In another thread, RfM poster "atheist&happy:-)" asserted that Joseph Smith "attempted to seduce 12-year-old Mary Elizabeth Rollins in 1831":

"Section 132, of the 'Doctrine and Covenants,' is the retroactive 'official' 1843 'revelation' by Joseph Smith for the practice of polygamy. It was officially 'given' to him ten years after he had secretly taken his first plural wife, Fannie Alger, about 17 years of age, in 1833 ('Origins of Power,' p. 619, D. Michael Quinn), and 12 years after he attempted to seduce 12 year old Mary Elizabeth Rollins in 1831 ('Emma Hale Smith,' p. 65). Joseph did later marry Mary Elizabeth, in February 1842 (after he had made two more attempted persuasions towards a secret marriage), while she was still the wife of Adam Lightner, thus making bigamy part of the Law of Polygamy."

"('Marriage of Joseph Smith and Emma Hale,' http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/josemma.htm)

"I believe he was a pedophile, con man, thief, adulterer, etc."

("He attempted to seduce 12 year old Mary Elizabeth Rollins in 1831," posted by "atheist&happy:-)," on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 17 March 2012, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,262342,446846#msg-446846)
_____


Indeed, below are the sordid details of Smith's pathological pursuit of Mary Elizabeth Rollins--an obsessive skirt chase that began when she was a 12-year-old girl and climaxed 11 years later when he finally captured her for his unholy harem.

--Smith Tells 12-Year-Old Mary Elizabeth that God Has Commanded Him in a Vision to Marry Her and that a Sword-Bearing Angel Threatened to Kill Him if She Didn't Obey (Sound Familiar?)--

Authors Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery report Smith's snag line as follows in "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith--Prophet's Wife, 'Elect Lady,' Polygamy's Foe":

"Mary Elizabeth Rollins claimed that Joseph had a private conversation with her in 1831; she was 12 years old.

"She said Joseph 'told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife.' [letter from Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to Emeline B. Wells, summer 1905, LDS Archives]

"Although she did not become a plural wife of Joseph's until a number of years later, that early conversation planted a seed that Mary Elizabeth long rememered."
_____


--Failing on His First Try to Bed a 12-Year-Old Girl, Smith Goes for a 16-Year-Old One--

Newell and Avery write that "[w]ithin six months of Joseph's [1831] conversation with Mary Elizabeth Rollins, he and Emma had moved into the John Johnson home. Orson Pratt later quoted Lyman Johnson as saying that 'Joseph had made known to him as early as 1831 that plural marriage was a correct principle,' but remarked that 'the time had not yet come to teach and practice it.'

"Perhaps Joseph was not discreet in his discussions about plural marriage, because rumor and insinuation fed the fury of the mob that tarred and feathered him [in Hiram, Ohio, in March 1832]. When the Johnson boys joined the mob that entered their own home, they clear suspected an improper association between Joseph and their 16-year-old sister Nancy Marinda."
_____


--Predator Smith Continues Hot on Mary Elizabeth's Trail 'n Tail, Using Every Sick Trick in His Hat to Snatch Her (Even When She Eventually Had Married Another Man and Was Pregnant by Her Husband at the Time She Married Smith)--

Newell and Avery describe Smith's persistent polygamous pursuit of Mary Elizabeth--a sick quest that persisted over a decade:

"Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lighnter indicated that Joseph had first commented in 1831 that she would one day become his wife.

"Joseph approached her again in 1834 but, afraid of the unusual arrangement, she married Adam Lightner on August 11, 1835. Early in 1842, Joseph again reminded her that he had been commanded to take her as a wife. By this time, Mary Elizabeth said she had been dreaming for a number of years that she was his wife. She commented to Joseph, however, 'Well, don't you think it was an angel of the Devil that told you these things?'

"'No, it was an angel of God,' Joseph reassured her. 'The angel came to me three times between the year 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.' Mary Elizabeth said Joseph told her that the last time the angel had come with a drawn sword and threatened his life. 'Joseph said I was his before I came here and all the devils in hell should never get me from him.' This extraordinarily powerful psychological and theological argument placed her in a contest between good and evil.

