I sat down with the SP last night in his office. If you’ve been following my threads you’ll remember that he and the bishop had a habit of scheduling and cancelling the day before or sometimes the same day. I agreed to meet with him on his turf rather than mine for one reason: If things had gotten really bad it would have been easier for me to get up and leave than to try to get him out of my house. (I could tell you a nightmare story about trying to get a vinyl siding salesman out of my house a few years ago that I thought was going to involve a call to 911. But I digress.)

I honestly find the SP to be quite charming and sincere. He’s a nice guy and I know that from his perspective he feels like he’s doing what he has to. That being said here is an overview of our conversation and the techniques he used to try to “bring me back to the fold”.

We started off with about 15-20 minutes of BRT. (BRT=Building Relationships of Trust, missionary lingo for chit-chit to soften up an investigator) We talked about my ancestors who’d crossed the plains, my personal history, his personal history, hobbies, etc. He seemed a little jealous that I had relatives come across the plains and he was a first generation convert. After the talk about my family’s long history in the church he asked me how much involvement I saw myself as having in the church “going forward”. He was shocked when I said, “little to none”. He’ll still see me at pivotal events for friends and family but not on a weekly basis anymore. My guess is that he thought that after relating my family history I’d feel a sense of duty to continue. I don’t.

I took the reigns of the conversation and told him my concerns about flaws in the church’s method for finding truth. It was all based on feelings and emotions. He explained that it was more than just emotion, it was spirit to spirit communication. I asked, “So how do I know the difference?” He shared his feelings and emotions about some issue. I thank him for sharing and asked him if he would accept those same feelings if they came from a Muslim describing his spiritual experience. Ultimately he had no real way to distinguish than to say, “When you feel it, you’ll know it.”

Then the strategy moved to finding out specific details about my family. I simply told him that their views on the church run the full gambit and he is welcome to discuss their views with them, but I would not be an informer.

After this is got kinda of surreal.

He recognized that I had done and awful lot of reading and research for over a decade trying to make sense of the church’s claims. He said, “Sometimes our greatest strengths can become our greatest weaknesses. I know you wouldn’t use the word. But some people like you who are… intellectual have a problem…” I interrupted him at that point and told him that the phrase intellectual didn’t bother me. That flustered him and completely disarmed him. I think he thought I would be threatened by the word and I wasn’t. So he abandoned that thread and went fishing elsewhere.

He asked me if I had received the “miracle of forgiveness”. I asked him to explain. He went into a long story about once when he was interviewing a young man before his mission who had some sin in his past. He went on and on about how this young man hadn’t received the “miracle of forgiveness”. After about 15 minutes of this I stopped him and asked, “What are you implying? The only sin I can think of in my past is non-belief. And that came after years of earnestly looking for the witness you talk about, not before.” My guess here is that he was fishing for me to volunteer some past sin but I didn’t bite.

At one point, I don’t remember exactly where he tried to scare me back into the church saying, “Consider the implications if you’re wrong. You’ll be leading you family away from the truth.” I responded, “The opposite also holds true. What if the church is wrong? Then I’d still be leading my family away from the truth.” He reluctantly admitted that point.

He then read Moroni’s challenge and focused on the phrase “…with real intent” for another 15 minutes. I responded by asking him, “Are you insinuating that I don’t want it bad enough and that ten years of trying wasn’t enough? A few minutes ago you were telling me I was trying too hard and that was my strength was becoming my weakness. Now you’re telling me I’m not trying hard enough. I’m confused.” So he jumped into the Book of Revelation and assured me that once before I did have “real intent” when I stood up to Satan in the War in Heaven. He went on for a while there hoping for a response from me. I had to interrupt him when he began to open up his Doctrine and Covenants, “I don’t think you understand the depths of my disbelief. I feel bad that you are put in this position. I’d have though that the previous bishops and other priesthood leaders would have briefed you a little bit. But apparently they haven’t at all. I’m not a big fan of labels but if it helps you find some common ground to base future conversations on, I consider myself an agnostic. At this point I’m not even sure there is a god at all.”

At this point somebody form the high council room next door knocked on the door and it became apparent that he was looking for a way to gracefully end our conversation. It had been well over an hour. He asked if it would be okay if we ended in a prayer. I said, “This is your office and I have not problem if you pray here.” He asked me if I would do it and I politely said, “No”.

Overall I was very disappointed and actually felt sorry for him. He had come to the meeting completely unprepared. I have blog that I’ve been keeping for almost 6 years. About a third of the posts are about the church in some form or fashion. I’ve shared details from my blog posts with him in emails that we’ve exchanged. It was clear that he hadn’t done even a cursory glace at either to see where I stood. My only guess is that previous times he’s had this conversation with people it worked just fine and he was just on autopilot from those conversations.

