My very TBM wife and I are on the verge of separation and divorce. Two and a half years ago I told her that I no longer believe the church to be what it claimed. At the time I tried to be NOMish and kept attending to keep family peace. My very inflexible and orthodox wife demanded at the time that I never share my doubts or concerns with her. Worse than this she demanded that I never share my lack of faith with any of our four children, all under age 9. Among other reasons, after two years I couldn't stomach being a member anymore and I resigned my membership last June. Since I first stopped believing the lies and distortions of the corporation I have never attempted to teach my children any of my new "beliefs" or philosophies. I always respected my wife's wishes...until today.

After the kids came home from church today their non-mo friends came over from across the street and asked if they could play. My daughter gave the rote response of "we can't play because it's Sunday" and I said "Actually if you want to go play I'm okay with it". My daughter went to her mother and told her that I was going to go watch her play with her friends. She was excited to get out of the house and not be stuck indoors on a beautiful sunny day. My wife instantly told her that she wasn't going to play because that wouldn't be keeping the Sabbath day holy. She told my daughter that Dad has different beliefs but the rule of the house is that they don't play with their friends on the Sabbath. My poor daughter looked dejected after this.

When my wife got me alone later she tried to lecture me about how she wanted to keep things stable for the kids right now and didn't want to change things up too fast. I told her that as soon as I am moved out I am going to let the kids play with their friends on Sunday as much as they want. She again demanded that I not change the way things are and to not "confuse" the kids. I told her she was a religious tyrant who has made all the decisions in our home regarding religion and issues of faith and that when she is challenged she cries foul and complains that I am persecuting her for her religion.

I know this woman is going to try and poison me in the eyes my children when I move out.

Thanks for letting me rant. I needed to vent. I fucking hate this goddamned cult!

Unfortunately, she is not the only one...My step-kids dad was just like that for a long time...now he has loosened up, but only after he realized that his morg-bot ways were pushing his children away, not keeping them close. He still tries to persuade them, but has less of an effect on them now because they are 11 and 13 and are learning to think for themselves.

Good luck and know that the morg-bot will lighten up after a while, when she realizes that her kids prefer dad's place over hers on the weekends.

earthandspace Wrote:
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> I
> fucking hate this goddamned cult!

you only think you hate MORmONISM now, just wait until after the MORmON screw job you get after your MORmON divorce from your MORmON marriage.

You love the MORmON church right now in comparison to how you are going to feel in the future. ( good luck)

I beg you to make this as easy as possible for the children.

Your wife is a religious tyrant. She is also right-- make an effort to cooperate to save your children from being put in the middle.

The woman is unreasonable and is treating you disrespectfully in not allowing your beliefs to be respected as well. Nevertheless, that is all ending soon--why not just keep things stable for your kids for the remaining time you are there. Don't you think their parents divorcing is enough stress?

When you have them for visitation, they will live like you live. I know you are fed up, but if you can continue to show respect for your wife and her beliefs, you will never regret it.

Have you thought of getting some support for yourself through this transition? It's a big one and I am sure you want to end up in a happy place in your new life and relationship as a divorced father with your children. Sometimes a counselor can really help you to establish appropriate boundaries with their mother and negotiate an ongoing relationship that includes mutual respect in handling child visitation, etc.

Best of luck --

Anagrammy

Thank you anagrammy. I lurk a lot here and among the many posters I admire, you're one of my "heroes". You always seem so level-headed and I appreciate your advice. After I wrote my initial rant I went back to my wife to put her at ease that I won't change the rules while I am still in the home. Like you said my top priority is my children and I don't want them to suffer unnecessarily.

You're also right that I should see a professional. My employer has a great benefits package that provides short term therapy for relatively little cost just for situations like this.

I've had the hardest time finding support in my disaffection from the church. RFM pulled through for me today.

Wow, thank you everyone for the support. I really needed it today and I'm glad I found it here.

Meanwhile, to anchor yourself in the new paradigm of real morality, there's a thin book I recommend: "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Your wife will try to prevent you from teaching your children about spirituality/religion, as though you are a minus number and she is a positive number. If you like this super simple approach to shared values, you can consider it as a basis for a united approach that you and your wife can use to help your children.

It is far easier on the children if you say, "Mommy and Daddy don't agree about the Mormon church, but we both want you to grow up to be fine men and women. Both of us believe in these Four Agreements and we hope you will too."

That takes religion out of the black and white Mommy=Good, Daddy=Bad category and shows the children the very beginning of tolerance, that people can be good persons and believe differently. Which is something Mormonism does NOT teach, but is essential for the healthy development of children of divorced parents who have different religious beliefs.

I am sure your wife is threatened by your leaving, fearful you will corrupt the children to somehow let go of the iron rod. It will ease her fears if she can see in writing what you believe--be it this or another book (this one is super thin).