"Joseph held out one final argument that carried much weight in the eyes of those people who intended to live their lives by the word of God in order to inherit His kingdom. He offered salvation to Mary Elizabeth if she would accept his proposal. 'All that [God] gives me I shall take with me for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me.'

"Mary Elizabeth said she would not be married to him until she too had a witness. 'If God told you that why does he not tell me?'

"'You shall have a witness,' Joseph promised. Then he asked Mary Elizabeth if she was going to be a 'traitor.'

"'I . . . shall never tell a mortal I had such a talk from a married man,' she replied.

"Mary Elizabeth, who had been in Emma [Smith's] home often and had taught painting to Julia [daughter of Joseph and Emma], was mindful of another complication. She asked if Emma knew about her. Joseph neatly sidestepped the issue with an incomplete answer, 'Emma thinks the world of you.'"

_____


--In an Effort to Seal the Steal, Smith Then Blames Mary Elizabeth for Offending an Angel of God--

Newell and Avery write:

"After making Joseph's proposal the subject of prayer, Mary Elizabeth said 'an angel' passed silently through her room and out the window one night. After telling Joseph of the experience, she asked him why, if it was 'an angel of light,' it did not speak to her.

"'You covered your face,' he told her, 'and for this reason the angel was insulted.'

"'Will it ever come again?'

"Joseph thought for a moment, the said, 'No. Not the same one, but if you are faithful you shall see greater things thatn that.'

"He then predicted three signs would take place in her family. 'Every word came true,' she wrote."
_____


--A Fellow Polygamist Predator Performs the Marriage--

"Brigham Young officiated at her marriage to Joseph. [" . . . Young [performed] the marriage between Joseph and Mary Elizabeth in the room over the red brick store [in Nauvoo] in February 1842. Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner's entire account is found in Mary Elizabeth Lighnter to Emmeline B. Wells, summer 1905; ''Remarks,' Mary Elizabeth Lightner, given at BYU, 14 April 1905, typescript, BYU; and 'The Life and Testimony of Mary E. Lightner,' 'Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine,' July 1926, pp. 1-44"]"
_____


--Mary Elizabeth Later Recounts that She Knew Smith Had Fathered Children Whose Biological Connection to Him Had Been Hidden Under Other Names--

Newell and Tippetts note how Mary Elizabeth was aware of children sired by Smith but raised under aliases:

"Persistent oral and family traditions insist that Joseph fathered children by at least four of his plural wives. Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner's comments illustrate the secrecy surrounding the birth of these children. As late as 1905 she commented, 'I knew he had three chidlren. They told me. I think two of them are living today but they are not known as his chidlren as they go by other names.'"

(Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith--Prophet's Wife, 'Elect Lady,' Polygamy's Foe," Chapter 4, "Seas of Tribulation: 1834-1838," Chapter 7, "A New Order of Marriage" (Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1984, pp. 65, 98-99, 100-01, 318fn3, 324fn23)
_____


--Trying to Put Lipstick on a Pedophilic Polygamous Pig--

Essentially backing the Newell/Avery account of events, Mormon historian Todd Compton, in his book, "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith," writes the following, while adding some bizarre details (but not mentioning that Smith had first approached 12-year-old Mary Elizabeth on becoming his plural wife back in 1831):

"By Mary's own account, she had had spiritual pre-sentiments that she would become Joseph Smith's wife: 'I had been dreaming for a number of years I was his wife. I thought I was a great sinner. I prayed to God to take it from me.' However, the prophetic dreams were fulfilled--Smith proposed to her in early February 1842 at the home of Newel and Elizabeth Whitney.

"In her later life she retold the story a number of times, which allows us to construct a fascinating, detailed composite account showing how Smith approached his prospective wives.

"First, after he introduced the idea of plural marriage to Mary, he told her that God had instructed him to marry her in 1834 but that he had been in Kirtland and she in Missouri. He said that he had been frightened of the idea at first but, he said, as Mary remembered it, 'The angel came to me three times between the year of '34 and '42 and said I was to obey that principle or he would lay [destroy] me.'

"Then he made an important statement: 'Joseph said I was his before I came here and he said all the devils in hell should never get me from him.'

