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Posted by: grubbygert ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:14AM

http://voices.yahoo.com/mitt-romneys-mormon-secrets-11070962.html?cat=75#comments


c'mon guys... add your support for the accuracy of this article - it'd be a shame if the Mormons actually get it taken down...


some exerpts:

"I am deeply disturbed seeing the temple ritual advertised openly. This post is abusive, harassing and defamitory. The ceremony is the property of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as such is protected by law."

" I didn't read much of the article, because speaking inappropriately of our temples mocks Jesus Christ and His atonement, and why read that. I will try to contact advertisers and let them know what Yahoo is doing."

"PLEASE FLAG THIS ARTICLE!!!! It vioates Yahoo's policies. The article violates Yahoo terms of use"

and so on...

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Posted by: deco ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:18AM

Make Intellectual Reserve sue them.

Put the ball in their corner while they are trying to promote that they are not a secretive cult.

They probably need to accept the fact that as Romney gets closer to the nomination, this is only a preview of coming attractions.

On a very serious note, I hope that Mr Packham is taking his personal security seriously. Mormonism has more than their fair share of whackjobs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 02:20AM by deco.

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Posted by: ExmoDad ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 11:28AM

He talked about some of the tokens etc. ripped off from Masonry ....

but didn't talk about things like the "Order of Prayer" chanting, the naked touching (and reasons why it has been removed) and didn't describe the temple clothing to give people an idea that they truly dress up and do weird stuff.

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Posted by: Carol Y. ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:22AM


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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 03:00AM


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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 03:27AM

>Some people think it's disrespectful when you use their dead for your purposes but that doesn't stop you guys, does it?

Bravo!

I let my Yahoo account expire years ago, but if they succeed in getting Richard's post removed, I can promise other media blogsites will have that story...

That said, Lawrence O'Donnell just put up a link to how Mormons in Polynesia were aiding the Romney campaign. I linked Simon Southerton's blogsite on that subject, and so far LDS don't try to mix it up on stuff like that...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 12:51PM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 03:43AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 03:44AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: dk ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 03:49AM

I've posted several comments and also made the temple, dead-dunking argument. I also likened the temple ceremonies to buying a product, getting it home and finding out 'batteries are not included'.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 04:02AM

My name is Steve Benson. My grandfather was Ezra Taft Benson, 13th president of the Mormon Church. I voluntarily left the Mormon church in 1993 on account of its demonstrably racist, sexist, intolerant and anti-intellectual practices, policies and doctrines, as well as because of its deep historicaldishonesty..

The question at hand centers on Mitt Romney's chances--in the context of him claiming to be a devout Mormon--of becoming president of the United States. As another ex-Mormon has astutely noted in observations entitled, "The Problem with Mitt Romney For President Is This":

"In the [Mormon] Temple Mitt bowed his head and said yes to the Law of Consecration and he did it for others by proxy and to be sure he never ever forgets these covenants he donned the church approved underwear that carries the symbols to remind him of this fact 24 days a week 365 days a year.

"The Law of Consecration requires 'that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.'

"So when it is time to put pen to paper where will Mitt’s loyalties actually be? This in my mind is a very relevant question for non-mormons and the next presidential run. The oath of the Law of Consecration does not include any loyalties to country. This oath BTW, the general public is utterly unaware of."

Exactly.

When Romney first ran for president a few years back, I was contacted by then-senior editor Dave Astor of the trade magazine "Editor and Publisher," who asked for my take on Mormon Mitt's honesty (or lack thereof) and the prospects of a Mormon (Romney, in particular) becoming the nation's chief executive.

The interview was published under the headline, "Ex-Mormon Cartoonist Steve Benson Says Romney Not Telling Truth."

The article sparked a backlash from TBMs, resulting in a follow-up article by Astor on the eruption among the faithful in defense of their deceitful Brother Romney. Both are provided below.

First, the original article:

"NEW YORK: As an ex-Mormon, 'Arizona Republic' editorial cartoonist Steve Benson has strong opinions about current Mormon Mitt Romney. He said the Republican candidate's recent [2007] speech on religion should not be trusted by media people and other Americans.

"In his talk, Romney said 'I believe in my Mormon faith' while also noting that the church's 'teachings' would not influence his decisions if elected president.

"Yeah, right,' responded Benson, adding that 'Romney also believes in misrepresenting what his Mormon Church actually espouses.'

"Benson is the grandson of former Mormon leader Ezra Taft Benson.

