . These results may reflect an impact of cumulative stress on hippocampal volume. Mechanisms for these results, such as the elucidation of potential glucocorticoid stress pathways leading to atrophy, need to be more clearly identified, making the interpretation of these findings necessarily speculative. Future research exploring neuroanatomical changes in late life should not overlook the potential impact of religious factors, which remain relevant for a substantial proportion of the US population."
_____


Finally, Koenig's actual contributions to the study:

Koenig is not listed in the study's acknowledgments as having conceived or designed any of the study's experiments. (Cynthia Key of the Duke Neuropsychiatric Imaging Research Laboratory provided the hippocampal measurements).

Nor is Koenig listed as having performed the study's experiments or analyzed the study's data.

Nor is Koenig listed as having provided any reagents, materials or analysis tools for the study.

Koenig is listed, however (along with three others) as having written the study's manuscript.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017006



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 07:18PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 07:25PM

I was glad to find the study accounted for existing mental illness, which was a question I had. I am also interested in the inclusion of Catholics with born-agains and non-religious. Presumably neither Catholics nor non-believers experienced these life-changing religous events that are said to be the source of dislocation and stress resulting in the smaller hippocampus. There are born-again Catholics but that they aren't singled out and I suppose some nonbelievers were like us, believers who had life-changing experiences that dislocated them from their religion.

So, what is actually being measured in the study and what is the religionship to religion? My own guess is there is a "sweet spot" in regard to religion for most people. Religion that provides some structure, social support, and meaning without being overbearing, perfectionistic, and closed is generally beneficial, while religion that is too demanding and overbearing is a source of stress. Nonbelievers lack the benefits of social support religion often provides. But the inclusion of Catholics still seems strange, as American Catholics are generally more like the mainline Protestants in my view. But I may be wrong. Perhaps it is generational given the ages of the study participants and growning up Catholic when these folks did was much more stressful than growing up mainline Protestant.

Anyway, interesting.

By the way, anyone who publishes research know what the significance is of being the person chosen to write a study to which one did not otherwise contribute? I am curious what Steve pointed out about Koening. Not a big point, since I was teasing him anyway, but it made me curious.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 07:34PM

He helped write it but didn't research it.

That's what you get for "teasing." I respond by pointing out stuff about Koenig that you initially failed to mention--along with the fact that the researchers (contrary to your description of their work) considered their study sampling to be relatively large, not small. :)



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 07:49PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 08:11PM

Of course, not a problem, Steve. I know know there is always a risk when teasing you :-) Your comment just made me curious. I don't know what it means to write a study but not do the other things you pointed out, not having been involved in publishing research myself.

Of course you are right about your having mentioned the size of the study since it is there to see. I didn't miss that in your original post. Maybe it is a large study for the kind of study it is. I reconsidered after I read the study and realized how labor-intensive it is--much more than, say, a bunch of surveys. I'm still puzzling over the Catholic participants.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 24, 2012 08:19PM

Own it when you've blown it. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 08:20PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **     **  **     **  **    **  **     **  ******** 
 **     **  ***   ***  **   **   **     **  **       
 **     **  **** ****  **  **    **     **  **       
 *********  ** *** **  *****     **     **  ******   
 **     **  **     **  **  **    **     **  **       
 **     **  **     **  **   **   **     **  **       
 **     **  **     **  **    **   *******   **