I've been asked to post this again. It might be helpful. It's mostly about principles that I found worked.

Re: Staying Married --- This is how I make it work with a believing husband.


That has been my situation for several years now. I am often asked about how I do it.

This is an overview and a little background from some prior posts. (updated)

Everyone's situation is different. It requires compromise, negotiation, some things that are not always easy to do.

I recognized, early on, that I needed to accept that we both have rights.
There is a right that we often forget. :-)
The right to believe in Mormonism.
That comes into play when one partner changes their mind about their beliefs in the LDS Church's claims and the other holds onto them.

I was a convert as a young adult woman---Mormon for over three decades--certainly, if anyone understood that I would! As a young adult convert, it was my "adopted tribe." I adjusted to the culture shock, especially when we landed in Utah in Wymount Terrace Married Student Housing. It wasn't easy, but I made it work, including trying to find work. Besides, I am a bulldog - I have a tenacious personality, I will do the work to find a way for the best outcome!

When I could no longer accept or believe the claims, (another story for another time), I had a big dilemma: how do we handle that in our marriage?

I was done. Through. Not going to be a Mormon anymore. I needed to tell my husband, and interestingly, he accepted it and asked what I needed from him. I told him I needed him to live the 11th Article of Faith and he said he would, and he has. He had some warning. He knew I was not content with many things in the LDS Church for some time.

(11th Article of Faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. )

Also, it seemed reasonable to "take turns" about a few things. We had done it his way for over 30 years, now he could do it my way, about a few things. And we have! :-) We had some rough spots about that, but we worked them out.

I completely stopped attending the LDS Church in my late 50's, sometime in 1998 after some traumatic events. The last one was The Man in the Restroom story. That was the impetus for figuring out "what is wrong with this picture" and lead to months of research and study, much on line and from books and from a family member doing the same thing. A few years later, my husband retired. I had retired earlier from my last business that I owned. Later,I resigned my membership, officially in 2002.

One Big Lesson I needed to learn,(after making a big mess):
just because I changed my mind, that is no guarantee my spouse will,or anyone else for that matter. We cannot control other people.

And why would he? Initially, I had the expectation that if I changed my mind, everyone else would. Ahh...not so fast, it does not work that way. Everyone else (LDS folks I knew) wasn't even interested in what I had to say! In fact, they thought I had lost my mind or at a minimum been offended. Well, sure, I would say, if everyone that had ever been offended didn't come to church, there would be no one there! :-)

But that was not the reason I left. The claims--that wild whopper (metaphysical, supernatural visionary claims), that whipper snapper Joseph Smith Jr. told about golden plates and angels, etc. that created the God Myth that is still working today cemented by it's generational, cultural, traditional religious rituals.

I am 100% certain that there is no way my believing husband of over seven decades will change his mind about his beliefs in Mormonism. I used to think it was just a matter of some information, or hey, look what I found, did you know this, but I did not take into consideration the immense power of the spiritual witness and the power of the belief by faith. That was a wall I could not surmount. And, believe me, I tried.
The power of the spiritual witness is at the core of a testimony.

What I initially failed to take into account, was the power of that belief by faith that others have, that is paramount in Christianity in general, as I well know, coming from a long line of Christian ministers. Nothing new there. They didn't change their faith, or change their mind either. Still haven't.

Well. ....What to do?
Hmmm..... I needed to set some priorities and make a decision that would have the best possible outcome and pay attention to some basic facts of life: nobody can change anybody else. I had to sit with that for a long time to finally "get it." I have a "fix-it" personality. I was sure, initially, that I just needed to change my tactics.Not so. I needed to understand that some things were not within my power and to let it go.

I had to do the work to let go of the emotional attachment to the expectation (a little Buddhism helped me with this), and that I did not have the power to change another person. That was a biggie! My observation is that few people in this life ever "get" that one!

Did I want to be one of those folks that hang onto the emotional attachment to negativity: anger, hate, bitterness, resentment, disdain, etc? NOPE. Not me. I don't like being treated: less-than, or stupid, dumb, or not OK especially because of my beliefs. Why would I want to do that to someone else?

I have the kind of mind that sees: The Big Picture, takes an Objective View as much as possible, and finds the middle road that works most effectively with compromise and negotiation. I know the power of negativity on the whole person: mentally, and physically. I was not going to "go there."