"He told E&P that a Mormon believer is required by church doctrine (as dictated by the church's 'living prophet') to 'obey God's commands' over anything else. He said 'Romney, like all "temple Mormons," made his secret vows using Masonic-derived handshakes, passwords, and symbolic death oaths that he promised in the temple never to reveal to the outside world' -- and that Romney also secretly vowed to devote his 'time, talents, and more' to the building of the Mormon religion on earth."

"So, said Benson, the only way Romney could be truly independent of the church as U.S. president would be to disavow Mormon doctrine. 'He hasn't done that,' said the 'Creators Syndicate'-distributed cartoonist.

"'When Mitt says he belongs to a church that doesn't tell him what to do, that's false; it's a 24/7, do-what-you're-told-to-do church,' added Benson, who won the Pulitzer Prize for editorial cartooning in 1993.

"That was the year Benson left what he calls the 'Mormon cult.' One reason for his decision was disgust with the way Mormon officials tried to fool church members and the general public into believing that Ezra Taft Benson--Steve's then-94-year-old grandfather and church president -- was still capable of leading the church. 'He was not mentally or physically in a place where he could make any meaningful decisions,' recalled Benson. 'I know it because I saw his condition with my own eyes.'

"Benson--who was contacted by 'E&P' for this story--said journalists have basically given Romney a free pass on the 'fundamental contradiction' between being an observant Mormon and a U.S. president. 'Most journalists don't know about actual Mormon teachings and practices,' noted the cartoonist, adding that they instead see the religion as perhaps 'strange' but 'rather benign.'

"Romney 'needs to face an informed member of the media with "cojones" who has a working and perhaps personal experience with Mormonism,"' said Benson. 'It would be harder for Romney to do his well-practiced duck and dodge."'

"Benson himself drew a post-Romney speech cartoon that pictured John F. Kennedy saying, 'Ask not what your country can do for you . . . ,' followed by Romney saying, ' . . . [D]o whatever it takes for me to win Iowa.' (Many people believe Romney gave what he hoped would be a JFK-like speech on religion because he was losing support in Iowa.) But Benson said he hasn't heavily focused on Romney's Mormonism in other cartoons. 'Religious issues are very touchy,' he said. 'I do what I can, but I pick my battles.'

"Another reason Benson distrusts the words in Romney's speech is because the candidate has changed his public positions on issues such as abortion and gay rights to woo conservative GOP voters in states like Iowa rather than the more liberal voters he once courted to become governor of Massachusetts. 'He flips and flops like Jesus is coming tomorrow,' said the cartoonist. 'It's like Romney is reading from the Mormon Church playbook.'

"Benson explained his last comment by noting that the Mormon Church has also 'publicly flipped 180 degrees when it feels it's necessary for its image, for its financial solvency, and for political expediency.'

"He mentioned, by way of example, that black Mormons weren't allowed into the priesthood until 1978. And while polygamy has been publicly disavowed by the Mormon Church, Benson said 'the church still holds that it will be practiced as a matter of eternal doctrine in heaven. The church also currently performs polygamist marriage "sealings" in its temples around the world.'

"Benson predicted that Romney will not win the Republican presidential nomination. If Romney somehow IS nominated, added the cartoonist, he will not defeat his Democratic opponent.

"Voters, said Benson, 'are not ready for someone in the Oval Office who has committed to absolute obedience to a religion they feel is extremely odd and not in the American mainstream. I trust the rational U.S. electorate, not the weird Mormon God.'"

("Ex-Mormon Cartoonist Steve Benson Says Romney Not Telling Truth," by Dave Astor, "Editor & Publisher," 18 December 2007)
_____


Mormon believer blowback to the original article resulted in this "E&P" follow-up, entitled, "Steve Benson, Editorial Cartoonist, Reacts to Reaction He Received for Ripping Romney":

"NEW YORK: When editorial cartoonist Steve Benson criticized current Mormon Mitt Romney in an 'E&P' story earlier this week, reaction was fast and furious.

"Many blog posters backed Benson, but many others blasted the grandson of former Mormon Church President Ezra Taft Benson.

"For instance, they asked why the 'Arizona Republic'/'Creators Syndicate' cartoonist didn't also criticize Mormon politicians such as Democrat Harry Reid, and they said Benson's 1993 switch from Mormonism to ex-Mormonism made him as much of a 'flip-flopper' as he accused Republican presidential candidate Romney of being.

"E&P called Benson again today to get his response.

"Benson--who contended in the earlier story that a devout, 'temple-endowed' Mormon U.S. president can't be truly independent of the Mormon Church--said he didn't criticize Reid because the Senate Majority Leader 'is not making an issue of his Mormon devotion. He's not standing up in a carefully orchestrated stage play and explaining his religion to the American people. Romney's speech was a tactical move to woo fundamentalist Christians in the hotly contested Iowa political caucus. He invited this scrutiny. And, unlike Romney, Reid's not running for the most powerful position in the free world.'