Anyway, I doubt he’ll call me back. But he was very pleasant and it wasn’t a complete waste of time. Perhaps at the very least he learned the he can’t “phone in” these interviews in the future. If he does want to meet again I’ll send him a list of talking points so he doesn’t feel so unprepared.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2012 10:41AM by peregrine.

Peregrine, thank you so much for sharing this! I am so impressed by how you handled that meeting. Few of us know how we would handle a meeting like that! I found myself feeling so grateful that you represented "us" so well. I think we all hope that we can somehow be a catalyst to help others start questioning and becoming "intellectual". Great job!

Thanks.

over an hour of your life you will never get back.

It was a pleasant conversation with a man I consider to be a friend. It was hardly a waste of time.
I'm more concerned about getting back all the time I wasted watching the Star Wars prequels.

at least you gave him a few things to think about.

I feel the same about those prequels. LOL!

You should have said the closing prayer:

"O God, my stake president hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and not through feelings or perceptions of spirit-to-spirit communication which can obviously be explained through other means. Wilt thou also stop tampering with all historical and scientific evidence of thy existence, hiding thyself from any rational mind, for thou must know that this sends a mixed message to thy children.

And God, if thou dost not exist, wilt thou please inform this stake president of thine oblivion, and show him that he relieth on feelings, and that his spirit-to-spirit-commincation explanation he hath proven false with his later statement "when you feel it, you'll know," thus proving that he relieth on feelings as opposed to objective and impartial research and analysis. Please, then, teach all believers of falsehoods, which we call religions, that they need not believe in that which is not. Indeed, show them that they can be happy and lead fulfilling lives as agnostic atheists, such as I have proven in this past year.

Please, God, or Oblivion, or Nothing, whatever term suiteth thou best, help the mormons to realize how pathetic and unsubstantiated their arguments sound to outsiders, such as myself. I empathize with them, for I once gave the same hollow explanations, but now I see that faith and the spirit, as this kind stake president has explained to me, are merely emotional convictions which cause pride and stubborness, that people such as mormons become so caught up and convinced that their emotional responses are indicative of absolute truth that they will not only ignore reason when it is explained to them, but find any possible explanation that their faculties can conjure to allow them to remain irrationally true to that which they believe they know is true, but cannot verify using any means.

Please show them their feelings of knowledge and conviction are perceived, not aboslute, and that the same feelings of certainty are found among all religions. Yes, God or Oblivion, I am sure he feels that he knows it, but please provide him with evidence and/or proof to substantiate his feelings. Help him also to consider alternative explanations for his feelings, such as hypnotic suggestions or chemical releases forging strong synapses in the brain. Help him to know that the spirit is not the only possible explanation for his conviction - that scientific studies have shown that the same level of conviction can be obtained by other means, such as the two that I just mentioned.

The truth is in thy hands, oh God. We await thy answer. Amen."


Then wait to see if he returns with another "amen."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2012 11:20AM by kimball.

That was one hell of a good interview you had peregrine. But kimball is right ;) You f***ed up on your chance at the end in not giving the prayer ;)

As just punishment you should be given a temple recommend for the next 2 years so you can go clean up the holy sh*t in Jesus's toilets at the temple every week ;) Sure it would be better to start emptying out the Lord's bank accounts by having LDS inc. use some of their temple film ticket revenues (i.e. 10% of the patrons' gross income) on janitors to clean their bathrooms like other movie theatres do. How many of you spend 10% of your gross income on movie tickets at a cinema where they nag you all the time to come clean their toilets on the day you're not watching a movie? It would have to be a really good movie to convince me to spend that kind of dough and free labor so I could go watch. I'd probably expect them to throw in some fire insurance too on top of the tickets to watch that helluva movie. But the failure to participate in this loving spiritual blessing filled labor of toilet cleaning could result in missing out on priceless moments in eternal history. For example, imagine the blessed joy you could experience while scrubbing some toilet when you overhear in the initiatory booths how his majesty Adolph Hitler is being annointed for about the 12th time as a King and a Priest to the Most High God to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever.

OK in all seriousness .... good interview. Giving a prayer at the end could've been dangerous ;)

I'm sure it would be the deathly quiet sounds of crickets in the SP's office the amen.....

I felt the spirit while reading your prayer.

Thumbs up.

I think it takes a while in the de-conversion process to get good footing in a conversation like that.

I especially appreciate your response to having received the miracle of forgiveness, and how you handled the trying too hard/not trying hard enough. It's tricky not to get caught up in the circular stuff. Well done.

It is always good to see a church leaders tactics shut down. I hope you gave him food for thought. As a convert he has fewer family ties keeping him in the fold. If he is a friend, your conversation likely gave him pause. At the very least he realized that his typical emotional manipulation tactics will not always work on members!

It is so interesting in these cases the way that bishops or other TBM interrogators flit from one point to the next, in vain hopes of finding something they can nail the exmo for—or at least, that they can *shame* the exmo for. Their brains just cannot comprehend that the interrogative techniques which are so effective with the sheeple are worthless with wide-awake exmos.