I determined to keep my self respect, and self confidence in top shape and not fall into thinking patterns that would sabotage my process.

Then I needed to ask myself:
Can I make peace with that?
Can I let it go?
Can I leave it alone and not make it an issue? (This was very hard, initially!) Can I just be quiet about it and not harp on it to people who don't give a rats arse?

Then I learned something that took me a some time to finally "get" -- it's only an issue if I make it one! That's true about almost everything in a marriage relationship.

Ahh... I had options -- and lots of them. I didn't have to make my decision into more than it was -- nor make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Maybe, sometimes, people just give in. They can't out-talk or out-fight their partner, they are worn down, exhausted, can't fight anymore, so they acquiesce and go along to get along! But did I want that? Clearly -- no.

Maybe, just maybe, the marriage and that investment of love, time, family, financial, emotional issues, etc. is much, much, much more important that a difference of opinion about some beliefs !

Could I make peace with that? You bet I could! Probably helped a lot that I was a convert and had a couple of decades of life prior to Mormonism that was part of who I was also.

I realized early on that I needed to give myself permission to do the work to find my own path to inner happiness and peace. And, that is what happened, little by little.

Making Peace with it all was not a conscious goal, it was the result of the process of rewriting thinking scripts left over from Mormonism, (another post with a long list-getting myself Un-Mormonized!), seeing The Big Picture and creating my new World View, all the while protecting my self respect, self confidence, etc. I was OK all along. Making peace with my life, all of it was the natural result.

That meant I was learning to process the past, let it go and focus on living in the Now. It's not easy; my mind, like most folks, likes to go back and rework things, repeat the past in my head, fix what is long gone. But did I need that? NOPE! Sure didn't. That included making peace with my life as a Mormon and making peace with my life as a former Mormon. That meant I needed to understand something about the past: there were no: wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what if's. (Another big subject)

It required that I do the work to change my thinking. Change my thoughts. It's only a thought. I was the one to change my attitude and change my focus. Just thinking about it was overwhelming.

So, I had to practice some skills. They were new ones. I did some study, research, read a bunch of books, took classes and found out what I needed to do for a positive outcome while making major changes in my World View.

I needed to learn the skills of focusing on today, having an attitude of gratitude. I needed to learn to be more skeptical, use critical thinking skills, less gullible; be more objective, think in terms of the Big Picture, think about what I wanted to accept and believe from any source. No more: go along to get along, agree just because someone else is doing it, or believes it, or suggested I do it. I took every idea that came into my head, apart and analyzed it.

More conclusions:
Some things are just not worth fighting or arguing about for or against.
We can't all be the same.
We can't all believe the same things.
We can't be everything to anyone all the time.

AND:
What did I want for myself and my family: I wanted everything that was within my power. Next I had to figure out what was within my power and what was not.

I decided: I am not going to give up anything; not one iota of my investment in my family, home, marriage because I changed my mind about my beliefs in Mormonism. We are people first. Beliefs second. Once I set that priority and kept it firmly planted in my mind, life started to flow peacefully. It was like opening up a damn that I had constructed within myself. When I let go, things began to flow much more smoothly.

The result: we have a peaceful life for the most part; he is a believer and I am not. He has his beliefs, and I have mine. Do they agree all the time. Absolutely not. Why would we? Is it OK to argue, and make a fuss? Sure it is. We can do that. We can be passionate about our differences. We have agreed to disagree. And, why not? It's OK. We can do that, no matter what the issue is.

I hope to get to 50 plus years of marriage in Aug of 2012, and not let something as insignificant as a difference of opinion about religiously based claims and belief by faith divide us or our family! Do we have to work on it? Of course we do!

So.... life goes on and on and on.
We make the best with what we have.
The older we get, the more changes and health issues we face. Some very scary ones! It's a struggle, but it's always worth it.

We play the cards we are dealt. Not everyone gets the same cards!

I chose well. My spouse is a good man. And, I am told, those are hard to find! :-)

It is not always easy, or smooth sailing, but with a little effort and a positive attitude it is so much easier! Resentments and anger melt away in the face of a positive attitude and laughter. Laughter really is the Best Medicine.