"The cartoonist continued: 'Besides, it doesn't seem that Harry Reid's religion is as strong an operating force in his life or decisions as it is for Romney.' Benson added with a laugh: 'How could it be, given the conservative politics of most Mormons. Hell, Reid's a Democrat!'

"Responding to the flip-flop charge, Benson said he left Mormonism because church leaders were misrepresenting his aged grandfather's health and because of the 'sexist, racist, and homophobic' aspects he saw in the religion. But Romney, said the 1993 Pulitzer Prize winner, has jettisoned liberal positions out of 'political expediency' as the former Massachusetts governor tries to convince conservative GOP voters to make him their presidential candidate.

"'I'm not running for political office,' said Benson. 'I left Mormonism with no pretense of remaining devout--and I didn't do the Romney act of staying in while changing my spots faster than a leopard on steroids.'

"When asked his reaction to the negative e-mails he has received and the critical blog posts that have been written since the 'E&P' story, Benson said he isn't surprised that Mormons are very defensive about his comments.

"'One of my Mormon critics called me a "turncoat,"' Benson e-mailed after today's phone interview. 'So I asked him to be a good Christian, do what Jesus would do and give me his own coat. Haven't see the coat yet. Anyway, like the old saying goes, "hit pigeons flutter."'

"But the cartoonist feels no one has disproved anything he said about Romney or the nature of Mormonism's secret temple oaths and rituals. 'The proof is in the pudding,' Benson said in the e-mail. 'The trouble is, the Mormon Church doesn't want anyone to go poking around in its pudding.'"

("Steve Benson, Editorial Cartoonist, Reacts to Reaction He Received for Ripping Romney," by Dave Astor, "Editor & Publisher," 20 December 2007)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 04:11AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 08:09AM

A turncoat is someone who reverses a CHOICE.

What choice does a born-in-the-covenant Mormon have a bout the matter.

Steve would only be a turncoat if he chose to REJOIN TSCC which, unless I have misunderstood something, is far from likely

;-)

And thanks Steve for your posts.

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: peregrine ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 08:39AM

What is it about Mormons and freedom of the press? They are all for it when it supports their agenda, but say something they perceive as negative and look what happens. I read this article twice and did not see one single libelous word. It is all true. Yet LDS members are trying to silence the press. Kind of reminds me of the Nauvoo Expositor.

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Posted by: deconverted2010 ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 08:41AM

There is always something new to learn, I'm posting one of the comments. I had never heard of this:


lm3/14/2012
"Justifying this by implying Mitt will be a Church puppet is dishonest"
Ezra Taft Benson made sure he contacted the Church before he decided to act upon a request by the American Ambassador to Italy when he was Secretary of Agriculture.
David O. McKay Diaries,
"Wednesday, October 2, 1957

Last evening, October, 1957, Elder Ezra Taft Benson called me by telephone at my home and asked whether or not he should accept a government appointment to go to Rome, Italy. The American Ambassador to Italy there would like to arrange a conference for him with the Pope. I told Brother Benson that I would talk with my counselors this morning and then let him know."

.......


Now I'm curious to knw what the advise was. Did Benson go to meet the Pope?

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Posted by: lulu ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 09:10AM

start flagging apologist comments and post comments asking that the apologists' comments be removed because they are offensive.

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 09:22AM

Typical Mormons - We have the right to do whatever we want to your dead but you have no right to expose what exactly we are doing for them. Your dead loved ones are not sacred to us but our violation of them should be held sacred for us by you.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 11:06AM

We could say to them, "You object to us talking about your rituals, so you believe we have power over you."

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Posted by: Schlock ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 09:55AM

Isn't tbe temple ceremony considered to be the property of the masons? The morgdumb founders simply took the masonic ceremony and tweaked it a bit and called it their own. Seems like the 'corporation' should be called out for stealing intellectual property from the masons.

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Posted by: cricket ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 09:57AM

apply to Mormons because Joseph Smith ripped off the endowment script from the Free Masons to start with.

You go Richard, give'm hell!

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Posted by: abacab08 ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 10:16AM

I agree whole heartedly with the yahoo article. Was one of the main reasons why I left. It's akin to a house of cards for me in my opinion. The temple seems so far out of reach from sacrament and fast and tell a story meetings. Thanks Steve

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 10:39AM

As I've said before, Mormon defenders are the Church's worst enemy. The indignant "how DARE he tell the truth about us" complaints scream "CULT, CULT, CULT."

In the first place they are tacitly verifying the truth of what he says. In the second place they are also verifying what a big secret it all is.