"In her autobiography Mary wrote that Smith told her, 'I was created for him before the foundation of the Earth was laid.' So we have the doctrine of spirits matched in the pre-existence, a concept that give important insight into Smith's practicew of polyandry. It fits into the context of the broader 'spiritual wife' doctrine of the Burned-over District, in which spiritual affinities between a man and a woman took precedence over legal but non-sacred marriage. Perhaps the Mormon doctrine of the pre-existence derived in part from this influence.

"Smith also told Mary, 'I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie. All that he gives me I shall take with me, for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me.' In other words, Smith linked plural marriage with salvation, as he did in later marriages. If Mary accepted him as her husband, her place in heaven would be assured."

"She did not agree to the marriage at first--she was married to and presumably in love with another man, and was skeptical of Smith's doctrine. She asked why, if an angel came to him, it had not appeared to her? She asked pointedly, wasn't it possible that the angel was from the Devil? Smith assured her that it had come from God.

"She replied that she would never be sealed to him until she had a direct witness from God. He told her to pray earnestly, for the angel had told him that she whould have a witness.

"As the conversation ended, he asked her if she would turn traitor and speak of this to anyone. She replied, 'I shall never tell a mortal I had such a talk from a married man!'

"She was undestandably troubled by this proposal. Nevertheless, she prayed about it and discussed it with the only person Smith would allow her to confide in, Brigham Young. One day she knelt between three haystacks and, she wrote, 'If ever a poor mortal prayed, I did.' She even prayed with her hands upraised, following the pattern of Moses.

"A few nights after that she was in her bedroom where her mother and aunt slept also, when, she later recounted, '[A] Personage stood in front of the bed looking at me. Its clothes were whiter than anything I had ever seen. I could look at its Person but when I saw its face so bright and more beautiful than any earthly Being could be and those eyes piercing me through and through, I could not endure it; it seemed as if I must die with fear. I fell back in bed and covered my head.' As she hid under her covers, her aunt awoke and saw 'a figure in white robes pass from our bed to my mother's bed and pass out of the window.'

"Mary soon related this to Smith, who explained the sign to her and predicted events that would take place in her family. 'Every word came true. I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing and Heber C. Kimball the blessing.'

"This happened toward the end of February 1842 in the upper room of Smith's Red Brick store, the makeshift Masonic Hall. The marriage was 'for time and all eternity.'

"The prophet's sixth wife, approximately, Mary was 23 years old and pregnant with her third child by Adam Lightner durng the ceremony. He was out of town, 'far away' at the time, so probably did not know about it.

"Mary later commented on the polyandrous aspect of her marriage:

"'I could tell you why I stayed with Mr. Lightner. Things the leaders of the Church do not know anything about. I did just as Joseph told me to do, as he knew what troubles I would have to contend with.'

"So, Smith instructed her to stay with her husband. One obvious advantage to such a modus operandi was that it would preserve the secrecy of their polyandrous union.

"About a month after the marriage, on March 23, George Algernon was born to Mary in Nauvoo. Miles Henry was now six. Caroline one-and-a-half. On April 14, Mary was accepted into the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo and on June 9 she contributed $1.00 to it.

"Adam Lightner was back in Nauvoo by July 1, when he boutht a hat at the Joseph Smith store."

(Todd Compton, "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith," Chapter 8, "Miracle Tale: Mary Elizabeth Rollins (Lightner Smith Young)" [Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books,1997. pp. 211-213)
_____


No matter how hard pologists try to perfume it, Joseph Smith was one pedophilic, prevaricating, perverted puppy.



Edited 18 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2012 12:39PM by steve benson.

I wonder if Warren Jeffs (FBI's most wanted) had fewer underage girls than the "Prophet" Joseph Smith?

I wonder if Joseph Smith taught his underage wives about the "ordinance of heavenly comfort"?

If Smith were alive today he would be in prison. He was no better than any number of crazy modern prophets like Jim Jones.

Mormonaism started out like the People's Temple and ended up as a watered down version of it's former self like some bad boiled fish take-out stand...perhaps that's not a bad thing?

Be glad the morg isn't a crazy as it used to be.(!?)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 01:33AM by praydude.

I have never seen an angel with a sword in any angel pic I've ever seen. Doesn't it go against the angel image? But I certainly still understand how it would scare a brainwashed 12 year old.