There was no room for negative self talk, or negative energy either. I knew I was OK. I knew I could do anything I set my mind to. I have to slap myself around some times and knock some sense into my head...again, and again....and admit my errors, take responsibility, make amends, and start over, dozens of times, but the more I stay on course, stay focused on what I really wanted for myself and my family, the easier it becomes.

Appreciation is an amazing power supply. It's like magic. Practically nobody can resist it! It's surprising how far a simple compliment will go! A -- thank you!
Just walk down the street or drive your car with a smile on your face !
Say something to get a laugh from someone. They won't forget you. It will break down barriers and open doors.

I have learned that life is best lived with a sense of humor. A lot of laughter every day. I'm so convinced of the health benefits of laughter (well documented) it ought to be prescribed by doctors!

With what years I have left, I have given myself permission to get to the laughter, find the fun and enjoy my life. A smile and laughter is contagious! Practically nobody can resist that either!

Difference of opinions, in the long run of a very long life with good people are really not that important! ahh... What a relief to know it's OK to let go, let it be, don't let the past mess up my present....... and just ....enjoy today!

Love is the greatest power! Life is about loving others unconditionally and As-Is. They don't need us to fix them. And, treating others the way we want to be treated. Don't let the past mess up your present.

It's wise not to take things personally.
Don't Take Anything Personally.
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering. ~ Miguel Angel Ruiz

To fully understand how and why this works like this I have explained it this way:

Mormonism, in my long experience and observation is more accurately described as a patriarchal, generational, cultural, religious tribe. In fact the word: tribe is used in their lexicon. As a convert, I was considered an adopted member of the tribe. Considering how tribes manifest, it is, in my view, the best way to understand how Mormonism creates a whole paradigm for the individual in a familial, societal, religious context aka tribe, complete with it's own unique rituals, music, language, dress.


This system, including everything in their teachings/doctrines is not just earthly in their view, it's Eternal.
That is the core for their World View and how they incorporate their extended family.

Everything in the life of a truly believing, testimony bearing, totally immersed, temple attending, generational Mormon is about their goal to live Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom together as a family.

This is the context that their view of their Eternal family functions. Therefore, their lives among their family is geared around the rituals/ceremonies-costumes: blessings, baptisms, priesthood advancement for the boys, missions, temple marriages,"Callings" etc, and around and around it goes.

Just like other generational religions (much larger, and much longer established), this is a religious heritage that most often is at the core of the identity of the individual. You are born a Buddhist, Muslim, Christian: Catholic, a Methodist, a Baptist, etc., etc., and you die as such -- which is typical in my experience.

It's important, in my view, to not make it about right or wrong, good or bad. It's about religious rights and people hold those dear. When we refuse to accept our loved one's religious beliefs, (at least on some level) that is nearly always interpreted as rejection. It's the old saying: don't like my dog, don't like me! :-) Don't like my religion, don't like me!Generational, familial rituals/traditions follow a person from birth to death. It's worldwide.

That is why I stress the importance of unconditional love. People will always need to feel they are OK just the way they are, at least in someone's eyes.

It requires discarding the notion that I need to teach my believing spouse .... something... open their eyes... etc. I say: never mind. If and when they see from your example, usually, that there is something they want to know, they will do it on their own.

I know my case is different than many as we are both retired, and have health issues that prevent church attendance. But, that does not change the believer's beliefs. Not one bit.

I didn't come to these conclusions in a day or two. It was trial and error.

We make it work: one day at a time. We have a comfortable life as devoid of conflict -- as much as possible.

We make it work because his beliefs are about him, not me and mine are about me, not him.

Everyone finds their own way -- sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.

My best wishes to you.

My hats off to your for being able to co-exist in close quarters with someone who holds such different beliefs. I wasn't and haven't been able to pull that one off.

thingsithink Wrote:
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> My hats off to your for being able to co-exist in
> close quarters with someone who holds such
> different beliefs. I wasn't and haven't been able
> to pull that one off.


It's a process, in my experience, mostly of trial and error! :-) Eventually, I realized that I could make religion a non-issue and respect my husbands rights to his beliefs. I don't believe in the beliefs, and have no need to try to change any of his. I have no negative emotions about any of it. His severe health issues keep him from attending, but that doesn't diminish his beliefs or his spiritual witness that's it's true. Not one bit!

We are in our 70s and I want to make sure his and my days are as tolerable as possible with humor and fun. An attitude of gratitude goes a long ways.

