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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
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Posted by: I'm Dixie ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 10:53PM

Having known many Mormons, I've gotten the impression that any woman who has had sex (even if raped -- or widowed) is somewhat tainted, and that returned missionaries should strive to marry only virgins.

I'm wondering if Elizabeth's Scottish husband (and her junior by 2-3 years) is somewhat less rigid regarding that unspoken rule.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 10:56PM

I know Mormons who wouldn't have a problem with it. Others would. Mormons are people and are not all alike.

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 11:01PM

I didn't know he was Scottish. Was he in the States when he met her or did she meet him on her mission? Just curious.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 11:08PM

She met him on her mission according to the newspaper.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 11:01PM

Depends on the person. I don't think being an American has much to do with much of anything. A couple of years in age difference is negligible.
Nothing to be concerned about in my view.
It's their lives. They got married the way they wanted when and where they wanted.
It's none of my business.:-)

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 11:14PM

a Manly Man would marry her, AND treat her as his Equal in a 50/50 Loving relationship; trust & respect, Mercy & Compassion; Honesty, Charity, & marital fidelity.


That's my story, and I'm sticking to it...

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 01:05AM

It is in very bad taste, in my opinion, to use this lovely woman, a torture/rape survivor, as an example of a "licked cupcake," if that's what you are implying.

We exmormons should support victims of sexual assault, ESPECIALLY when it has been caused by the proliferation of the doctrines taught by one Joseph Smith.

I believe I can speak for the majority of us and say we stand by Elizabeth Smart and wish her joy, happiness and a great life. She deserves our support.

We do our movement no good when we show ourselves to be heartless in pursuit of something bad to say about Mormonism.

Anagrammy

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 02:07AM

I think it was more of a question of American Mormon male priorities.

I wonder if Elizabeth is hoping to live in the UK. That would probably free her from a lot of media oversight -- if that's what she wants.

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Posted by: Bob...not registered ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 12:44PM

Well said.

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Posted by: b ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 12:45PM

(meant to reply to annagrammy)

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Posted by: brigantia ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 03:47AM

especially after reading this.

The Scots will take Elizabeth into their hearts, on face value and will adopt her as one of their own, mormon or not.

I understand she is a musician and plays the harp very well. I can't think of a better place to enjoy doing what she does best.

I imagine her performing at the Edinburgh Festival and getting some lovely reviews, within which her mormonism will matter none.

They will love her and protect her - in my opinion.

I do wish people would let her be, she's come through her ordeal magnificently and deserves to be happy, at last.

Briggy

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 01:16PM

:)

(Actually, a fair number of my ancestors hailed from Scotland.)

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 05:26PM

After what she has been through, Elizabeth deserves as normal and happy a life as possible.

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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 12:48PM

I'm not sure where you got the impression that "I've gotten the impression that any woman who has had sex (even if raped -- or widowed) is somewhat tainted, and that returned missionaries should strive to marry only virgins."

It's not true at least with any Mormons I've ever been associated with.

Someone being raped would in no way disqualify them from being married. For most, having had sex before wouldn't be a big deal either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2012 12:51PM by ronas.

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 02:48PM

President Spencer W. Kimball, in his book Miracle of Forgiveness, quoted Prophet Heber J. Grant as saying, "[t]here is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity--realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world."
The doctrine could easily be understood to apply to rape victims as well - another reason that victims could be afraid to report what happened. I hope Elizabeth Smart hasn't encountered this attitude, she's been through enough.

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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 03:16PM

Lots of "prophets" have said lots of stupid things. Not all of them have equally infiltrated Mormon culture.

I never once heard a statement anywhere in my years as Mormon that it was better to marry a virgin than someone who had had sex. I'm sure it happens within the church that a girly must be a virgin to get married, but it isn't widespread in my experience. Certainly the idea that someone to be unworthy to be married because they were raped is not true in either Mormon doctrice or culture.

On the other hand I do remember statements somewhere that if you were to be raped you, you should fight it even to the death, because you would be better off being killed than letting yourself be raped. Pretty stupid.

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 03:33PM

I was in a university class just a few years ago in Utah county where the teacher asked the students to choose the most important traits they were looking for in a future spouse. Being a virgin was #1 or #2 on almost every list, boys and girls alike - more important than having a good personality, sense of humor, etc. It's very much a part of the Mormon culture. I would hope that they would consider a rape victim differently, but I'm not sure if they would.

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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 03:45PM

Interesting - and kind of scary.

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Posted by: goldenrule ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 04:57PM

Interesting. We did that same activity in YW. #1 trait on the every list (except mine) - white.

Sorry to thread jack. Carryon...

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 04:49PM

Unless, of course, you were my bishop or part of my bishopric or you were my YW leader, or my parents.