Frustrated with his inability to hear God's voice, as MORmON *prophet* Gordon B.S. Hinckley tries to emulate MORmON founder PERVERT Joseph Smith's life and style on other issues..... and ends up receiving a personal revelation that
LDS polygamy is NOT so doctrinal after all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxpx0_NVX18

the real revelation that Joe smith had about the divinity of his polygamy/ ADULTERY/ PHILANDERING -having his ass shot off on June 27 1844

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQrgLz0tpVA


there is always a MORmON explanation for MORmON antics
this is official LDS BS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmhjgaB2Hi8

Joe never practiced polygamy, It was adultery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqG5skfZcrE

Mary Lightner's own words seem to suggest that Joseph Smith did not first approach her about becoming his wife until shortly before they were married in Feb. 1842.

In her 1905 letter to Emmeline B. Wells, Mary states that Joseph was first commanded to marry her in 1831 (Joseph first met Mary in Feb. 1831, when she was 12, nearly 13); however, her 1902 affidavit states she was "sealed" to Joseph in Spring 1831 (around the time she turned 13, having been born on April 9, 1818).

Curiously, her same 1902 affidavit states that in 1834 Joseph was "commanded" to take her as a wife (when she was either 15 or 16); why was this necessary if she had already been sealed to Joseph in 1831?

But, then, Mary says something that leads me to believe she was neither present nor aware of what happened in 1831 or 1834, because she states in her 1905 letter that Joseph did NOT reveal any of this to her personally until Feb. 1842 (when she was almost 24 and a marriage ceremony actually performed by Brigham Young).

These various dates are confusing, but I think they show that Joseph did not actively pursue Mary (in terms of her knowing about it) until 1842 (even if he was checking her out as early as 1831).

One final piece of trivia: Mary wrote the following in her journal after Joseph discussed polygamy with her in 1842: "I had been dreaming for a number of years I was his wife. I thought I was a great sinner. I prayed to God to take it from me for I felt it was a sin; but when Joseph sent for me he told me all of these things."

Gotta say this for Joseph -- he sure knew how to bewitch the young ladies.

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner is an ancestor of mine, so I am particularly interested. Due to the fact that she was pregnant at the time of her polygamous marriage, it seems safe to say that none of her children are Joseph's.
To Reader: you asked, "Curiously, her same 1902 affidavit states that in 1834 Joseph was "commanded" to take her as a wife (when she was either 15 or 16); why was this necessary if she had already been sealed to Joseph in 1831?"
I don't see any claim that Mary Elizabeth was sealed to Joseph in 1831, only that Joseph Smith had a private conversation with her and "He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife." [letter from Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner to Emeline B. Wells, summer 1905, LDS Archives]

"Although she did not become a plural wife of Joseph's until a number of years later, that early conversation planted a seed that Mary Elizabeth long remembered."
That makes more sense that she would be having dreams about becoming his wife, if that conversation had already occurred. It is obviously not out of character for Joseph Smith, as shown by the incident with Nancy Marinda six months later and all his subsequent plural marriages, including his eventual sealing to Mary Elizabeth herself. I don't see any reason to doubt that the conversation occurred. The 1834 conversation seems to have been Joseph's second attempt to convince Mary Elizabeth to be sealed to him, which she avoided again.
Reader, you say that Mary Elizabeth "states in her 1905 letter that Joseph did NOT reveal any of this to her personally until Feb. 1842." Do you have a link to that source? I'm curious as to what exactly she said, although I wouldn't be too surprised if she implicitly denied what Joseph said to her. She did say that she would "never tell a mortal I had such a talk from a married man," and she had every reason to keep it secret.

I remember from Mary Elizabeth's journal that after Joseph Smith's death, she believed that her sealing to him somehow transferred over to Brigham Young. Has anyone else seen any evidence that Joseph Smith's polygamous wives were simply passed on to Brigham Young, or any indication as to why she would think that?

Here is a link to where I read the letter (a transcript, not a photo of the original):

http://thefrees.com/history/node/42

Here is the entire text of the letter:

"Dear Sister Wells:

"I was very much surprised to receive a letter from you, after 15 years silence. But am very thankful to be remembered. I have felt, and do yet, that I am alone I feel as if I was not recognised by the Smith family.