And yes, I am a bit of a golden red head, with the help of "cover the gray" Clairol! :-)
I am on Facebook and know many of the former LDS from RFM.

...Because as a practicing Mormon who is the head of the household it is his church duty, directly from God, to convert and save all the members of his household, starting with his wife. As a practicing Mormon, he could not possibly "accept" that his wife has simply rejected the "Gospel" and he must just learn to live with it. Surely, he must understand that as an apostate you must have been deluded by Satan, the Great Deceiver. No TBM priesthood holder can simply accept this perilous state of affairs. He must be praying constantly, in close consultation with his Bishop and appointed priesthood leader, that you will once again come to see the light.

And that is why I find your summation of such a happy arragngement so utterly unconvincing.

There are all sorts of Mormons. SusieQ is lucky to have found one who has some tolerance.There are some out there. It takes two to make a marriage work.

John Wesley Wrote:
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Well, your analysis of how you think it should or would work is completely in error in our case.

My husband is not interested in exercising any dominion over me in our home righteous or other wise. He does not show any indication that there is any need to believe that Satan is deluding me either. I do find that quite humorous though! If he ever did, he keeps it private. He would not insult me with that kind of thing. He has much more respect than that! :-)

Like I have said dozens of times before: there are as many different kinds of Mormons as there are Mormons. My husband is not that kind of fundamentalist, Letter of the Law Mormon that you described. In fact, I only recall knowing a few men like that! Most of them can't get away with that kind of stuff with women of today anyhow!
He prays privately if and when he wants. That is none of my business.

He does not share our private home life with the bishop or anyone else, particularly in the LDS Church and neither do I. That's very important, in my view. The church leaders have no place on our marriage. He is emphatic about that also! He has seen what their meddling has done to other people. They make a horrible mess.

He is an excellent example of living the 11th Article of Faith. I would hope more men and women in split families would do the same. What a shame when they do not.

So, you are incorrect in your analysis -- 100%. I am so glad I don't know any men or women like you described.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 10:44PM by SusieQ#1.

You, sir are wrong. I am in the same situation as this woman. I am the unbelieving spouse, he is the TBM. Actually, we're both more towards the NOM mindset. He's been aware of the historical underbelly but doesn't think about it. He lets me determine my own level of activity, which is just SM right now. He has said over and over that the church has NOTHING to do with our marriage. In turn, while he is on his current deployment, I make sure our kids go to all church meetings on Sunday. Once they each graduate high school, they can determine their own level of activity. I do my best to not bash the church when I express my concerns about mostly social issues like women being second class citizens, etc. It takes work but can be done.

Brilliantly said. I am in the same situation. I realized the Mormon Church was hogwash years ago, but I am compelled to participate by a TBM spouse who makes this a very clear requirement of marriage. Can't take your steps yet, but maybe someday.

ForcedToBeMorg Wrote:
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>
Thank you for your kind words. It's a matter of timing, and planning, in my experience. I tried several things that only made things worse, then I got smart....fast! :-) We do what we think is necessary for the greater good - the preservation of the family !

Thanks for reposting this, SusieQ. I'm going to save it this time. :-)

My DH is BIC TBM RM, but totally inactive. He still believes, though. I converted some 10 years ago, after he and I began dating (we're an AARP age couple now). Roughly 3 years ago, I discovered the truth about TSCC. I've never told DH of my discoveries or my unbelief, but I went inactive, too.

Someday, though, I will want to tell him I no longer believe so that I can live a more authentic life. I won't need to tell him why I no longer believe, other than I don't. I won't want to change his beliefs, because his beliefs are a core element of who he is. He's a good person; so am I. And your post, when I am ready, I think will help me/DH&me on that path to living authentic lives.

This is a tough road. I know because I have been traveling it myself for 35 years. I agree with you completely on what the basics need to be to make a relationship like this work. Even now, though, it isn't easy. Part of that is me, but I know that unless my wife sees what I see, I will always be "fallen" one. But that can crumble to the mighty forces of love and laughter if I'm strong enough to wield them.

Again, congratulations! You've done good!

I think what you are describing is one individual experience, not sure how much of it can really be applied by others. I chose not to 'play the cards I was dealt', rather I folded and demanded a re-shuffle, and I am so very glad that I did.