Best

Anagrammy

in a relationship with a dictator.

Marriage has to work for two people, not just one.

i feel for you because i sort of went through similar experience. actually it's the same thing actually.

my advice is to be patient. this is what i did and it worked out for me.


1] patience. don't speak your mind until the thing is over. all papers signed, etc.



2] once you move out and the kids go and stay with you, then you free them by allowing them mundane evil activities such as play in the backyard on sunday. no need to broadcast it to anyone. no need to advertise it anywhere. just do it quietly, be casual. pretend you have no idea of what day it was.



3] don't tell your kids (not yet anyway) about your beliefs. just tell them you graduated it already and therefore you no longer have the need to go to class anymore. if you go telling them about your non-mormon beliefs when they go home, they'll tell mommy. the thing will blow up in a million pieces.


4] keep it business-like when talking to your ex. smile, etc.


5] state that your weekends are your weekends. but if she insists on taking the kids to church even on your weekends or else, let her do it. your kids will see that cult is just a stupid club with grown up ladies talking and dressing like middle school girls.

time is on your side. the cult knows it, she knows it, you deep down know it: your kids will leave the cult eventually.



6] the kids will see and sense you are a much better father without the cult. they'll ask mommy not to go to church. she'll blame it on you. so what. deny all charges and let the dust settle.


7] did i say be patient? eventually they'll leave the church.




take care.

she told an absolute lie of a sob story to the judge, which made it so that be has to pay her an unfairly high settlement. She even got to dip into his civil service retirement, when he starts receiving it in ten years. He's basically screwed for the rest of his life. This is a woman who has a very successful business. She has a couple of millionaire relatives in Utah that coached her from the sidelines.

Just be careful!Keep detailed records of everything. I would even keep a log of when you have had the kids, even down to the things you did. A rabid TBM EX goes into attack mode, when feeling attacked. That way, if she starts telling the judge how you, for instance, neglect the kid in any way, you'll already have proof. My own TBM EX is still on the warpath with me, ten years later.

Good for you! Your kids will need you, especially in the near future when they are teens confronting the cult and their TBM mom's tyranny. Keep up the good work.

I feel very bad for you but admire you for standing up to her and for making a decision about your children that is certainly not harmful...so why the fuss. Divorce is a bear
(been there and done that) but at least you will be out and living YOUR life your way and that allows you to raise the kids YOUR way when you have them. This will be so important.

I assume you will not allow them to be baptised,is that right. Both parents should agree on something so important.They have all the time in the world to be baptised as an 18 yr. old if they so choose. Save your children. When you talk to them alone be sure you tell them that their mom can continue on with her beliefs but you want other things and would like for them to have more choices on a Sun. And you will do all you can to offer them choices. Take them on trips on Sun. or to the park or on a hike or to another church so they can see that their friends are religious too -most likely- but their church is not so strict. No eason to bash their Mom's religion at their tender age.

Definitely get a lawyer if you haven't. They cost money yes, but a good one can win many battles for you.When you talk to your ex, keep it simple and don't allow it to be a shouting match. She may want to but you keep cool. Especially when kids are around they will see who is being reasonable. I wish you well and hopefully in a few months to a yr. a workable plan will be in place and you are on our way to a new, much more enjoyable life.

It's heartbreaking to read of a little girl who wants to play with her friends on Sunday, but is forbidden to do so. What next? No TV or swimming on Sunday? No card playing or secular book reading? At the end of this continuum is that most shameful of all human inventions: the burqa.

I don't know your wife, and what way of thinking she may be naturally inclined to (however much the cult has her in its clutches), but is there any possibility of bringing her toward a common goal?

Ask her if she cares about stability for the kids.

Ask her if she thinks the kids love their father as much as they love their mother.

Ask her if she thinks her rigidity is going to draw in or alienate the kids more or less than your allowance of their free agency.

Think about all the things you want as a parent and see if you both want the same things.

You really have to split up? :( I always feel sad when that happens. You didn't withdraw membership that long ago. What would happen if her testimony unraveled over time and she left? Would you still want to be married to her?
Either way I know how you feel. My husband is the believer but he's jack so it isn't as hard, but still, when it comes to our daughter and his dictating beliefs in my presence I have a whole lot to ignore.
Best wishes to you and your family on whatever you pick to do. Many who split from their believer ex are happier for it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2012 04:49PM by suckafoo.

He doesn't want kids to play. What an asshat of a god she has.

Call a 'time out' on religion; see if that helps.

People who believe that Josephsmyth is "more important" than their marriage .....