"I have never had five minutes conversation with Joseph F. Smith in my life, I could tell him a great many things about his father that he does not know, about the early days of the church, and in Far West, but have never had the opportunity. I have received but very little council or advise since Joseph's death. I feel that I have been spiritually neglected.

"I was at your Relief Society conference in the afternoon last April, Sister's Stevenson and Pratt came and shook hands with me after meeting. I spoke to you and Sister Richards, who has been my staunch friend for years. Oh, how I have longed to have a good talk with you. How happy you must be up there all together among the noble women who are energetic in the work of God.

"As for Sister Whitney, Bishop Whitney's wife, I shall never forget her. It was at their house that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. That was in 1831. He was very much frightened, the angel appeared to him three times. It was in the early part of Feb. 1842 that he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him. I said I would not accept it until I had seen an immortal being myself. I could tell you about this, but cannot write any more in regard to this subject.

"I will enclose a description of the hymn book we have in the family. Think it is a Methodist hymn book. It has a great many of the songs that are in our L.D.S. book, among the hymns are - God Moves In a Mysterious Way, How Firm A Foundation, etc.

"I was baptized in the early part of 1830. Was sealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet by Brigham Young in a room over the old red brick store in Nauvoo. Received my first washings and annointings in Parley P. Pratts house in Nauvoo, by Sisters Whitney and Pratt, before the temple was built. Joseph wished to give me the endowments himself but was debarred the percentious(?) at that time. I received them the second time in the Nauvoo Temple by Brigham Young standing proxy, Heber C. Kimball doing the work. Brigham said at that time that I had more blessings sealed on my head than ever before given to a woman. Said my brother Henry was full of the Holy Ghost from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet.

"I never saw the Kirtland Temple. We left there by divine commandment in the fall of 1831 to go to Independence, Jackson Co., Missouri. Yes, all of my people were with the saints in Missouri. My health is precarious but am willing take care of the people when they want me to. Want to do all I can for the Kingdom of God.

"Yes I love to talk about the Prophet and the early days of the church. Will always remember how he looked, especially how he looked at that first sealing. He was tall and of commanding figure, full of life and when filled with the Holy Sprit his face was beautiful in expression. I have a picture of him done in water color. but it is faded some. Joseph F. Smith's smile is exactly like the Prophet Josephs was. Yes, I could tell you many things that I cannot write. I remember every word he ever said to me of importance, have seen his predictions verefied especially so in my own family. I have heard Sydney Rigdon preach when he was a Cambellite preacher, before he joined the church. Think I have answered all your questions now. You can use this as you see fit. Your sincere friend and well wished.

"S/ Mary E. Rollins Lightner."

I read this statement in her letter -- "It was in the early part of Feb. 1842 that he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him" -- to mean that Joseph did not tell Mary about plural marriage or the events in 1831 and 1834 UNTIL 1842 when "he was compelled to reveal it to [her]personally." I could be reading this wrong, but that's just how I read her words.

"As for Sister Whitney, Bishop Whitney's wife, I shall never forget her. It was at their house that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. That was in 1831."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 06:40PM by steve benson.

Reading the entire paragraph made me think that JS told Mary about the 1831 "vision" at Sis. Whitney's house in 1842 (when Joseph was "compelled to reveal it to [Mary] personally." At least that's how I read it.

Compton's book, "In Sacred Lonliness" at pp. 211-12, seems to agree with my interpretation of Mary's words that Joseph first told Mary in 1842 about polygamy and the prior "visions" and "commandments" that Joseph marry her.

It's true. The word "that" in "that was in 1831" could be referring either to Joseph's telling or God's commanding. The reference to Sister Whitney could refer to either time period, though it's noteworthy that Joseph married her daughter a few months after marrying Mary Lightner. Still, I would have expected the Whitneys to already be in on the secret if Joseph is being bold enough to make a proposition in their house. Of course I haven't looked through all the facts.

Compton discusses the 1831 "sealing" at pages 207-08 in his book, and he explains that Mary's use of the word "sealing" was in the context of family, not marriage.