I can't imagine a neverMo reading the TBM comments without thinking, "wow, that is one weird religion."

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 10:59AM


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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 10:50AM

I think when someone honestly talks about a religious ritual in your church and your reaction is to call it defamatory should be a big, red flag. Because it says that what you do in secret is stupid and telling anyone what it is makes you looks stupid. If it's exposed and you feel degraded maybe you should ask yourself WTF? And just out of curiosity, having been in the endowment an number of times, HOW exactly is it disrespectful of the Savior to talk about the temple ceremony. The Savior is hardly talked about in the temple ceremony - he's an also ran. Satan has the really big part. Nothing about the Savior's life or teachings or sacrifice is even mentioned.

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Posted by: Davey ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 11:45AM

That is definitely the case. The ceremonies are not about Jesus, they're about obedience to the cult, er ....church.

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 12:18PM

That's right- the only time that Jesus/Jehovahs role is mentioned is when Elohim motions toward J/J while saying that a savior will be provided.

The rest of His role is to do everything for the Omnipotent One, and to answer questions for the Omniscient One.

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Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 12:20PM

Yep. The temple Jesus is a middle management paper shuffler.

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Posted by: fossilman ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:16PM

"It's not secret, it's stupid"

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Posted by: PtLoma ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 10:57AM

I have a Yahoo ID, filled out the comments, and it never posted. What I did notice is that for the past two days there have been exactly 100 comments. I wonder if their storage maxes out at 100 messages and that newer messages bump older ones? There was a TBM poster named MMMCG (something like that) who was threatening RKP because he "broke his sacred covenenants" and who insistHered that the temple ceremony was copyrighted (it isn't). Her posts are now gone, as if hers were bumped by newer posts.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 11:31AM

and hundreds of comments having scrolled by now. I've gotten a number of comments posted but they are gone within a couple of hours.

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Posted by: ontheDownLow ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 11:33AM

I put in my two cents in the comments. That Bob Folkman seems like a church crony.

Nice job Richard and you too Steven Benson, I liked your comment on there.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 12:08PM

The work for the living and the dead that is done in the temples is also sacred to me. It is a tragedy to me that people can not feel the damage and ill will that is produced in articles such as this one. It is akin with the publicity that was spread abroad in Germany that lead to the death of millions of good people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 12:09PM by bignevermo.

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 12:09PM

http://packham.n4m.org/romney-secrets.htm

Just in case it is taken down, and I doubt it will be.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 12:12PM

Yet another example of how LD$ Inc. cannot exist without lawyers.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 12:19PM

Gee; doesn't representations of the ceremony for instructional ('non-prophet') uses fit into the 'Fair Use' exception?

comon now, mormons. get a GRIP!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2012 12:19PM by guynoirprivateeye.

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Posted by: top ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 01:03PM


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Posted by: Feijoada ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:07PM

Why are Mormons so irate? There's nothing new here. Temple ceremony, "Blood Atonement", polygamy, ancient Asian DNA in the Americas, expose of Book of Abraham, and so forth has all been in the public domain for years. Richard did an ouststanding job with his succinct, easy-to-understand summary of the boring, non-Christian, Mormon temple mumbo-gumceremony. Mormons don't like it. I'll bet that many of them now understand it better than they did before they read the article. It should be required reading for all prospective endowees.

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Posted by: grubbygert ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:12PM

"I'll bet that many of them now understand it better than they did before"

haha - you're probly right!

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Posted by: alex71ut ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:34PM

I suppose we could see 20,000 mormons (or perhaps just 200 FAIRbots doing it 100x each) flag this article. They might even threaten to boycott Yahoo, sue them for defamation, or something else. Does Yahoo have some system that counts flaggings and then auto-deletes something when a certain level is reached? Or does a human actually make a decision based on the comments? One thing for sure about Richard Packham is that he would never put something in print (especially up on a place such as it is on Yahoo right now) unless Richard had done his homework to make sure he got his facts right. As a result I think that any of our criticisms of Richard's critics ought to be directed towards having them specify exactly which of Richard's facts are inaccurate. In most cases I think the criticisms that would get any sympathy would be those from people who say he's being insensitive of the temple ceremonies. Well too bad for them as Richard has oftentimes stated that one man's sacred cow is another man's hamburger meat.

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Posted by: derrida ( )
Date: March 15, 2012 02:51PM

>>>
Mahonri 3/14/2012

For those who don't know much of this, until around 1923 the Temple Ceremony included an "Oath of Vengeance" against the United States of America.
Sure sounds like a 'sacred' thing given by Christ, doesn't it?
>>>

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