I tried to also more or less "make it" with a cultural Mormon at one point in my so far short, but full life. We dated when I was 19--him 21 at BYU-I. We dated once again when I was 22. We had both graduated..lived in different states..we dated long distance for a little over a year. I had a connection with him. I thought... hey maybe I can so this. he can do the Mormon thing and maybe eventually he will join me and that will be it...have some cute kids..be happy. I really had no vision for the future. I was living from moment to moment.. Looking back--I froze. I was a fraction of the true me in my heart.

After a lot of good reflections on who I was on the inside I came to some certain conclusions on what I do when I can no longer be that person I have outgrown...I plan my escape....that is within my personality type, I suppose....I will not thrive there...I say my goodbyes or just go...it's happened many times and has brought me to this point. I am so grateful for these buffering/molding life experiences.

I liked most of the advice you gave in your post Susie Q, I know you mean completely well... I have read many of your posts over these past three years... but had to share some of my thoughts.

There will be people that discover the church isn't true down the road in their lives--like you and will be in the same boat as you. Your advice helps a lot, I am sure, and I also enjoyed reading it.

Mormonism has degrees in the Celestial Kingdom also though and I hope your guy is okay by not inheriting the highest one-- Although, It doesn't really matter because it was something that was invented by a man not too long ago. It's something that just because some one was born into..doesn't mean he/she can't shake it.

My gullible ancestors are not to blame, but when does the madness stop?? --With us, me, with generation Y...with all of us that want it.

Change is uncomfortable and especially, I understand in your 70's. I can't relate because I am 25 but marvel and try to respect older people... We are all the same on the inside and see this more and more every day. I feel it's never too late for a showdown of hearts.

I congratulate you on breaking free and discovering the truth concerning Mormonism.

Science has come so far and we need to recognize what it re-claims. It calls for change, the change I believe is needed is a Passion for that change...meaning to me.. good/interesting education for all and people spreading actual scientific truth ...it will undo the shackles that religion in general invokes/binds.

It isn't just about me and reclaiming my life... maintaining my happy realm and stopping there. I have too many family members that are currently being brainwashed...so I take the Mormon church very personal and when you write things like laadeedaa it's cultural. I can't help myself to respond and say...no, it's more than that to me. It is about helping those that are caught and trapped. It is about the kids in China...all over the world.... the people working in factories to supply our 'fUN tHiNgS'.


That type of change and hope is what fuels me...pick the pieces up but why continue to endorse it. If you continue to associate with it....(rug sweeping, elephant in the room ignorance) then that is telling the Mormons that just maybe you will come back to the cult. Their true doctrine is more than some seem to know or care to recognize.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2012 05:49AM by holistic.

I thought that was very thoughtful and deep holistic. I feel much the same. I am glad there are 25 year olds out there like you. Gives an old cynic like me hope.

Thank you blueorchid, that means a lot to me. Those are my thoughts on the world but I just can't seem to put them in motion. I out right talk about it in public to people and often will stand up for something and then feel super sad because someone said this to me or that... I am getting stronger and learning when not to say stuff, in what setting. (Mormonism made me a tad socially awkward, I wasn't allowed to go to normal social settings- school things, yes. I never went to one party in high school, didn't drink till my sister showed me the way in the vegas... I am relearning how to be socially normal)

I was also bullied growing up by girls in my jr. high(a lot of them were LDS girls too) My dad was the outcast in his family, yet still his siblings and my grandparents loved him and always tried to include us. He had an even relationship with everyone. His side of the family is amazing...and close.

I was not active from 4th-9th grade in church, but went occasionally, I was very unsupervised but stayed out of and deep trouble. I hung out with my cool siblings a lot or played sports in the backyard. I had a good group of friends in elementary school but then by 9th grade, I felt like I could relate to maybe two or three people at school. My best friend from el.ed. school was now a cheerleader and therefore we were not close. Sad how that can happen.

My dad I think still believed in the church, he may still a little. We lived in a fairly nice double wide trailer (in a trailer community--uhh..park...lol) but still I got teased at school and always had clothes that were two sizes too big, ugly, holes etc. I was still semi popular, but not with the LDS crowd (this was Pocatello, ID) I moved with my aunt and uncle to Burley, ID. That saved me in high school, and that's where I become a true cultural living Mormon.

so I think my experiences have given me empathy, some understanding, and the bigger picture of what people are like.