Compton recounts Mary's description of her first meeting with Joseph in 1831, when Joseph held an impromptu meeting with the a few folks present, including Mary. Mary quotes Joseph as saying to Martin Harris (all capitalization hereafter is mine for emphasis): "Martin, the Spirit of God revealed that to thee. Yes, Brethren[,] our Savior has been in Your Midst, and talked with me face, to face -- and he has given me a Commandment to give unto you -- he has commanded me to SEAL you up unto Everlasting life, and HE HAS GIVEN YOU ALL TO ME, TO BE WITH ME, in his kingdom, even as he is in the Father's kingdom ...." (Compton, at 208).

In Mary's 1905 remarks to a BYU audience, the transcript is very similar in regards to the 1831 "sealing":

"He [Joseph] stood some moments. He looked over the congregation as if to pierce every heart. He said, 'Do you know who has been in your midst?' One of the Smiths said an angel of the Lord. Martin Harris said, 'It was our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.' Joseph put his hand down on Martin and said: 'God revealed that to you. Brethren and sisters, the Spirit of God has been here. The Savior has been in your midst this night and I want you to remember it. There is a veil over your eyes for you could not endure to look upon Him. You must be fed milk, not with strong meat. I want you to remember this as if it were the last thing that escaped my lips. HE HAS GIVEN ALL OF YOU TO ME AND HAS SEALED YOU UP TO EVERLASTING LIFE THAT WHERE HE IS, YOU MAY BE ALSO.'"

Here is a final statement by Mary Lightner that makes it clear (at least to me) that the 1831 "sealing" spoken of by Mary did NOT refer to plural marriage (at least in Mary's mind). This is contained in a letter to Wilford Woodruff dated October 7, 1877 (quoted and cited in the footnote for Section II on p. 687 in Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness"): "I was Sealed to Brother Joseph's family in the Spring of 1831."

I think these statements, when viewed together, reveal that JS did NOT bring up polygamy with Mary when she was just 12 or 13. Moreover, I'm pretty certain it didn't happen in 1834, either (the part about Joseph being commanded to marry her), because, as Mary said in her 1905 BYU address, at that time she "was one thousand miles away in Missouri, for we went up to Jackson County in [1831]."

All of this supports my reading of her statements that Joseph first told Mary about all this (the angel threatening him from 1834 to 1842 to marry her) in 1842, when, according to Mary's words in her 1905 letter to Emmeline B. Wells, Joseph "was compelled to reveal it to me [Mary] personally, by the Angel threatening him."

I'm not saying that Joseph didn't chase young girls (he surely did, such as Helen Mar Kimball), but it simply isn't accurate to state that Joseph pursued Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner with her knowledge from the time she was 12.

What Compton egregiously fails to do is to present Smith's 1831 come-on to 12-year-old Mary Elizabeth Rollins in its proper historical context--namely, as constituting a move by Smith on her to become one of his plural wives--in fact, his first one. (Bolstering that fact is the historical reality that in 1831 Smith was already talking about practicing polygamy).

Smith had a history of engaging in this kind of creepy behavior toward young girls/teenagers. Indeed, it was his modus operandi. His disgusting solicitation of Nancy Rigdon is proof of that.

Compton glosses over the fact that in 1831 Smith was warming up 12-year-old Mary Elizabeth to the prospect of becoming his child bride. She knew what was going on and, at least initially, did not take the bait.

It has taken two female Mormon historians, Newell and Avery, to set the record in order and in context. On this particular matter, I suggest you listen to them more and to Compton less.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 04:46PM by steve benson.

... not Compton's (he just provides the sources that I can then look up). Joseph's "sealing" statement in 1831 was given in an address to a congregation, not with Mary alone (and really was in response to Martin Harris) -- and Joseph said that ALL in the congregation (Mary included herself since she was part of the congregation) were "sealed" to him. It was not said in the context of marriage at all -- Mary made this clear when she (again in her OWN words, not Compton's) told Wilford Woodruff that in 1831 she was sealed up to Joseph's FAMILY (again, no context of marriage!). How could you possibly interpret Mary's words about the 1831 "sealing" (now that you know the context) to be a "come-on" to a 12-year old? It was nothing of the sort, based on Mary's own words.

And your claim that the "come-on" continued in 1834 with the command that Joseph marry Mary, also falls flat because Mary herself says they were a thousand miles apart at the time.

What Mary does say is that Joseph came to her in 1842 asking her to marry him (and giving her the story of an angel with a threatening sword, etc.). She was 23 or 24 years old at the time, married and pregnant -- hardly a "child bride" (your words).