Because, after I was raped at age 15, ALL of those people told me that I was a dirty nasty filthy whore who didn't deserve to be loved and that no kind, decent, righteous mormon man would ever want me. Which is why I should fight to the death anyway; nobody will want me to mother their perfect little TBM children, might as well off myself. I'd be much more useful to the church as a faith-promoting cautionary tale than if I tried to marry and make babies like some sort of common every day slut.

Don't stand there and tell me that mormon culture doesn't believe this. I heard it every day of my life after THAT day and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't deny and diminish other people's REAL experiences.

I have some other things to say, but they are inappropriate and will get this post deleted. Consider yourself cussed out.

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 05:04PM

That's just horrible that they would say that to you, dogzilla. It's mental abuse from the people you trusted, at a time when you were vulnerable. It's disgusting.
I never had anyone tell me I wouldn't be worthy to get married, because I never gave them the chance. I knew the doctrine. I didn't tell anyone what had happened until much later.
I really hope you have been able to recover from that emotional pain. Any marriage partner who can't value you as an individual and respect your strength for making it through the experiences you've been through, isn't worth being married to anyway.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 05:04PM

You deserved love and support after your horrible experience, and the adults in your life let you down. Shame on them!

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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 05:05PM

I am very sorry this happened to you. What they did to you is truly horrifically disgusting. Rape is horrible - but IMO - what was done to you after the rape was even worse. (Sorry if that opinion is also offensive to you - I don't want to diminish the horror of rape - but for those who should be your support group in recovering to continue to beat you down is horrid.)

I certainly don't mean to diminish others real experience, but in my real experience the majority of Mormons I have been associated with would not condemn someone for being raped nor consider them unworthy for marriage. I am truly sorry your experience has been exactly the opposite. I don't doubt or disbelieve you for a minute.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2012 05:06PM by ronas.

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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 08:57AM

Thank you,Ronas. I take back my cuss out. ;>)

I just wanted to make the point that these ideas are taught in YW, in wards all over the world. SWK did say that in "It's a Miracle if You're Forgiven" (ha ha) and people take that crap to heart. I can't tell you how boiling mad I was when I heard E. Smart's bishop say on CNN that she was still pure in the eyes of god (Really? That had to be announced to the WORLD?). I'm not mad at her. I'm mad at god. The mormon god, anyway. He gave her a pass, but held me responsible.

Gah.

Anyway, I do think there are probably some guys who require a virgin and just won't even consider a licked cupcake -- regardless of how her cupcake got licked. These are probably deeply insecure guys who fear they are so inept, they don't want a woman with enough experience to have something to compare them to. Those guys are probably right. ;>)

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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 09:22AM

You make a good point that the place a lot of this sort of junk would be taught is in the YW program which of course I have no exposure to.

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Posted by: Tabula Rasa ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 12:49PM


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Posted by: Exmogal ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 12:54PM

I think the poster meant that most American RMs would not want to marry someone who had been used and abused the way Elizabeth was. At least the uber-TBMs, such as my nephew who was a very extreme missionary.

Or at least, many Mormons were taught to believe that once someone had sex before marriage, they were "tainted" and "used." My own TBM parents emphasized this to us repeatedly, and I remember the church leaders also did.

But I think the modern TBM kid/RM is probably a lot less judgmental. And by now, the poster is already aware if he wasn't before, that she married a Scot.

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Posted by: elcid ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 12:58PM

Well I hope she's happy, and for god's sake I hope she figures out that she doesn't need to be in the news anymore.

What happened to her was awful and what she may or may not have done is a mystery, at least to me...

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Posted by: Glo ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 02:27PM

The OP's question was not unreasonable.

I remember RMs in college who would not not even think of marrying a girl that did not have her young womens medallion.
Some nazi TBMs can get awfully picky.

It would be great if the couple could move to Scotland. So romantic, I loved it there.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 03:02PM

Does this mean that LD$ Inc. will be eliminating their licked cupcake doctrine ?

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 05:06PM

Let's see what the Prophet Spencer W. Kimball has to say:

“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or TAKEN or STOLEN it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no Voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”
–Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness. (Emphasis added)

So, according to President Kimball, her CHASTITY is gone and can never be regained.

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 06:14PM

Kimball implies that a girl's chastity is more valuable than her life, and that her chastity can be taken or stolen from her. What a horrible thing to tell a rape victim - now that you've been through this terrible experience, we want to tell you that you had something stolen from you that is more valuable than you are. And by the way, are you sure you fought him the whole time? You didn't give in just a little, did you? Because you were terrified for your life? That's no excuse, your virtue is worth more than your life is.
That's the most sick, perverted, twisted, disgusting doctrine ever.
Why does he assume it's a girl who is being raped? Is a boy's chastity as valuable as a girl's?

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Posted by: Misfit ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 06:11PM

The more important question for their marriage is, will she be able to make the transition from sex being an act of violence to sex being a normal and fun part of a healthy relationship? I can only imagine what kind of damage her kind of experience could do to a woman emotionally. I hope for her sake and her husband's sake that she has had some sort of counseling to come to grips with her experience.

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