The best thing you did was to stay calm and collected throughout the conversation. I would not recommend this type of meeting-with-the-bishop for exmos unless they are *sure* they can stay calm, as you did.

Well done!

Sounds like a nice guy, at least he didn't try to Browbeat you into submission, correct?

That's been my experience, I guess my leaders thought they were soooooooooooooooooooo much better than me.

Perhaps LDS leaders, people are beginning to acknowledge the difference between Feelings & Facts.

Good for you Peregrine.

I'll never understand the posters on this board that are so scared of Mormons that they shake for hours if one of them shows up on their doorstep to try to invite them to church.

Sounds like you did a great job of having a great conversation with another person with different beliefs than yours. The great thing about talking to Mormon leaders is their logic falls apart really quick and then then have very little to lean on other than the emotional testimony and exhortations to get your own. Which is easy to parry.

Way to diss on a good portion of posters here.

That some people are strong in one area, others are strong in another.

And some people are incapable of empathy or compassion.

I feel sorry for them, mostly.

they really have no answers. The proof of the deceptions and lies promoted by the church is everywhere. The claims of the church are completely invalid. These guys come from a position of having never questioned (with real intent) the church.

It is funny how they question your sincerity, when in reality, it is they who have never really investigated the church to which they are dedicating their lives.

Good call Danboyle! I like that. They are the ones that haven't investigated hard enough. I would like to ask how they explain the fact that no non-mormon egyptologists think JS was worth a sh!t at translation? Or why the BOM got so much wrong about this hemisphere? Could it be that people who write books while looking at a rock in their hat really are just kinda full of it?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2012 11:58AM by WiserWomanNow.

Nice work, peregrine. I enjoyed your post and was impressed that you held your composure and appear to have actually accomplished something with your well-meaning SP. I like that you weren't flustered by the term "intellectual". I guess that means your SP wants you to be the oppositie of an intellectual, which I'd gather is an "ignoramous". Is that what TSCC is seeking? Guess so.

Great job, hope you made him think.

I thought TSCC was now denying the whole Jesus/Satan/brother/war in heaven thing?

A great report- you took every passive aggressive statement he made and turned it to aggressive, making him back down.

Only thing missing is your prayer at the end where you ask God to bless the church leadership with the Gift of Transparency.

:)

Anagrammy

Well done. Feels good when you don't succumb to supposed PH authority and see these guys for what they really are - mostly well-meaning individuals, but deluded all the same - and usually not as well versed in the issues with history and doctrine as you are.

When I mentioned to my Bishop that I was turning down a calling and didn't believe any more, he flatly told me that he didn't want me to go into any details of my issues in case it caused him to question!

He's a genuinely nice guy and he admitted candidly that if he were ever to question anything it would probably be the existence and nature of God. Bring it on I say.... I have high hopes for him in the future.

Great story; it actually reminded of getting into a conversation about how the new 'Star Trek' movie fits into the universe of the original series, since they contradict each other so badly.

Oh, by the way, I mean that Star Trek is made up too, but some people are waaaaay too hooked on it.......

You handled that beautifully. I hope I do half as well when meeting with our Bishop tonight!

You are well-read and a great thinker. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Seconded! Someday I hope to be so quick on the conversational draw.
I am still susceptible to "thought stoppers", but with practice I am better at parrying them than I used to be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2012 03:51PM by WinksWinks.

Thirded. (I know that's not a word.) I am so impressed! You really handled yourself well and were very respectful.

You were immune to his attempted manipulation.

When you have knowledge, and you understand how manipulators work, they are powerless over you.

Way to go. You have officially graduated from the church.

Well done, Peregrine. It still amazes me that Mormons think the word "intellectual" is a derogatory term.

I appreciate all the comments. Thinking on my feet and making my point without getting defensive doesn't come natural for me. I have to really work hard to avoid getting emotional. I'm glad I was able to pull it off last night.
I really do think that the fact that I didn't go looking for a fight really helped. My goal was just to understand his perspective and I think I achieved that as well as explain mine to him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2012 10:00PM by peregrine.

The most frightening part of this conversation, imo is when he said, "people who are intellectual have a problem." I have no words.

"People who can actually think tend to have problems with the Church. What the Church really wants is non-thinking sheeple."

He might watch his testimony.

(I could tell you a nightmare story about trying to get a vinyl siding salesman out of my house a few years ago that I thought was going to involve a call to 911. But I digress.)

It's called a Glock :) Works every time

Thanks for sharing. Well done!

For those former stake presidents here, do they coach you guys about answering questions/intimidation tactics...? These days there must be a constant parade of members wanting valid answers... They need attorneys in all leadership positions now, to debate the sheeple, or sinful intellectuals. Feminists just get shown the exit.