I'm not saying that Joseph's approaching her for marriage in 1842 wasn't despicable -- it was, but it was a far cry from the pedophilia you are alleging (and I'm not saying that pedophilia did not occur with other child brides, like Helen Mar Kimball -- just not with Mary).

If you want the truth, just go to Mary's words.

You need to keep this in larger historical perspective.

Orson Pratt indicated that Smith confided, in 1831, to a handful of early Mormons that polygamy was the will of God but that it wasn't yet time to implement it. Lyman Johnson confirmed the same thing--i.e., that he had heard Smith endorse polygamy as as godly doctrine in, yes, 1831.

Smith was involved in what was essentially a protracted, obsessed and manipulative courtship of 12-year-old Mary Elizabeth Rollins--one which commenced (not coincidentally) in 1831--and ended when he multi-wife married her in 1842, at a time when she was the spouse of another man and carrying her first husband's child. (It is also hardly a coincidence that within a few months of first approaching Mary Elizabeth to marry him he was engaged in sexual improprieties with 16-year-old Nancy Marinda Johnson, which got him tarred and feathered).

Don't be like Compton in trying to apply lipstick to this pig.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 05:14PM by steve benson.

I realize that Joseph was already thinking about polygamy in 1831, but the evidence does NOT support your assertion that he had approached 12-year old Mary about it at that time. By 1834 he was clearly thinking of Mary as a wife because he had been expressly ordered to marry her (and would be threatened by an angel 3 times during the coming years to marry her). My only point is that it was NOT until 1842, when Mary was 23 or 24 years old, that Joseph first told her about all this and asked her to marry him. This is my ONLY point! Even if Joseph was having perverted thoughts about 12-year old Mary starting in 1831, he did not actively pursue her until 11 years later. These conclusions are based on her OWN words (not Compton's or other historian's), and her OWN writings. There is simply no evidence that, prior to 1842, Joseph ever approached Mary about marrying him.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 06:38PM by steve benson.

. . . especially given the larger historical framework of Smith's certified predatory sexual behavior toward young females.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 04:28PM by steve benson.

... Mary's own words: "It was in the early part of Feb. 1842 that he [i.e., Joseph] was compelled TO REVEAL IT TO ME PERSONALLY, by the Angel threatening him." (capitalization mine for emphasis). At no time prior to Feb. 1842 does Mary state or write that Joseph talked to her about polygamy; you (and Newell & Avery) are simply assuming that's the case, but Mary's own words say the opposite. And I know of no historian (other than Newell & Avery) who claims that Joseph approached Mary in 1831 (when she was 12 or 13) or 1834 (when she was 15 or 16) about polygamy and proposing to her. There simply is not evidence of this; rather, according to Mary, Joseph first approached her in 1842, when she was 23 or 24.

I'm on your side, Reader.

Joseph: "Mary, the Lord has commanded me to marry you. Whatever God commands is right, even if we don't understand it, and there can be no sin."

Mary: "Oh Joseph, I DO understand it! I've been dreaming about marrying you ever since I first saw you in 1831. Your eyes were so blue and penetrating."

Joseph: "I remember that. The Lord told me then that you would become my first plural wife. I didn't know what he meant at the time, but I do now."

Mary: "I always figured my thoughts were sinful. In 1834 I had a dream that we performed the marriage act. I now know that it was, in fact, revelation."

Joseph: "That must have been the same day that God gave me revelation too, appearing to me and commanding me to marry you. The time has finally come that we can obey his command."

Mary: "My husband won't understand, especially since I am carrying his child. But I do know how to be a good wife, I can assure you of that, and there won't be any public consequences if we act quickly. Let the Lord be praised."

Joseph: "Let's go get Brigham and take care of it right now."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 06:24PM by steve benson.

Mary Elizabeth said that in 1831 Smith told her God had commanded him to take her as his plural wife.

What followed were unfolding chapters over ensuing years where Smith kept up the pressure to snag her, using every trick in the book to plant his hook.

This was Smith's established, undeniable modus operandi when it came to his perverted come-ons to young women.

I am amazed that you guys want to cut him a break.

FAIR would be proud.
_____


And please keep in mind that when Newell and Avery released their book, the Mormon church throttled them with a gag order, not allowing them to present firesides on their findings. I'd say that's a pretty damn good sign those two women were on to something.