U 'may not want to know'...

earthandspace Wrote:
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> I told her that as soon
> as I am moved out I am going to let the kids play
> with their friends on Sunday as much as they want.
> She again demanded that I not change the way
> things are and to not "confuse" the kids. I told
> her she was a religious tyrant who has made all
> the decisions in our home regarding religion and
> issues of faith and that when she is challenged
> she cries foul and complains that I am persecuting
> her for her religion.

A couple of points from hindsight, having been through something very similar to you -- my ex and I had this conversation just before I moved out.

You can't win by calling her names or implying "threats" (as she sees them) about how you will "confuse" (teach) your children.

Ask yourself, why do you feel the need to tell your ex-to-be what you will do? Why do tell her she is a tyrant when you know deep down inside she is just responding to the programming she has received all her life?

Probable answers: You're trying to manipulate her like she does to you.

What you should do is just act on principle and not try to stir her up or anger her or get your revenge. I realize that it doesn't feel very satisfactory to lay low, but for the good of your kids and your relationship with them, the best revenge is to just keep your hostility away from them (including not spinning your wife up with frustration) and, most importantly, have a lot of fun with your kids on the Sunday you have them. Show them the alternative perspective by making Sunday with you a day they love.

Your revenge will be when they choose fun over that silly church. And believe me, they will, even if they continue going to church, choose to not take it seriously.

> I know this woman is going to try and poison me in
> the eyes my children when I move out.

Yes, she probably will. And you seem to be acting out in hostility toward her. Get some peace and then act toward your children with love, fun and joy. Act toward your (ex) wife with ambivalence and indifference. Interact with her politely only as needed to deal with your children.


>
> Thanks for letting me rant. I needed to vent. I
> fucking hate this goddamned cult!

Yes, rant here. Get it out. Don't feel offended by what I am telling you. I really am just trying to give you the benefit of my hindsight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2012 05:49PM by redstapler.

Don't be too hard on your wife. You have to remember, she went into your marriage with certain expectations, whether they were spoken or unspoken: Assuming you were both TBM when you married, it goes like this: We will have an eternal family, We will raise our children mormon, We will/will not do certain things on Sundays. The children will attend seminary. We will go to church every Sunday, etc etc.
You have now changed, you have upset all of those expectations that come along with mormon marriage. Its time to discuss what those expectations are, how your children will be raised, etc. It is a very difficult thing for a spouse to process change in a marriage when a partner changes the rules or wants to change the rules all of a sudden.
I imagine you have certain expectations of your wife. How would you feel if all of a sudden she refused to meet the expectations that you have of her?
You have a lot of anger towards the church. Don't take it out on your wife. She is obviously still processing the change you went through. If you are at all interested in saving your marriage, please see a marriage counselor or start having discussions with your wife to navigate the compromises that will need to made in order to save it.
Compromise is the key to saving a marriage.
Marriage counselors are a hell of a lot cheaper than divorce lawyers, too.

What you are experiencing is not that abnormal.

Your wife is threatened by change she does not understand and is not equipped to deal with. (Surprise - LDS Inc. culture does a sh***y job preparing members for anything other than fantasy land.)

Result - power struggle with the kids at the center as she tries to buttress the status quo ante and you try to restructure you and your family life.

Look up a non-mo marriage counselor and seek help for building mutual empathy and conflict resolution.

Counselors are way, way cheaper than divorce.

Best of luck and you may see a different life.

Good luck to you. My Ex Wife has continued with; her Mormondum, new Husband and Two new Children. Our Three Daughters are living life the way they choose,which has been outside of Mormon Expectations and Beliefs. It could not have turned out any better as far as I am concerned. What I worried so much about has worked out and I am grateful. I like to think that they take the best of both and create something better on their own.

in fact, I've rarely know any LDS members who are that "strict" regarding Sundays. Most feel you shouldn't go shopping or outside the home to do "fun activities" (Lord knows why, esp. if you/your fam. has already attended church for that Sunday)----but not even allowing children to play w/their friends on a Sunday ????!!!!! Good Grief!!
My other bro. is a Bishop, and he feels the same. My Dad held high positions in the church, as well-----and he always let us kids play w/the neighbors on Sundays-----and both my bros. grew up to be 1) a Stk. President --in his 30's, no less. And 2) my other brother is now Bishop. So, playing on Sundays does not "harm" anyone, esp. children, for Heaven's sake.
Just wanted to share this w/you, EarthandSpace. She's being "fanatical" about this, and the kids will soon grow to rebel against it, believe me. It will backfire on her, without a doubt. I feel badly for your kids, bec. you are so right on regarding this one, hands down. Good luck w/whatever the outcome (of what you decide to do, regarding your marriage, etc.) Glad you're here on the board w/us. It's a Life Saver to many of us who have been SO harmed by that Fake CULT. . . Hang in there. There's alot of people here who share your pain, and care about you.