I still have so much to learn, you are insightful too. take care!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 07:11PM by holistic.

What is the MAN IN THE RESTROOM story? Very curious.....

Susie was good enough to share her experience with me a couple of years ago when I ran into my first love again. He is TBM, although somewhat open minded, and I had left the church 8 years ago and was not about to go back or pretend for anybody. I was in turmoil, so it was good to hear a success story.

I have now been married to my sweetheart for just over a year. It has gone well, he will even make me coffee in the morning! He knows that it has become something of comforting morning ritual for me. The home teacher stopped by unannounced exactly ONCE, and I read him the riot act. He won't do it again. He calls and I take the opportunity to leave for a while (my choice) or he sees my husband at church.

We accept that we will never agree on religion and a few other issues, but we also know we have something special together, and will enjoy growing older together. We had planned to get married in 1984, but I got cold feet. 26 years went by, and we weren't going to pass up the chance to finally be together

We are happy as clams. Thanks Susie, for the great example!

To clarify a few points: I changed my mind about believing in Mormonism in my middle to late 50's. Initially it was a bit difficult to come to an understanding between the two of us. We've made this work successfully for well over 13 years.


I empathize with those of you that are trying to make a difference of religious views work when one changed their mind!
It doesn't always work.

I understand that, sayhitokolobrme. Best wishes for your happiness!

I take the position that any religion anyone wants to believe in is valid and acceptable. I don't care what the beliefs and rituals and traditions are. I respect and honor anyone's RIGHT to believe in their Mormon faith, heritage, and culture.

In my case it required that I not find fault with my husband for his religious but recognize that he cherished them just as I had in the past. holistic: We don't allow any teaching or doctrine to destroy our marriage, home, or relationship. Those are just too important!!! Journey: he bought me a coffee maker for Xmas one year!

I am happy for those that find a way to make this kind of situation work in their family. It's not easy!

To sorcha: there are, in my experience, levels of "authenticity" and sharing that find their place in our lives, little by little. I have let go of any need to know everything my husband thinks about...everything. Just doesn't matter much to us. We can disagree.

MarkJ: I am a great believer in "the mighty forces of love and laughter" and a day doesn't pass that we don't laugh together. Can't beat that!

Great insights SuzieQ! Your words of wisdom were very helpful to me in dealing with my TBM wife when I left the church. There isnt a one size fits all solution to the many problems that arise when one spouse quits believing in the lies of mormonism while the other maintains their faith in it. I agree with the opinion that individual experiences have the most to do with what works and what doesnt. What worked for our marriage might not work in another situation. What worked in your marriage might not work in mine. But I do believe there are certain principles, when applied, can make the difference on whether or not a marriage can be salvaged! These principles are no guarranty, one way or the other, but absense of them increases the odds greatly that the marriage will fail! The princples of respect,patience, understanding,and above all,a commitment to love no matter the difference in religious belief. My wife responded negatively to anything i tried to tell her or convince her about mormonism. The walls would go up and an argument would ensue! But when my approach became more focused on showing and convincing her that I was still madly in love with her regardless of the change in my religious belief and that I was committed to the marriage, she felt less threatened. Eventually the walls became shorter and shorter until there came a point where she started to see things that she had never considered or recognized before. She came to the same conclusion that I had come to 3 years prior.But it was her decision and her conclusion, based on her own investigation. I realize now the more I said, the more she would dig in her heels and become defensive. I just got in the way!Now there is a spiritual element to my story that I would rather not elaborate on because frankly, it would serve no good purpose at this time. But I believe it was a major part of why my marriage survived and why my wife eventually left mormonism. I know, too well, that many marriages do not survive and that the outcome is quite different for so many who post here! We can hope that maybe our stories and our thoughts may some how help others on their journey! Yours certainly has helped me on mine! My continued best wishes for your husband and his health issues and for you!! Cheers!!

freebird: thank you for sharing your experience. You hit on the principles that I found have worked. You found your real power: sincere love and acceptance! Who can counter that?

Some become Right Fighters, engaging in name calling, etc. and won't let up, consequently the spouse "digs in" as you say and often turns against their spouse completely. Love turns to hate in some of those cases. Negativity won't work either.

How could she not listen to someone who was so devoted and loved her so much? There is a certain kind of attraction a woman feels when she is loved like that! Especially if she believes it!