I'd say you might want to re-evaluate who you hang out with. :)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 06:09PM by steve benson.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 06:47PM by steve benson.

In 1831 Smith told Mary Elizabeth that God had commanded him to take her as his first plural wife.

He focused on that attempt with proposals and entreaties spanning several years in which he used various gimmicks and pressure tactics to suck her in, all of which eventually led to Smith nabbing her, even though she was by that time the impregnated wife of another man.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 02:26PM by steve benson.

Mary Elizabeth didn't go for it at the time and a few months later Smith was sexually stalking 16-year-old Nancy Marinda Johnson, which got him tarred and feathered.

OK, let's try this again.

"As for Sister Whitney, Bishop Whitney's wife, I shall never forget her. It was at their house that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. That was in 1831."

Well, if you stop there, the case for Joseph approaching Mary Elizabeth in 1831 sounds pretty convincing. But try putting the pause in a different place:

"As for Sister Whitney, Bishop Whitney's wife, I shall never forget her. It was at their house that the Prophet Joseph first told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. That was in 1831. He was very much frightened, the angel appeared to him three times.

"It was in the early part of Feb. 1842 that he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him."

Sounds very different, doesn't it?

The bottom line is, she doesn't specifically say her told her in 1831, she only says "that happened in 1831." Determing what "that" refers to is the issue. She does, however, say he told her in 1842. The fact that he was compelled to tell her in 1842 suggests (to me, anyway) that he had not told her in 1831. We don't have to agree, but can't we at least acknowledge that the other interpretation is possible?

"Mary Rollins first met Joseph Smith in early 1831. She and her family were new converts and Joseph Smith had just arrived in Kirtland from New York state. 12-year-old Mary remembers, 'When he saw me, he looked at me so earnestly, I felt almost afraid [and I thought, ‘He can read my every thought,’ and I thought how blue his eyes were]. After a moment, or too he came and put his hands on my head and gave me a great blessing (the first I ever received).'

"Joseph also [at this time in 1831] prepared Mary for their eventually marriage: '[He] told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife.' In the fall of that year [1831], Mary and her family left Kirtland for 'Zion,' which was being established in Missouri.

"Three years later, Mary and Joseph would be reunited when Joseph led the Zion’s Camp expedition from Ohio to Missouri. Mary remembers, 'In 1834 he was commanded to take me for a Wife, I was a thousand miles from him, he got afraid.' At the close of Zion’s Camp, Joseph returned to Kirtland. Mary stayed in Missouri, living in Liberty and Far West. Perhaps thinking her marriage to Joseph was off, she married Adam Lightner in 1835. By 1840 they had settled in Nauvoo, and were raising two children.

"Early in 1842, Joseph approached Mary about becoming his wife. According to Mary, Joseph said, 'The angel came to me three times between the year of ’34 and ’42 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.' Furthermore, Joseph told her, 'I was his before I came here and he said all the Devils in hell should never get me from him . . .' and 'I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie. All that he gives me I shall take with me for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me.'

"Initially, Mary did not accept Joseph’s proposal. She wanted a witness from God. Mary recalls, 'If ever a poor mortal prayed I did.' By February 1842 Joseph had convinced her it was a correct principle and she, 'went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing . . . for time, and all Eternity.” Mary said her husband Adam was 'far away' out of town at the time of her marriage to Joseph.

"Mary continued to live with her first husband, Adam. Of this arrangement, she later wrote, 'I could tell you why I stayed with Mr. Lightner. Things the [current] leaders of the Church does not know anything about. I did just as Joseph told me to do . . .'

"After Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, Mary and her first husband Adam continued to live in Nauvoo and the Midwest. In 1863 they moved to Utah. In her elderly years, Mary wrote to an acquaintance, . '. . . I Love to talk about the Prophet and the Early days of the Church [I] will always remember how Joseph looked . . . at that first sealing . . .he was tall and of a commanding figure, full of Life . . . Yes; I could tell you many things that I cannot write – I remember every word he . . . ever said to me of importance . . .'"

("Mary Rollins Lightner," on "Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith," at: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/09-MaryRollinsLightner.htm)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 06:48PM by steve benson.