I'm thrilled you can both be on the same page now. That works best, especially with children in the home.

Thank you for your kind words!:-)

Others have done it as well. It's good to hear your story and those of others when they post them. Sometimes it *is* the Mormon spouse who insists on having the marriage their way, but often ex-Mormons spouses insist, also, although their insistence isn't as overt. Instead of "the church says . . . " we say "that's not logical, that's not factual," etc. and keep pushing our spouse to see the world the way *we* do. I think that while we get the *facts* mostly right, we can miss the emotional attachment and meanings of church membership for the member spouse and either fail to address those feelings or dismiss them outright as unimportant as compared to the facts. Facts are important, but feelings usually determine whether or not things will work out.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2012 03:26PM by robertb.

Re: what...robertb Wrote:
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You make an important point regarding the power of the emotional attachment/bond, especially by the believing spouse. That is, in some cases, impossible to budge. Especially when it's accompanied with that all powerful spiritual witness. It all has it's roots in the generational heritage, culture, traditions, etc.

Yes, facts are important, but faith has the power to override facts.

I deal with all of that by recognizing those about my spouse, not me. A long time ago, I let go of any need to care about what his specific beliefs are in relationship to me. I know them like the back of my hand anyhow. I believed and lived them at one time also. But, they do not impact our relationship in a negative manner!

I have no need for him to think like I do about anything, believe like I do, understand the world the way I do. We are different people with very different backgrounds and education and interests. We cannot control our spouse's beliefs or thinking or make them into some kind of clone of our ideas.

He is the one that asked what I needed. Live the 11th Article of Faith I said. That's it. Works beautifully. Works both ways! :-)

11th Article of Faith
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2012 12:40PM by SusieQ#1.

For one thing, I chose well! :-) That helps! He's a good, kind, honest man with no guile!
I'm the feisty one that tends to go through life with a lot of gusto. My gusto has diminished lately though. Age is catching up with me. :-)

Every longterm marriage requires accepting a spouse's blindspots and living with their upbringing and their family history. That's realitiy.

Before I married, my DH said he was NOT marrying my family or my mormonism and he was not the slightest bit interested in tolerating it in our lives. I agreed to accept this because the idea suited me. I wanted a 100% mormon free life except for very limited possible exceptions which did not include having mormon strangers in the area stalk me for forty years.

I'm not terribly impressed with seeing things from a mormon point of view because I can do that in my sleep and I haven't been a mormon for coon's age.

There is nothing wrong with learning to adapt to mormon ideas and expectations. It's a choice that doesn't make a person somehow better or more ethical than those who choose otherwise.

It's easy to get into the mormon thinking mode in order to go along and get along with mormons, but many choose not to take that route. Afterall, the mormon church is racist, sexist, and homophobic. I am appalled by those major destructive issues and don't want to contribute to that kind of human suffering if I can help it.

It's no more honorable to bend and stretch to please mormons than to do it for other woman haters, racist organizations, or homophobic causes.

I know, I know, mormons claim they hold women in the highest esteem because of their superior spirituality and ability to produce offspring. That's an old line from victorian days. Nothing wrong with admiring me for those reasons, but I am more than that and won't support an organization which wouldn't allow me and other women equal respect as males with similar abilities.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2012 05:50PM by Cheryl.

To see bigotry from the bigot's perspective seems like total BS to me. I can just see someone saying "Oh, I completely see and understand why my spouse hates blacks because their skin is a different shade of brown".

It has also been my experience that it is rarely if ever the Mormon that tries to see things from other people's perspectives. I'm betting the whole "see things from their perspective" is a one way street.

I reach toward this ideal also. My biggest progress has been when he preaches at me to try and get me to argue, I'm silent. And if he pushes me to talk about how Mormons are persecuted I tell him Jesus doesn't want people to argue over him. That happened last night and it worked. Later I told him I love him and that his lips are so sweet! And I meant it too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 07:08PM by suckafoo.

suckafoo Wrote:
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I love your approach - sweet lips! :-) Somethings just aren't worth arguing about. You didn't take the bait: it's a Good Thing! :-)

I'm learning how, SusieQ! My triumphs are small but they are prevailing and it feels good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 09:53PM by suckafoo.

suckafoo Wrote:
It's the relationship, in my experience that is paramount. It's a living thing. It changes and grows and has surprises!